Quote from PMD9409 :

Well it has 730hp and they are planning on making the RWD version. I find that rather humorous though as they are having problems with that exact type of car with the NTM..

Any more info/speculation on that? I haven't heard anything on the NTM since Eric Hudec's update on vulcanization.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Which is exactly what they want to do. They don't do the marketting or hype like iRacing does, they simply have screenshots and later on when you drive it, you will be able to understand it yourself.

Plus imagine if they said they would be better than iR in the tire/physics department. Imagine the amount of iR trolls that would bash it just to bash it, not knowing a thing about it.

Here is the hot air marketing I'm referring to:

Quote :

Kunos Simulazioni has a large fan base of racers who are very adamant about your physics engine being the best that there is. So, in terms of physics, what is it that you do differently (or better) that sets you apart from your competition?
Marco Massarutto – [...] since the beginning we have always been focused on the physics model; but, we didn’t invent the “physics”. Everything responds to physics laws; you just need to know these laws to reproduce it, if you really want.
It’s hard to say why or where we might or might not be “better” than our competitors. We do things in a way that makes sense to us and feedback from the community is that what we do seems to make sense for them as well. Racing simulators are not all about science and data. There is a huge amount of trial and error to get right all those things that can’t be measured in real life. Probably what makes us different is the amount of man hours that go into the basic driving feel and validation compared to the other elements that have to be pursued in a driving simulator.

The tire model is probably the most crucial aspect to any racing simulation, but also the most difficult to replicate. Can you give us a brief overview of the process that you guys go through in creating your tire model?
Marco Massarutto – Again it is science and study applied to observation and iterative development. Stefano spends an insane amount of time with all the tyre books and tyre data he can get his hands on. The aim is to find patterns, turn it into a formula and then turn it into code. But the process doesn’t end up there; driving “feel” is an essential part of the development, if it doesn’t feel right, it all starts up again.

Kunos deserves credit for raising the bar for the best tire model in 2006, but Massarutto (already infamous for his hype of nkPro), is avoiding two direct questions on the tire model, the most important part of a modern simulation. Unless I'm missing something, there is no tecnical/detailed info on Assetto Corsa's tire model out for the public to read. I compare this with the treasure of technical info divulged during the last year by David Kaemmer and Eric Hudec, even when that was against their short-term marketing interest (something for which I'm thankful to them).

Quote from PMD9409 :

Later this year I know iRacing are supposed to go and rescan Silverstone. Will be hectic having people "comparing" the two versions.

Looking forwar to such comparisons. And most of all, to the comparison with iR NewTireModel. (In a recent interview, AS spokesperson Massarutto avoided two direct questions and just blattered a bunch of hot air).

Quote from DeKo :

I think I overall prefer road racing, but the F1 car is broken, which is mainly what I'm interested in running. High downforce at Spa/Road America is a joke, and with HDF it's not very fun to drive.

Interesting. Has there been any discussion/explanation in the forums of what in the NTM is causing the Low DF setups to be incompetitive?

Quote from Jshort :

Quote from carfetish :

This NTM is going to let iRacing go viral http://www.nogripracing.com/fo ... =1527127&postcount=48

Now LFS and nkPro have a lot of work to do, physics-wise. (rF2, on the other hand, seems never having even made a serious effort in tire modeling).

I still think iracings new tire model is behind rF2 and netkar in "feel". I'm having fun with the daytona prototype though.

This is from Luke McLean, #5 in the 2011 World Championship:

Quote from Luke McLean :

This build is exactly what I have been pushing for on the forums for a couple of years. Focusing on what we have, and iRacing have had a mega breakthrough, and to be honest have buried every other sim with this patch.

This NTM is going to let iRacing go viral http://www.nogripracing.com/fo ... =1527127&postcount=48

Now LFS and nkPro have a lot of work to do, physics-wise. (rF2, on the other hand, seems never having even made a serious effort in tire modeling).

