Quote from gezmoor :

All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then?

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

Well as for me, nothing really could drag me away from LFS since it has become a part of my life. That doesn't mean that im not trying other games but still and i guess for a very long time, LFS will remain on my harddrive and even more if its getting an "oldie" (for whatever reason) just like Test Drive 1 or S1 0.5F or something

About the competition part, watch the interview from SRT with Victor and specifically look out for statements regarding this matter. Also, have a look at LFS as it is right now and tell me if they really want to compete in any way. They could of course throw in a lot of content and some bugfixes, call it S2 Final or maybe S3 , make the mob happy and a shite load of money. But why are they not doing it? Because they have choosen a different path, their very own way of developing. I dont know, perhaps such a step is inevitable along the way but it certainly looks like there is still some time for all the other things with a much higher priority to take care of first.

Put yourself into their position for once and ask yourself if you want to get rushed by inpatient people and release an rather unfinished product or something that is certainly not comfirm with your personal ideas "just to make a _few_ more bugs" or do you choose to ingore this awkward circumstance for as long as you think its necessary and then come up with a proper product that perhaps not only blows yourself but also "everyone else" away?

Im repeating myself again and again, feels like going in circles so im not going any further on this subject. (I know, i said so earlier already, but now it really is enough :nod

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.

I've added some stuff regarding that matter to my signature and so im done with this once and for all.

/leaves this thread silently

Quote from MiniVan :

I'm married and have a child getting the fastest track times on lfs isn't my top thing right now

Well i wasn't really excluding anything (at least i tried not to). First things first, i understand and respect that. I also wasn't trying to compare my E-wiener with yours or such dumb thing. What i was actually referring to was the fact that people like you and some others in this and other simular threads, with a rather low milage and a rather low number of races are speaking about beeing bored and this and that needs to be changed/ added...or else. Please bear with me but im somehow unable to understand this line of thoughts.

Perhaps you're one of the kind that, regardless the lack of time, gets or got bored rather quickly (for whatever reason) and my guess is that for you and the people like you, nothing really is going to change that, perhaps not even in the long run. But yeah, i dont know you so i can only guess whats responsible for that, besides the lack of time that is.

Quote from MiniVan :

I hope it gets a major update, Cars, tracks. We just need a teaser to hold us over or something because I've been playing the same version of lfs for a while now.

Seriously & with all due respect but if i can trust those numbers and im actually referring to your LFSW profile then im under the impression that you're certainly not in the position to make such a statement. In addition to that, perhaps you should check your priorities and do something else.

Not that im not aware about the situation but since we aint got any informations (or lets say very little) about the current state of development and its progression its only fair to say that assuming into any direction is bare nonesense and a waste of time. Just because there are no news doesn't inevitably means that there is or isn't anything going on behind the scenes .

Quote from Macfox :

Why is this relevant to the discussion?

Well i was just guessing upon the numbers i've got available from you, such as online milage and forum activity (post count). With that in mind and seeing that you've been here for a long time, some of your comments doesn't make any sense (for me) somehow, at least when it comes to terms like "community engagement" & "participation". Again, im just guessing here and im not going to investigate nor getting any more into detail since its indeed not relevant to the actual discussion.

On the contrary, have a look at the people complaining about LFS, most of em are here for about 1- 3 years (or less) and the few that are here for even longer just got bored for serveral other reasons and/ or are still unable to understand the idea behind LFS.

Anyhow, i hope that i could bring my standpoint across within this thread and im not going to continue since we are going in circles at some point, if not already.

Ok here are just a few questions i’d like to ask into the “complainers” direction.

• When did you joined LFS? (demo, forum, licenced right away, it doesnt matter)
  

• Have you ever considered and even understood the facts that are basically responsible for the rather slow progress lately? (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... iganOfLFSInterview436.flv
  

• When exactly did you got bored and perhaps, why in particulary?
  

[Examples]

• Do you think that your motivation went away because you've used the game quite excessively or maybe even for the exact opposite reason?
  

• Or do you think that it never really was your thing after all, no matter what kind of variation you’ve tried?
  

• Was perhaps the lack or even the superior number of good competition the reason?
  

• Have you tried a lot of variations the game offers or where you basically just doing one thing? (hotlapping, curcuit track/ rally racing, oval racing, cruising, drifting or drag racing et cetera (in no particular order )
  

[/Examples]

• Do you think that any significantly changes will bring you back to LFS or even bring back the joy from how it was at the beginning?
  

• In addition to the previous one, do you think that it could be possible or must a requirement to reach a certain stage with LFS once again so that you can enjoy it just like in the beginning?
  

• Do you have still faith in the project and ScaViEr, or do you just follow and believe into yours and/ or others assumptions?
  

