Quote from lizardfolk :

Are those tributes the only kind to be allowed to exist in the world? The filmmakers tribute at the Oscars paid tribute to all the filmmakers who died. Are you saying that is morbid and only people who are still alive needs to be remembered and memorialized?

The tributes at the Oscars to actors who have died do not contain video footage of their deaths. If they did, they would be considered morbid, offensive, distasteful etc.

If you want to truly honour and pay tribute to the life of someone who has died tragically, make a film about their life.
To show their deaths explicitly is completely unnecessary.

If you want to highlight the tragedy of death in sport, make a film about the families and friends and how their lives have been changed. Make a film with interviews and or footage about people who have changed their sports to make them safer. What about focusing on how public opinion of a sport can be changed by tragedy.
These would be valid subjects as they would educate and inform rather than titilate.
None of these things would need any explicit footage of fatal accidents. In fact there is no need whatsoever to show that stuff.
Just because a film has 'tasteful' music doesn't stop it being purely for entertainment.
Just because it makes someone cry doesn't justify it in any way.

To justify showing footage of death, you have to be saying something that can't be said without showing the footage.

To show someones death for entertainment is crass. So someone commissioned you to do it. You need the cash. Fine. It's still crass. So the music is 'tasteful' and it made someone cry. It's still crass.

Quote from lizardfolk :

But that's F1 incidents only. I have stock car (including NASCAR), Le Mans, touring car, Formula Nippon, Modified, etc.

Good for you - you got more fatalities than they did, you rule.
(btw, That big grin smiley is so damn respectful I almost cried.)

Quote from Mustafur :

Explain to me how wanting to park it is trying your hardest?

Limiting engine revs due to the rules doesn't mean hes not trying hes hardest. specificly asking to park it means he is.

nonsense!

Asking the team if they should park the car means he IS trying his hardest!
Deep down, Hamilton probably wants to turn everything up and floor it, but he is a professional and part of a team, so he is trying to control his instincts and 'look at the bigger picture'.
The team are just better at understanding the bigger picture than Hamilton is - which is why he asked them. He's just thinking about his next race, while they are thinking about both cars and future development.

With the testing restrictions, any time on track becomes more valuable to the team, even when the car is damaged. particularly as they were debuting a new 'package'.

The BBC teams coverage
"Fell off a cliff"
today !

Either Kimi and Button go off in first corner.
OR
Button lets Kimi through and jumps him at first pit stops, then "scampers off into the distance" (as Brundle-Fly would say).

Quote from zeugnimod :

No, he chose him wrongly pushing a button on his wheel as the action of Hamilton that was to him (and many others) worthy of ridicule.

It just happens that Hamilton is the only driver on the grid with a dark skin colour so he chose this thing which distinguishes Hamilton visually from the other drivers to let people know that he wants to portray Hamilton.

Again: It's stupid but not racist.

If pushing the wrong button on his wheel is something so unique that Hamilton can be singled out and ridiculed for it, then the guy wouldn't need to black up to use it as his target. He would just need the Maclaren t-shirt and the wheel.
He could have easily written 'Lewis' on his t-shirt to make it clear anyhow.
He could have worn a yellow helmet - he would then have looked a whole lot more like Hamilton than he did.

If he was really just a naive idiot who was trying to look like Hamilton, why was his skin so different in colour from hamiltons, and so close in colour to a minstrel show style 'blackface' characature ?

And why is he looking a lot more worried and uncomfortable than his mates after seeing the camera? maybe he knows full well how offensive and racist he is being and is worried about getting in trouble?
Seems to me that his mate is going 'wahay we're on telly', but the blacked up guy is going "oh shit............look it's the button on the wheel, honest...... I'm not really racist... f*$k I'm in deep shit now..."

Quote from BurnOut69 :

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

While we agree that guy's sense of humour is retarded, I still can't see any racism. He wasnt making fun because Hamilton is black, he was messing up with his inability to push the right button, no white power trash in that pic.

#The fan was intent on ridiculing Hamilton. (everyone seems to agree on this, apart from the few idiots who try to suggest he is a Hamilton fan?!)
#To ridicule a person you would normally try to select an attribute of that person that you perceive as worthy of ridicule.
#That fan chose skin colour as an attribute of Hamilton that was to him, worthy of ridicule.

That last part fits with your definition - normally something is chosen as a target for ridicule because it is percieved as inferior in some way.

What that says about that fan whether he realises it or not is that he believes that hamiltons skin colour is worthy of ridicule. It also suggests that the same belief is shared by a reasonalby large number of his peers, or he wouldn't be so public about his expression of this belief.