Impressive how a subtle lateral/vertical force coordinate transformation bug was screwing things up in the previous NTM builds. I think this post from nogripracing perfectly sums up the mood for this historic step fw on the NTM:

Quote from Jack B :

I'm stunned by how good the Skippy and the C6R drive.... This is easily the biggest step forward for the NTM yet. I expected it would be better, but not this much better.

Those cars are so easy to drive under the limit now. So predictable. Terrific low speed grip. Tons of feedback on the tires. You can adjust so much mid turn. Truly feels like you must be perfect to be fast, but if you're not perfect it won't bite you unless you really blow it.

I'd say Safety Ratings will rise on these two cars for sure, because the slower guys will probably be much safer. Maybe not faster, but they'll have some amazing nose to tail races.

Fast guys may find the razor's edge just as challenging. Hard to explain. You have to drive these cars now. Way past my expectations....

Even the guys who've dogged the previous NTM version are impressed. It's kind of surreal. What's next. Peace in the Middle East?

Eric Hudec on this iteration of the NTM:

Quote :

There will be more grip, per say, with high sliding speeds is probably the biggest thing. The compounding we think works better, although not exactly as we'd like yet. Plus a bunch of little improvements that add realism. It is still a work in progress and we've made strides, we think, even after what's about to come out comes out.

Quote :

I think the fall off should be higher with the top level oval cars. They will generate more heat now. Peak slip angles are lower , where optimal vehicle sideslips at the intermediate tracks will be in and around 3 to 4 degrees. Not much to say about longitudinal that's different than lateral as it'll be stiffer too, but more forgiving beyond the peak.

Quote :

And with regard to the OP thread title: One of the major points of the NTM is to allow for us developers to more easily develop good working tires. And so far it's been true; right now it's much easier to make compounds and constructions than it was with the OTM. It'll just get easier as the model develops.

Quote :

Tire wear does not equal tire degradation. This is a misconception propagated in every broadcast of every racing series across the world. Now, I'm not saying it can't lead to blistering etc. But in and of itself it doesn't make you slower.

Quote :

Why do racing tires have 2mm of thread depth? Why do race teams who are allowed to shave their tires do so? It's because with less thread depth the tires are stiffer and generate less heat which allows them to make more grip. In actuality, I think the top level oval cars have too much tread wear, as it's helping cool the tires and keeping time fall off less than it should.

Quote from PMD9409 :

DK could be smart in knowing most of how the tire reacts. I mean he literally quoted a book about tire physics in his thread...

Could you quote here that post?

Interesting comment from the nogripracing forum, where a top split driver says the Beta NTM used to drive realistic on the edge:

Quote from DewCrew88 :

Which is why the Beta was great, the car drove realistic on the edge. The edge was very sharp and defined, you knew in your mind when you screwed up exactly why. Whether i was going to snap loose or start to push, I could feel it anticipate it and if it happened correct all in a tangible way.

Overall the upcoming improvements seem to be:
-additional fixes to sidewall (torsional) stiffness calculations
-breakthrough in the modeling of tread compound properties, those that cause temps to oscillate around "tire warmers temps" and "working temps" (for road/softer compounds)

He talked about heat air-convection coefficients, but it seems it's not clear yet how to improve them. An issue that he didn't seem to address was the discussion on the large discrepancy with real ideal tire pressures.

I agree with what DK said here:

Quote :

Sometimes we get some really good data that we know is correct, and it leads us to an unhappy place. The only way out is to figure out what’s wrong with other data that we don’t know so well. We for sure are not going to change the model back to being more wrong just because we like it better that way. Then we’d never learn anything, and we wouldn’t make any progress.

That applies exactly to what happened when they released a physics improvement for the Radical and the Mazda (I think was back in 2008), that as a side-effect made them handle terribly, as it opened a "pandora box" of other not so well modeled effects. Wrongs were compensating each other, so when one was fixed, the other(s) become more apparent. But this is the only approach to make progress in the long run.

Quote from JasonL220 :

Hi,

All he essentially said he's using the brush model technique, well done sir.