• Are these question of any help in any way, perhaps to bring more transparency into your personal situation and maybe even this particual problem?
  

You dont need to answer those questions here. But if you do, please be honest and try to stay objectively.




Personally, i have my ups and downs as well. But thats how it goes with everything in life and no moaning is going to change that, usually.

Whats wrong with giving a game time to grow and see how it evolves over the years? Whats wrong with the idea and concept of ScaViEr to take a path far beyond from where and for what everyone else is heading to/ for?

Maybe im wrong and exaggerate it, making this sim/ game bigger then it actually is or supposed to be and maybe its all true and ScaViEr gave up on it after all. But at least i can say that i've made use of this product in many ways, for a comparably really long time and as much as i could and wanted to, resulting in a lot of enjoyment, great races & companies and long lasting friendships.

Regarding to that, there is so much more then just LFS and after reading this and many other simular threads im under the impression that some people really aint got anywhere else to go

http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... iganOfLFSInterview436.flv

Although (and regardless, according the the facts within) its rather old, im wondering whats so hard to understand in this interview.

Quote from Macfox :

~snip~

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head.

Last edited by 510N3D, Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:19.

Quote from Bean0 :

A really simple one.
Citroen AX GTi style bodykit.

simple but nicely done. Thanks for sharing

Quote from farcar :

So we both agree that the development cycle is slowing.

No doubt about it. But both of us are only seeing it from a limited point of view. (going into detail about that soon within this reply)

Quote from farcar :

My opinion on the other hand is that the slowing development cycle will eventually lead to a decline in this great simulator through a slower uptake, and existing racers leaving. Enlightened?

Enlightened? Well slightly. "Eventually" is the keyword and i guess that anyone that once fell in love with LFS and understood its way of development will respect it, stick to it and return to it. Everyone else is just having fun (within a short period of time perhaps) or haven't got what i've just mentioned above.

Quote from farcar :

In regards to wishful thinking, the solutions to the (imho) 'problem' would be more developers or more development hours from Eric and Victor. I'm assuming Victor and Eric aren't working full time on LFS... Clearly these decisions are made by them based on their desires (do they want to spend more hours), and economic feasability (will they make more money?). They're none of my business, but being a fan, I do think about these things.

Since you're basically just assuming here (as stated) i'll partly skip that part. All i could offer are assumtions as well and according to my observations, Victor has been quite active (LFSW hotlap analyzer and several supportive forum avtivities regarding leagues and so on)

Not sure about Eric after all. Im hoping for the best and im prepared for the rest. Period(.)

Regarding Scawen, im sure he's got a handful of stuff on the "to do list" (as same as Victor and Eric i guess) and since they ain't telling us anything (for several reasons (excluding the Scirocco thingy)) they're doing, either way regarding development i guess its fair to say that assuming that they are inactive or anything in that respect is...respectless or simple down to a lack of informations. (if i made myself clear this way ^^)

Quote from farcar :

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I will...
A couple of years ago, I had no problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia. In the last 6-12 months I have had lots of problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia.
So it's not living outside Europe I'm referring to, it's a perceived decline in numbers on Australian servers

Alright, fair enough, i was just guessing here and not really having any evidence at hand to prove anything, either way. However, it could be a sight but certainly not a proof regarding the actual matter, right?



(Im not a fanboy (open for any (valid) inputs), i just love LFS and learned to respect it and the way it's beeing developed)

Last edited by 510N3D, Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:50.

Quote from farcar :

Yes I have.

I was merely stating a fact; that patches have become less frequent over time. I understand that there are reasons behind this.
The fact that there are valid reasons for slower development output, doesn't solve the problem though.

In regards to server populations, I don't have any numbers to show. It's just that from Australia I can never seem to find decently populated local race servers.
I never used to have such problems.

In case you really understood the reasons behind it you should know what to expect (wishfulness ftw) . And this is why im unable to see a problem somehow but perhaps you could try to enlighten me in that respect (once again).

About server populations once again, i think that anyone that is not living within the european time zones has got a problem, every now and then, finding a proper server to play at. But since im actually living in europe, im of course just guessing here.

Quote from farcar :

I would argue that LFS has 'changed' over the years with lower frequency of patch releases. Maybe that's why the complaints are louder?

For the record, I rarely play LFS at the moment because of this stagnation. I'm still a huge, huge fan, but think that the development cycle needs to be sped up for it's long term survival. If the next patch doesn't have significant new content and enhancements, or there is another huge gap between patches I fear that things will really begin to drop off in terms of online server populations etc.

Let's hope it turns out OK!