It doesn't matter what his personal reasons for targeting Hamilton were. What matters is that the feature of Hamilton he chose to target was race.

Its got nothing to do with Political Correctness either as many folk here seem to be suggesting.
PC is all about what should or shouldn't be acceptable. I'm not arguing about whether what this guy did is acceptable or not (I don't think it is BTW) I'm arguing that it can be correctly defined as racism.

Col

Quote from richo :

I think its an idiot with and bad teeth and the sense of humor of an 11yr old.

Big difference between bad taste and poor judgment and racism.

Yes, there is a big difference:
I could gate crash a funeral wearing a clown suit and sing the chicken song. Bad taste and poor judgement, but not racist.

BUT they are not mutually exclusive:
That guy at the grand prix was displaying very bad taste and poor judgement and at the same time he was being racist.

Col

Quote from zeugnimod :

Eh?

...

Just a question: What is the offensive word in that sentence?

Hmm, so what you are implying is that for a sentence to be offensive, it must contain offensive words?
(which if true would also suggest that to be racist would require the use of specifically racist words.)

lets see if we can provide an example to prove or disprove your reasoning:

"zeuginmod is an extremely narrow minded and shockingly stupid person. He must have been brought up by very stupid people who didn't have the brains to teach him either simple playground level ethics or basic language interpretation. Maybe they tried but he didn't have the brain power or inclination to learn?
In addition, like his biological father - who may have been the postman, the milkman, or that smelly old alchoholic on the street corner, nobody knows for sure - he has an extremely small penis and cannot satisfy a woman, a man or a sheep no matter how hard he tries."

OK zeuginmod, none of those words by themselves are in the least offensive.
Do you find any of the content offensive ?
Can you imagine someone else finding any of that offensive if it was directed at them ?

FWIW, I'm not going to get into the argument about the fan. I got into it one of the other times it was raised here, and it is hard to believe that it's been started again. If you are just being devils advocate, or trolling, then grow up. otherwise, you are either a racist or you really are very thick.

cheers

Col

There are wreckers, there are idiots and there are 'hot-lappers', BUT...

You have to remember that it's a race and not a Sunday drive in the park. When you are racing, folk cannot leave a 'safe distance' to the next car that would give them time to avoid them if that car does something unexpected. If you are so far off the pace that you are braking much earlier than the norm, or your apex speed is much lower, then you will cause accidents.

Folk have to be able to trust that other drivers are not going to do unexpected things. That's why IRL racers have to get licenses, and series have rules about qualifying that prevent very slow drivers from taking part.

If you are just starting out, or don't know the track, you should really practice off-line for a while. If not, then at least watch to see roughly what times the majority are doing for the track. If you can't get near to that time (within a couple of seconds for an average track length I'd say), then you shouldn't be racing - go find a server with slower folks, or where slow driving will be tolerated.

Another tip is to tell everyone when you arrive that you are a beginner and will be slow. Apologise in advance for any incidents you might cause.

If someone is behind you who is much faster, why not let them through? Otherwise, you both get slowed down until they get past you anyway Or there is an accident and both your races are ruined. Better to focus on the drivers that are at a similar level to yourself and let the others go!

cheers

Col

Quote from sinbad :

He doesn't know the circuit even. My guess is he's been asked to try LFS because he has that rig.
I don't know who makes that but it doesn't look very good does it, a bit slow and soft in its movement. Things like that definitely need to be enclosed for maximum effect too, or else your mind keeps reminding you that you're tilting because you have all these external reference points, and the "g-effect" of being pitched and rolled is even less effective.

You want it to feel/look like this (most impressive force dynamics video), especially if you're spending big money, and unless you have acute tunnel vision it just won't.

yes, force dynamics is awesome as far as state of the art goes, but it's something like $30,000... not an option for most folks.
I, like you thought it looked a bit cheapo, so I had a good surf on this link, and discovered that the rig "doesn't look very good" because he made it himself all from easily available parts (even PVC plumbing tube) that bolt together - no welding !
It uses two car wiper motors. the software is open source.
He reckons it would cost about 800 euros in total if you have to buy everything, also mentions that the lag is partly fixed and was due to a software problem.
Supposedly there is also a revised circuit with better motor controllers in the pipeline to improve the movement further.

So it IS awesome in that it is REALLY cheap and you can make it without fancy equipment (just a soldering iron for the electronics I think).
I wish I had more free time - I would be half way though making one already

Last edited by col, Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:41.

spend it on karting

Quote from DeMS :

I mean, do you think Coulthard loves it to hear people calling his chin enormous? In the same fashion, it's nothing he had picked to have or to be, just like Hamilton didn't choose to be of his skin color (not like there's anything bad about being yellow, blue, white or black), so where is the difference?