Is this trolling? He never mentioned brush models in this post, not even implicitly. The only other time when he mentioned brush models was to say that he wasn't using them.

Quote from DaveWS :

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1808602.page

Is it this?

Quote from Chris Page :

Minor sim, web, and infrastructure updates.

Monday, 29-AUG-2011 GMT

EDT (-4)
0400 Hosted Sessions
1000 Service Down
1400 Up Service

GMT
0800 Hosted Sessions
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1800 Up Service

AEST (+10)
1800 Hosted Sessions
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Hosted sessions will not be allowed that would overlap the service maintenance period. For example, six hours before the service is down you can create a hosted session that lasts four hours, but not one that lasts for hours 6th

All times are subject to change.

Time zone converter:
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Does "1600" make you say "what?"
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Any trace of Dave K.'s NTM post?

Quote from PMD9409 :

Okay last one for tonight. Reading up on the old court battle iRacing went through before its actual creation. I remember when this happened. I wasn't a huge fan of what was "First Racing" at the time. The attacked US Pits, one of my favorite websites.

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1715170.page
http://www.business-litigation-associates.com/iRacing.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/200 ... ur.net/viewtopic.php?t=52

Quote from TMcArthur :

John Henry has been refering to Tim R and myself as "dumb and dumber" in the First-Racing.net Beta Testing Forums.

While calling himself the "Minister of Change" in those same forums.

I thought this was humorous enough to share

haha

Quote from JasonJ :

http://members.iracing.com/jfo ... t/75/1712965.page#3684408



Mind you it's hard to follow news when it's lost in that hopeless offtopic forum.

Thanks Jason.. It seems the next WC Spa race will still be with the OTM. It would have been nice to make a comparison with the february race.

Quote from Tony Gardner :

Sorry about the winking.

Release notes available tonight
Our plan is to start the build tomorrow morning, morning meaning the morning in the eastern time zone of the United States. Tonight as defined as after 6:00PM in the same time zone.

For the future, we traditionally have 4 major software updates per year, and often refer to them as builds. By design, they are scheduled to be done in what we call week 13, which is the week in between our standard 12 week seasons. They typically could be done anytime during that week depending on a variety of factors. During that week, we like to schedule the members build in advance based on how we see the timing of our release process playing out to provide notice to members so as to try not to interupt any racing they might be planning. However, although our last 4 builds have gone smoothly and according to our initial schedule, sometimes we find something we don't like in the 11th hour or something we think we can make better last minute but then we have to go through the whole release process again but we think worth doing it and delaying a a day or two so long as we get build out in the 13th week.

Good Racing

http://members.iracing.com/jfo ... t/75/1497660.page#3608512

Quote from PMD9409 :

Also note that they are not initially releasing the C6R with the NTM anymore. Instead the Skippy has taken its place.

Anybody would be so kind to post the full announcement and/or the build notes?

Edit: announcement found at racedepartment.com

Quote :

I updated you guys last Wednesday about the cars we are targeting for release this week and I wanted to give you more current information.

I said that we had the Vette on our target list but we have decided to focus on the Skip Barber car instead of the Vette as it is looking to be further along in development. Don't worry about the Prototype and GT series having a car with the old tire model in it, there will be no issues with that.

So as of right now we are looking to release:

Impala A
Impala B
Silverado
Ford GT
HPD ARX-01C
Skip Barber Formula 2000

We have an awesome teaser video for the LMP2, Ford GT and Suzuka going up this afternoon so stay tuned to our iRacing youtube channel. Terrific work by Christian Braun! And yes, we do realize that the opening frame says the content is available now but we did this because it will be in a few days making it more relevant instead of "soon"....

Steve

PS. Who said it was impossible they were gonna have new and old TM in the same series?

More from Steve:

Quote :

We have the new tire model on all of the cars at this point and some are already very good but some need more tuning. We expected that the Vette was going to be good to go but we are not happy with the balance and suspect that their is something deeper that is off in the aero or chassis and don't have time to find it for a release this week.