Im afraid that you haven't considered the expositional factor of such a project and this is why i strongly disagree with your first assumption/ statement. About the second part, regarding "online server populations", i really haven't seen any drop in that respect, at least according to my personal observation. Maybe Victor could offer a proper graph which should show about a thousand (give or take) people each day for the past couple of years (excluding major patch cycles that is). However, please read my previous comment if you haven't already and take it into consideration.

Last edited by 510N3D, Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:37.

Quote from zeugnimod :

This should be posted as the 2nd post in every thread like this.

Is it just me or is this thread more civilized than most other threads on this matter, though?

im supprised that i actually agree with you at something. And no, you're not alone.

people would come and go no matter how frequently patches would be released. On the contrary, some people even would get fed up by new stuff beeing released on a more frequent basis and create simular threads like this one (or worse). In the end, its not the responsibility of the developers to take care of their community (in this particulary aspect) which is an inpossible task anyway if you'd ask me. They are doing their thing and sharing it for a small amount of money. They made it clear numerous times how development is beeing taken care of and it should be an obvious fact that with basically just three people involved at the core, development is going to be comparably slow (and much more effective compared to bigger projects if you'd ask me). I've made my point about this matter several times in the past and im bored of it somehow.... These kind of threads, regardless the intention behind it will always turn up, regardless the progress of development.

Hoping for the best and prepared for the rest.

Last edited by 510N3D, Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:02.

mmmmh candy !!!

Well Android and Moose, i've made my point i guess. Im not here to talk everything nice but at the same time, after all the good times i had over there i tend to ignore most of the downsides. I've made my experiences within the past few years at the CLC & LTC cruise servers (never really tried any other one) while they where improving, and you dont. So i do know what im talking about where apparently, you dont. Forum threads are certainly not going to give you the full picture about that matter and i find it funny that people are still falling for those half-truths.

Quote from AndroidXP :

It's a perfect example of thinking like a box.

I like the irony of this variation, especially in combination with what you've said in this thread all together.

/leaves this thread quietly

Quote from The Moose :

Cruising is where kids that have no racing ability hang out and talk endless garbage. A glorified chat room with cars if you will.:hide:

I like to cruise every now and then, so what? I had many races, curcuit track and oval and i like this cruise thing as some sort of alternative. After all, its up to you if you're capable to make something out of it and who you're driving with. Besides, the response of yours certainly leads me to the impression that you have got a lack of imagination and creativity. But im just guessing here

Quote from AndroidXP :

Cruising (d)evolved from "Cops 'n' Robbers", which was originally some kind of pseudo city layout made from barriers on the autocross track, with some people playing police and other robbers that had to get away from them while navigating the barrier-city. Think NFS Hot Pursuit + city layout + superior driving physics + inferior crash physics. This was quite fun as it required skill from both police and robber to navigate the city fast without crashing and losing/not losing the other. This was sometimes accompanied by role playing traffic and innocent drivers and inventing different reasons for why someone was being chased by the police.

Then someone somewhere had the genius idea to remove the chases (read: fun) and call it cruising. Now you can pretend to make your daily mundane virtual drive to work, stand around a bit and earn virtual cash to buy/repair your virtual car. Sounds exciting, huh?

so when exaxtly was it that you've vistited one of them major cruise servers (CLC, LTC)? At least according to your reply, you've never been there at all.


As for me, i had a lot of fun going round with some of my teammates and other people in a train of 5+ cars. Waiting for eachother in case someone crashed out, cruising at "normal" speed, pushing like hell once the tires are up to temperature or getting chased by quite skilled "virtual police officers". Its still oldskool, but not 24/7 and at every single cruise server, unfortunately. Administration is very important as well and i believe the two server mentioned above are doing a very good job in that respect.

Quote from franky500 :

It comes as a nice distraction as far as i am concerned. Something to do when you just want to chill but keep your hands busy .

Its kind of like marmite though when you think about it... you either love it or you hate it.

- i have seen you struggling a little last time you've chased me :P

- thats a +1



Cruising in LFS is the perfect example of thinking outside the box.

Quote from SamH :

I hope next year Massa gets it. He's a brilliant driver who has properly grown into his shoes now, and I'd like to see his efforts rewarded.

+1

Besides that, i don't think that Hamilton really deserved the championchip after all, for several reasons. However, congratulations to him, McLaren Mercedes and GB.

omg glock...

/leaves disgusted

GO MASSA GO !!!

well thats the point i guess. Its a game and so there is no need to use a helmet is there? (at least not for safety)

Quote from sgt.flippy :

Too bad about the second guy without a helmet..

how come? This race was on a public server and not an event if you're reffering to realism. I dont bother anyway since i was the third car

check

without reading any previously added comments:

all the best for Massa !!!

erm...?

(i guess LFS is a screenshot generator (as well) after all.