The difference is clear.
There is a long history throughout most of the world of people being subjugated, abused, discriminated against and generally disadvantaged due to the colour of their skin. This continues to the present day.
There is no similar history of people being disadvantaged due to their chin size.

Hehe, I think it looks pretty damn good, particularly the new rear wing !

Nice to have a change, and I bet many who hate it now will look back in a few years and think the 2008 cars just look daft by comparison!

Quote from Gunn :

Do you think Eccelstone is trying to be racist? You imply it. I think he is not.

I don't think he is 'trying' to be racist, I do believe that he is trying to make light of something extremely serious and that in doing so he seems to be defending the actions of racists hence my suggestion of complicity.
It's possible that he's just being 'clever' - courting controversy in order to generate more column inches for F1, after all, he doesn't care what people think of him as long as the money keeps rolling in.

Quote from TagForce :

Let me run this by you once more...

They do not, I repeat NOT, hate him because he's black... They hate him because he beat their beloved Alonso. They just use his skin color to single him out, because that's the easiest thing to recognise him by.

Let me run this by you once more...

It doesn't matter what they hate him for! The fact that they choose his race as the focus of their attack shows that they feel there is something inherently wrong with his race - to them it is worthy of ridicule - this makes them and their actions racist. It doesn't even matter if they realise this or intend it.

Its funny that in your defense of these people, you giving in part of your description of their actions a very concise definition of racism: "They just use his skin color to single him out".

Quote from TagForce :

If Lewis had ears the size of his hands, those people would've worn fake ears and done the exact same thing. It has nothing at all to do with racism. They don't hate him because he's black, they hate him because he's the one that beat Alonso, their fav. Anything that makes him stand out from the other drivers will be used to make fun of him. Lewis is dark-skinned, and no other drivers are... So what's the easiest part about Lewis to target for your hatred?

The fact that they see his race as something about him that should be used as an object of ridicule is what makes them and their actions racist... the fact that you seem to be suggesting that his skin colour is "the easiest part about Lewis to target for your hatred" makes you seem like a racist as well - I hope this is just an unfortunate communication breakdown ?

Racism isn't just about hating someone for their race.
If you hate someone for a different reason and use their race as a focus for your hatred, that is also racist.

Quote from DeMS :

If, if, if. Conditions don't make situations, facts do. Two guys amongst over one hundred thousand do make spaniards racist. You're welcome to put some logic into that, since skinhead movement was born in England a couple of decades ago, they were far more in number, did bigger trouble than those poor couple of idiots (who said they were spaniards, actually?) and England was not excluded of any sport. There is no actual evidence that they were not Hamilton supporters, there is no actual recording as far as I know that they were shouting abusive words, but there is evidence that by february, every year, there's Carnival party in Spain, which means people dresses up as someone or something else and has fun.

Then again, plenty of people seems to be over-affected and prefers to believe the 'ifs'. Their choice. But don't mask the 'if' to make it the truth.

Wow, you seem to be attributing things to me that I have never said or even implied.
I've never mentioned 'Spaniards' or the Spanish people, I've only spoken of the guys who were blacked up and of discussion relating to them here and from Eccleston I certainly didn't mention their nationality as that was not relevant to the discussion I was taking part in.
Get your damn facts right before you start accusing people of being xenophobic - a good place to start would be to actually read what folks actually say rather than just invent whatever suits your point best!

As far as picking on the 'if conditions' in my post, maybe you didn't notice that there were exactly two - one for each possible answer of a true/false question, it certainly wasn't an argument based on multiple compound uncertanties as you seem to be implying.. its as though you didn't actually read anything I said... hmmm...

Quote from gezmoor :

Obviously.
There is a gulf of difference between expressing offensive views and actually causing harm to someone because of belief in those views. Don't be naieve enough to believe that just because a couple of idiots paint their faces black that we're in danger of regressing back to the dark days of slavery, because it's just not going to happen.

straw man

Quote :

We should be shaking our heads with pity for those people over the whole situation and moving on, not expressing indignant outrage over it.

Pity and sadness for the fools in the crowd, indignant outrage for the people who you though you knew and who's reaction you are shocked by.

Quote :

I fear the term racist has grown to become all encompasing and hence the true horror of its meaning has been diminished. Hitler was a racist, members of the KKK are racists, people that are willing to oppress, beat, maim and kill others just because of a difference in skin colour are racists. There is a chasm of difference between true racism and bigoted prejudice as expressed by some idiotic sports supporters.

