F67L

After watching this video and then trying most of those games, physics were as unconvincing as I remembered (in different ways) so I thought LFS must be able to represent the car better.

It started with wrestling a coffin-shaped experiment around Blackwood, trying to get the right feeling. And then it snowballed ...

This is what it looks like so far.



I hope to use this thread as both a progress report and to contribute some improvement suggestions and their justifications. Hopefully at the end of it there will be a released car!

One of the distinctive features of this car, and prominent for the in-car view, is the inset brake discs. I wanted to replicate the vented design (even though the drivers apparently didn't like them!).

I couldn't use the LFS editor discs because the 49's disc are inset too much (circa. 130mm front and 190mm rear) so I needed a solution.

This was before Scawen made the "Hub" sub-object available but I am glad I didn't have that option otherwise I wouldn't have found this ...

I defined the disc faces as "Brake" sub-objects which do not rotate - this may seem counter-intuitive but it means that I could use an image of a real disc with all it's reflections and shadows which would have looked wrong rotating. The illusion of rotating is provided by the ventilation holes which I defined in the wheel "Spoke" definition. The result looks really good in action!!



As I further develop the car I intend to redraw the ventilation holes as "Hub" sub-objects and also create a disc _ALP to allow a metal overlay so that the discs reflect the environment.

Improvement Suggestion
- A bigger range of movement for the disc offset (even though I didn't use them)

The introduction of "Hub" sub-objects allowed me to define a shape to represent a rotating universal joint going into the rear uprights It is not perfect but looks good from behind when racing. Ended up as 78 triangles but I think it is worth it. Now if I had an object that rotated with the wheel but didn't move with the suspension then I could do the gearbox end.



Improvement Suggestion
- A new type of sub-object that rotates with the wheel but doesn't move

Uprights
Because I can only define "half upright length", it is not possible to replicate the 49's geometry where the front upright is very "top heavy" and the upper ball joint falls outside the brake disc diameter and the lower within the "cup".



Initially I thought this would only affect the physics in camber gains which I could recover in other ways. As I learned more I realise the bigger effect is in relative roll-centre heights which are critical to handling balance.

The obvious difference is graphical where the cowling on the body needs to be lower so I can't quite get the nose shape the same. And because I wanted the same KPI of 12 degrees (to keep a reasonable scrub radius) the lower ball joint sits within the actual disc. I have tried to hide it but it is a bodge!



I thought rear end would be less of a problem but the packaging is very tight around those exhaust headers!! (TBD)

Pivots
On this and other cars the rose-joints at the inner end of the wishbones are at different widths which is not an option in LFSE.



Correct 3D positioning of all suspension pivots would obviously have some physics implications. Graphically, there is a big impact in packaging in tight areas - in this case there is a lot going on with suspension arms, drive shafts, shocks, exhausts, all in close proximity. Luckily my shocks are invisible

Tubes
Because some of the arms on the 49 are pressed and some are tubular it would be better if oval / round was selectable per tube.

It would be nice if material colours were available for the suspension arms eg. black / white / chrome or even better full textures.

Imagine if a thick tube could be added between thrust bearing and lower upright you could texture it with a spring and the whole thing would expand and compress as a simplified version of a coilover.

Additional
If you could define points in special draw that move with the upright then things like steering arms and anti-roll bars would be possible.

Improvement Suggestions
- (MAIN) Definable upright geometry (eg. lower length & upper length)
- Roll centre heights displayed on the suspension diagram
- Full 3D positioning of inner wishbone pivot points
- Oval / round selectable per tube
- Material selection for suspension tubes and eventually texturing
- Definable points that move with the upright in special draw (not just the default three)

Nice work and nice documentation! Well documented mods are pretty rare. Thanks for sharing the technical details and tricks

I really like your attention to detail, keep it up!

I am really looking forward to this.

I am still working this but am holding off from a few things in the hope (not expectation ) of some improvements to the LFS editor wheel and suspension definition systems in the next couple of months.

Meanwhile, there is plenty to be getting on with ...

One example is that I have decided to offer two configurations to give a some choice and variety on the grid. Hopefully these small differences together with some well chosen colour schemes will make the action seem more realistic:-

Classic

Yellow Ducted Aero Screen / Red Steering Wheel / White and Chrome Exhaust

Generic

More Conventional Screen / Black Steering Wheel / Dark Grey Exhaust

Always a challenge to get into the 12s!

this is a top job! My only suggestion is to add more ambient occlusion to the interior for a more realistic look.

Thanks! I will have a look at that when I do the next version. I guess it will all change with the new graphics that self shadow but I should be able to improve it for now.

Really well modelled vehicle.
Really hard to drive though... 5/5

Mods as good as these make me wonder if Scawen would consider at making some mods "official" content that ships with the game. Then they get established as supported content by the devs and can be relied upon to never be removed by the author if something happens.

Thanks for the nice comments guys!

Just the initial WIP version and I have a list of small things I want to improve but I am really happy with how it turned out.

this brings a new level of detail and quality

only downside is the standard setup, it is much too unstable, specially for casual drivers who just want a try

top job

Quote from turbofan :

only downside is the standard setup, it is much too unstable, specially for casual drivers who just want a try

Thanks. You may be right but I have tried hard to make it as driveable as possible but these were high power / low grip cars and they were very tricky in real life, which is why they started experimenting with wings the following year.