Honestly, release notes have not even been worked on yet and will come out probably the evening before or day of the build. Everyone is flat out right now and many worked through the weekend to get this build done this week. We are probably looking at Wednesday or Thursday for the build at this point.

Steve

Last edited by carfetish, Mon 25 Jul 2011, 23:00.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Well it was funny to see articles about the SRF and V8 let out, yet their NTM wasn't even done yet? How could people review it so well and it not even be done? Seems quite strange...

Is there any article/forum comment reviewing the ntm on the V8? (links please!) I've only read the "iStig" on the SRF..

Quote from Hyperactive :

It has been said that the 2 new cars might (=probably) not make it to the next release and may be released some time afterwards

Yes that one, which has changed with today's update.

They are also releasing these five more cars in July, so they're actually ahead of schedule

Last edited by carfetish, Wed 20 Jul 2011, 19:32.

Good that the two new cars are being released with the 13th week build instead of 2 weeks later as previously announced.

After today's dev meeting, did Steve Meyers said anything, particularly regarding the cars that will have the NTM next week?

Quote from JasonJ :

Excerpt from: iRacing 2.0 release timeline
NB: 13th week starts = ~25th Jul 2011

Full quote:

Quote :

I have seen a bunch of posts speculating on the release date of iRacing 2.0 and in particular when all the cars will be done so I thought I would post a short update on how development is going on iRacing 2.0.

One of the best aspects of our development model is that we DON’T have to cram everything into a once a year build and can roll new things out when they are completed so in effect iRacing 2.0 will be an extended launch. We will likely have half a dozen or so cars done for the 13th week (mix of both road and oval cars) with the new tire model and will plan on breaking from our traditional stance of not releasing physics changes during an active season and roll out cars with the new tire model as they are done.

Yes, we had hoped to get all of the cars transitioned over to the new model for the 13th week build but as you could see with our development of the new Nationwide car we encountered some technical hurdles that put us behind. The good news is that once we get the first dozen or so cars done the rest should follow very quickly.

I will plan to give everyone another update next week with more information on what cars we likely will release first and how development is going on this exciting 2.0 release.

I'm particularly curious about when the F1 championship will be affected by it, and to see the impact on skyppy and mazda.

From the iStig review, it seems the Spec Racer Ford will be ready first. That leaves room for 2 other road cars to be relased this month. Anyway next week we'll know which ones.

Last edited by carfetish, Fri 15 Jul 2011, 15:04.

Quote from bbman :

I don't think they got the bug out in time, the shaking is still in there... Driving slowly (under 10 kph) it wobbles from side to side and the FFB goes nuts with vibration... Also, when you stand still and turn the wheel a certain amount (to the left), it goes to full lock on its own - with a road setup...

Interesting, it would be cool if you could post a video going under under 10 kph..

Btw, they said it was important for them to understand the root cause of the numerical instabilities. So possibly, after they fixed most of it and found the cause of the rest, they decided it was close enough to flawless for a preview release.

Quote from aoun :

Was just in a MX5 cup race, started 8th, leading by lap 5... only to get taken out by a drunk back marker. The son of this back marker was on my ass in 2nd place apologizing to me that his dad was was drunk. Felt like dad takes out leader for son in 2nd.

Pathetic. Protest it, they're probably gonna do it again (when will iRacing abolish that PG13 & family-friendly thing?).

A few questions on the NTM:

• How does it handle on the grass?
  
• What are the differences with nkPro?
  
• What are the laptimes of the top drivers now? In hot lap, during a race and compared with real life times. Has the gap with slower drivers been reduced and how much.
  

Thank you for the DK post! I've read this comment on youtube:

Quote :

There was some talk a month or so back on inRacing News about the NTM and some of the other cars. One they talked about it being the most noticeable on is the SRF [Spec Racer Ford]. As far as a big change. The SRF has a pretty notorious reputation as a difficult car to drive. Apparently the NTM makes it a bit easier to get a grasp on once you get used to it.

I don't remember reading any such thing on inRacing News..