They are one and the same! both are 'true' the only 'difference' is in levels of severity.

Oppression isn't just physical and violent, it can be and usually is much more subtle: a school teacher having lower expectations of a child due to their race; a worker being passed over for promotion; a fan base being hyper critical of a sports star. It's these types of oppression that are often committed without conscious intent that are the most pervasive and the most difficult to prevent.

Quote from Gunn :

No it wouldn't, not ever. But in any case, what is racist about a bunch of Lewis fans making themselves up to look like Lewis? No racism there.

Do you truly and honestly believe that those guys in the crowd were "Lewis fans making themselves up to look like Lewis"?

If you don't, then why did you make this comment? just trolling?
If you do then... there are no words that really do justice to your naivety.

Either way, it makes me sad to hear comments like this from an LFS forum moderator.

Quote from Gunn :

Certainly Eccelstone's comments were not racist in any way.

That very much depends:

If the incidents amongst fans were racist then that's serious and he chose to make light of it rather than to tackle the issue head on, that would make him and his comments complicit with racism.

If on the other hand the crowd really were just having some innocent fun and there was no racist intent, then Bernie is in the clear.

The people criticising Bernie believe the the former is true.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

You can get a criminal record for being racist towards an ethnic minority in the United Kingdom, and by ethnic minority I mean any race but English.

This just displays more ignorance and highlights why there are so many problems around race.
You seem to imply by your 'tone' that the English are being unfairly treated. This is a common tactic used by race hate propagandists. I'm not suggesting you are one of them, but please think harder!
'English' is a nationality, not a race - there English people of many races, and to try and exactly define an English race is guaranteed to fail - just look at the history of the country.
As far as racism laws only applying to victims of minorities, they don't, however it's possible that they are sometimes applied unfairly. If you are in the white majority and have been the victim of race hate, but have not been taken seriously by the police, I'm sure your local MP will be glad to take up your case.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

It's not only laughable, it shows a complete lack of understanding, because the reason people don't like Hamilton is because of statements like that. If you complain and talk about quitting when you earn millions, in a time when people are losing their homes and struggling to earn enough to feed their families, you are never going to be popular. Hamilton and his father just need to shutup and do their job next season, if Hamilton stops making stupid comments in the media then people will like him again.

That's crap and you know it!

The problem isn't the foreign fans, its the UK 'fans'.
The guy has made big sacrifices to get his kid the best chance and, by a combination of hard work, dedication, immense skill and some luck, they have come through, they have delivered amazing results, and half of the country seems to hate them for it.
So why shouldn't they consider quitting? Why is it laughable? Is it suddenly a law of the natural universe that earning millions means you MUST enjoy your job and that you MUST NOT consider quitting?
The problem is that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't...
If they refuse to be open with the press, they get criticised by folks like you for toeing the line with the Maclaren PR machine, if on the other hand, they are open and honest, you slam them as well - seems like no surprise at all to me that they have considered quitting. I really hope they don't though even if its just to prove a point to all the haters.

Quote from Alistair :

Giving up playing with big boys toys and deciding to do one of the most important jobs on the planet would be a very good choice, not sure what that has to do with 'life' though

Quote from JCTK :

when they were using LAST year's car....
how amazing could that be that they improved significantly when they finally got their hands on THIS year's car~?

Yep, here are a couple of interesting questions:

How much more of an influence did F1 design ace Adrian Newey have on THIS years Torro Rosso compared to its predecessor?

Which engine would Ferrari have given Vettel for the final race - a standard 'customer' engine, or a full on bang up to date tweaked to perfection works Ferrari engine ?

It wouldn't surprise me if Torro Rossos 'package' for Brasil was at least as competitive as Maclarens.

Last edited by col, Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:04.

Hamilton gets a good start, enough to get level with Raikkonen preventing him from getting past Trulli, Massa goes too deep in T1 leaving Hamilton to disappear off into the distance courtesy of his superior wet weather skills...

After multiple spins in the wet, Ferrari pit Raikkonen to coencide with Hamiltons first pitstop, Kimi blatantly takes out Lewis on the pit exit, but the stewards decide to doc Lewis 10 points handing the WDC to Massa...

After the race, Massa refuses to accept the title because he is such a good sportsman. After this, the Brazilian crowd warm to Hamilton and start singing along to god save the queen... a huge chear goes up when Ron Denis appears on the podium to congratulate Hamilton... all the rest of the drivers gather around with Alonso leading a chorus of 'for he's a jolly good fellow'...

You know its no less likely than many of the things that have already happened this year

Go Hamilton