I think anyone who sticks with it should learn to enjoy it - I am right in the groove and LOVE driving it!!!

I see I really need to give more care to my Grand Prix Legend 65 mod and make a 1967 derivation of it so these two can compete together

I sincerely prefer (due to the lack of pedals) the GPL65 with 220bhp, much easier to control exiting corners.
The F67L with its monstrous 400bhp, for mouse users, accelerating out of a corner you need to up shift to be at around 4000RPM just to avoid any rear spin.

Anyway, here is the set I made for the F67L copying from Michal GPL65 a set made by AntonioExZip. I will also upload it to setups database.

It seems when you upload a setup in the forums, it is automatically archived under the car on the setup database. Nice touch

Quote from michal 1279 :

I see I really need to give more care to my Grand Prix Legend 65 ...

Yeah that was definitely an inspiration

Quote from cuni :

With the F67L with 400bhp, for mouse users, accelerating out of a corner you need to up shift to be at around 4000RPM just to avoid any rear spin.

I thought this would be difficult for mouse (and keyboard) drivers. Thanks for the setups - hopefully they will be a help for some people.

Whats the best way to pass time whilst the network is recovering....?


Setup used below

Well, I drove a bit and tuned a setup.
It should feel balanced and much easier to drive than the stock set, on wheel and mouse.
Good as it is for beginners, and for racers, a good basis to fine tune.

Quote from turbofan :

Well, I drove a bit and tuned a setup.
It should feel balanced and much easier to drive than the stock set, on wheel and mouse.
Good as it is for beginners, and for racers, a good basis to fine tune.

Super solid set, managed an even faster timed lap

Any chance of this car getting a full skin support?

Well the concept was to keep it simple as in '67 everyone ran with just their racing colours (stripes, nose) and this way anyone can do a quick number and choose colours in 5 mins. Plus you could also do logos and graphics within the roundel.

I guess I could come up with a way to support either approach - I will have a think.

(Really like when my cars are used in RTFR and Retro Cup )

Nice model and very well researched. Definetely not a certain 1967 Lotus
I had a go with this car and found the handling very sketchy. So I made a setup to compensate for my lack of skill. It adds a lot of caster to improve stability and wheel feedback. The suspension is set to squat down under power, so the sudden power oversteer is almost gone. Now you get a progressive transition from neutral handling to power oversteer. While the car does understeer more now, it will still rotate off the throttle. Trail braking is more controllable now aswell. It basically handles like the Wessex without downforce now.
I dont know how realistic this setup would be (especially the caster angle and the shock absorbers) but I think it could be included as a standard setup with the download to make the car more beginner friendly. Give it a go and tell me what you think!

Quote from LE_TANCKER :

Give it a go and tell me what you think!

I gave it a quick go - great setup and much easier to drive ...

I agree on the caster but I was using what the real car used. Apparently it was "up on it's toes", difficult to drive and required subtle inputs so maybe that's what the default setup simulates. Also, with the "old" physics (as I understand it) there is an unrealistically large amount of weight transfer so maybe that explains things further.

What I don't like is the way the car looks with your setup. This may be as much my fault as I modeled the car to sit right on the default setup and this is quite different.

Overall I don't think I will add it to the download. I think you are doing some clever stuff and I will try to learn from that when I do the setups for the new physics.

Quote from teeembo :

I gave it a quick go - great setup and much easier to drive ...

I agree on the caster but I was using what the real car used. Apparently it was "up on it's toes", difficult to drive and required subtle inputs so maybe that's what the default setup simulates. Also, with the "old" physics (as I understand it) there is an unrealistically large amount of weight transfer so maybe that explains things further.

What I don't like is the way the car looks with your setup. This may be as much my fault as I modeled the car to sit right on the default setup and this is quite different.

Overall I don't think I will add it to the download. I think you are doing some clever stuff and I will try to learn from that when I do the setups for the new physics.

Yeah, I just noticed that the front sits too high up with my setup. The AI seem to prefer the standard setup aswell, so it is technically faster overall (?). I'm going to do a few more laps and maybe get a better feel for the car.

I agree on the physics problem, but I believe it's the "old" tire model. There seems to be too much wheel slip before the traction breaks off completely. Works great on roadcars, but the lighter cars (on road tires) generally feel lose.

I guess I might post the last iteration of my set
It went more stable still, give it a try.

Quote from Eclipsed :

Any chance of this car getting a full skin support?

Skin support added but I have retained the separate number roundel. Hopefully this is the best compromise to retain the original concept of allowing quick and easy, unique colours with a number that can be created in any basic paint package and is high res.

How about an old school short distance Grand Prix race in London's borough with this death trap? Not sure if there are enough ambulance cars around today...



Attached the RTFR promo skin in case someone likes it to have even if it's design is a bit out of car's time.
Full event info and links to livestream: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/109134-341st-RTFR

Quote from Eclipsed :

... death trap? ...

Not sure it's the best combo from a pure racing point of view but it should be "interesting"

I hope people enjoy the challenge!!!

Quote from teeembo :

Not sure it's the best combo from a pure racing point of view but it should be "interesting"

I hope people enjoy the challenge!!!

anything is good on SO4R, even FBM

For those who missed - video on demand from today's race,works as a showcase for the car: