Well that's the idea...And you don't have to spend a whole fortune to enjoy that kind of realism.There is a company that sells all the necessary electronics,actuators and software needed for making a 2 actuator or 3 Tri-actuator motion sim for under $1500.Its not that hard actually.

Check this page : http://www.x-simulator.de/wiki/Community_Projects

You can built the frame by yourself or ask from a welder to make you one.The only trick is to have him weld you the hub in the center of gravity were you are going to place your seat frame and have the seat back a strong metal frame attached.The actuators are the only expensive thing as they cost $340 each.Also remember if you are heavy preferable to use the slower but stronger actuators.And the rest are cheap stuff...

My cars are a 97 nissan silvia aero na (the one with the vvt engine...)

I use it for track days but i still have not swapped the engine for a turbo one

My other is a 99 xjl sovereign 4.0

For me the BEST ferrari ever is the testarossa and to be more specific the
512 tr !!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi ... 2_TR_front_-_20080419.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi ... /Ferrari_512_TR_-_001.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi ... s/1/10/Ferrari_512_TR.jpg


Really this was one in a lifetime car.A true work of art,true beauty from every angle viewed upon,sharp and extreme lines screaming this is a supercar and because it was made with the american market in mind it is probably among the most roomy and comfortable inside.And with its v12 5.0 engine one of the best sounding too.The european market had other beautifull cars like the 288 gto,308qv,328,348 tr,355 but they all had smaller proportions and were very very crumpled inside.And everything after the 355 looks hideous with the exception of 458 italia that has the nasty habit of self destruction....

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Shift 1 AND 2 use a Gmotor engine?

EDIT: The 505,000 I mentioned? From your link a page back.

I can't see any big software company allowing their engine (ISI excepted) to be used in an upstart dev team

No shift 1 and 2 use a physics toned down version of their ferrari project engine....A engine they were working on since the gtr 2 days back in 2006.

And about iracing somebody mentioned it does not use gmotor 2....Actually it does but it is very much modified.

Still there is hope in the name of rfactor 2.Isi works non stop to improve every single aspect and maybe...just maybe in the end it looks good too.

Well you are right and that makes me wonder why nobody tries to license a high level 3d engine for their sim ? I mean both rfactor,gtr evo/race on and iracing use gmotor 2.Only netkar and lfs have their own proprietary engines.Why not license for example the shift 2 engine and improve its physics ? Or the dirt engine ? ( I mean the dirt engine was used in dirt 1/2/3 on grid and on formula 2010,it's extremely flexible and advance with dx11 now been fully supported...why not work from that point and improve the physics ? )

Quote from MadCatX :

It's pretty obvious to me. Justasimfan has been repeatedly expressing that he cares more about the looks than physics. Since XMR has "advanced graphics engine" (read engine using now 4 years old DX9c with a bunch of stupid HDR effects), he "sees a potential" in that game. The complete lack of tire model doesn't seem to bother him and that's why most of us will never get to an agreement with him.

I admit i do care a lot about the looks of games.But i also care about physics don't get me completely the wrong way.It is just that the very few simulators that can be called simulators are very lackluster graphically.I mean some of the best cars and tracks in rfactor do look quite good to be honest and the little content that exists for netkar is quite polished.And even the gtr evo and race on games are not that bad either.Even lfs with all the textures updated by lynce,electric kar etc.. can look almost decent.
But when i play shift 2 or grand turismo 5 as arcade as they are they often look bloody incredible.From the way light reflects on the pavement or the amazing weather effects,or the way light engulfes everything or the stitches on the car dashes ,to the audio nirvana those games archive...it makes you scream why the above sims cannot have the same graphical treatment...Don't forget that shift 1/2 developers are the same people behind the gtr games-the thing is that gtr 1 was made in 2005,gtr 2 in 2006 as the first race version and since then there were almost zero graphical improvements for the last 5 years....

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that. Would Scavier change LFS's price based on forum posts? Likely, no

Also did some research into your X-Plane BS, you have to buy specialized equipment at up to $500,000, plus X-Plane Pro at up to $5000 then talk to the FAA, adding in more cash. At that rate real lessons are cheaper

Critique's been made here, but the way I see it you're not happy with the feedback. I checked your LFSW times last night and you're about as slow as I am. Which is very.

The prices you are mentioning are for a high level 5 certified pro motion simulator that can lift an entire cockpit for 2 people and is based on at least 6 actuators...If you check ebay for flight simulator equipment you can have everything you need for under $10.000.A used Pro yoke costs around $2500-3000,rudders around $1000 more and throttle controls around $500-1000 more.Instrument panels cost around $500-$1000 each.For a level 3 certified sim you need the radio panel and the basic panels that small planes have.You can find all you need for around $7000-8000 dollars and you can buy the special x-plane version that has the usb for level 2 certification for $500 -plus the $30 that the basic version of xplane costs.
If you want to have a level 3 certification the special usb and software costs around $1000 plus the $30 dollars of the basic version.

And ofcourse there are the ultimate level 4-5 software and hardware that cost a little more but even those can be used with a much much cheaper motion simulation than what you talk about.Motion dynamics has some incredible flight/racing simulators that cost around $10.000-20.000 for the simple models and if you want the stronger models for use as an attraction or a flight school(or you are simply too heavy) they cost around $40.000 dollars.


And just to prove you just talk without making any research check here :
http://digitaledgepc.com/
Personally i prefer to built myself my computers and love the hotas but you can have a tri-monitor system complete with a semi pro yoke/rudders/throttle,the game and a level 2 cerification usb all for around $2500 dollars...From the 505.000 you mention to 2500 i think reality from what you say is different.

About the price you are right there.No matter how much content the full game has it does not excuse the hefty 50 dollar price at its current state.On my behalf what i see in this game is an advance render engine with many advance features we ask for many years in no responce.That's why i believe the more people make suggestions/help/critique of the game to its devs it would only mean improvements for that game.Even the price tag if enough people talked about it to them instead of only here they definitely would reconsider changing it to something more appropriate.

Quote from MadCatX :

As far as I know you can practice only certain things like IFR navigation or approach on a certified sim and have it logged. It's definitely not like you can do the entire PPL on X-Plane.

@justasimfan
I think you quite exaggerated Plato's excitement with the RB simulator. He just found the force feedback and motion platforms movement "quite real", but at least the motion platform movement requires pretty basic physics and even DiRT or NFS:S get that right. As long as you don't have a real car to compare it to, it will always feel real as long as the acceleration calculations aren't completely off. RB simulator also has a big advantage over commercial sims because if focuses solely on one car the developers know to the last bit. It's not that hard to recreate it's behavior when you have access to gigabytes of telemetry data recored in hours of testing and races...

Of course you cannot have a full license straight through a sim!!! No matter how realistic a sim can be and trust me buy or built a motion platfrom(you can built one for around $2000-there is one company that sells or the needed electronics and the software to use them in the major simulation) and you can have something akin to reality its still not the same because the element of fear is missing.But as i said you can have up to 1/5 of your actual needed flight hours logged in simulators.Also i don't know if that applies on all countries yet as there are different levels of simulation approval.For example a tri-monitor system with pro controls but without instrument panels(radio etc..) will be considered only as a level 2 system that gives you fewer hours .A system with full instrument panels and pro controls would be considered a level 3 system that gives you more hours as they advertise.There are even level 4 certified systems that may give you even more hours for all certified motion platforms....But the cost keeps raising up with each higher level....

Quote from Bose321 :

Just tried the newest version of this game btw. Didn't change a bit. It was gone from my PC after 2 minutes (that includes downloading and installing it).

2 Minutes!!! Ok it's not perfect but in 2 Minutes you cannot even make one lap!! And as i said it's not epiphany compared to old versions but the physics slowly do get better(In this version you have to press x or whatever you specify in the controls to enable a block diff(lsd) that makes it possible to control the car while sliding.Also the problem with the power curve sort of improves if you select in the garage options a semiauto or a manual clutch(provided you have one).In any case it would help providing your thoughts to the devs to improve the game.We don't have that many sims out there so every new one is welcomed in my book and should be helped out.

About airline simulator....They state it as realistic but..by 1999 standards...And even by those standards i do remember during that year there was one other underestimated gem of a game called flight unlimited 3 by looking glass...That was way more advance even by 1999 standards...And one other game was released through it took 1-2 years to fix called falcon 4...

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

That's US centric however. Youi're in the UK

Okay so if I use a keyboard with FSX, it's not a sim? Nor is LFS? Again. Flawed argument. What about XMR? That's not a sim if I use keyboard?

I travel a lot, so I use a laptop, not able to take any specialized equipment with me

Would any real life racers please like to elaborate on how realistic a racing sim is, compared to a real car?

EDIT: Something I thought of. Airline Simulator 2 is designed around keyboard/mouse.

Why? It has a fully modeled FMC, now tell me a joystick or pedals that can program a flight management compter?

Also, the physics don't change, regardless of input device

EDIT 2: Would you tell Alex Zanardi or Nic Hamilton to race with a wheel and pedals only instead of their cars? As said above, not everyone has the time, space, or ability to use a G25/G27

I am sorry but somewhere over there i lost you....How old are you from curiosity ? In my book playing with a keyboard or mouse stops a sim from actually being a sim.It is just a game like the dreaded need for speed series or test drive or burnout series etc...When the act of driving that involves turning/feeling/fighting with a wheel,balancing the throttle/brake/clutch pedals and shifting is removed than it starts becoming a game not a sim...

-And for your information real life racers USE simulators for actual training in between races.American nascar and indycar teams use iracing a lot and in europe f1 teams use either rfactor or like ferrari a variant of netkar pro.Actually in the latest Fith Gear episode Plato(A touring car driver himself-and a good one that lost the title because a prototype he was driving for the tv series caught fire) was driving head to head with David Coulthard in a rfactor simulator and by also using a motion platform they both talked of how close to real life was.Actually Plato was soaked wet after he finished racing -IT is THAT close to reality.

Also airline simulator IS NOT A FLIGHT SIMULATOR!!!!!!!!!!! iT SIMULATES A AIRPLANE COMPANY -AS CHAMPIONSHIP MANAGER SIMULATES A FOOTBALL TEAM -it doesn't really simulates all the physics behind it....

Nic Hamilton ? You mean Louis Hamilton ain't you ? Two thumps up through for remembering Alex Zanardi-He was he after all that with Senna developed the honda nsx and the vtek technology nowdays used through variads in almost every new engine(vvti,fsi,vanos etc...).

And yes simulator developers ask from race drivers ALL the time to test their games/simulators -That was the reason why some games ended up so good -like the papyrous nascar series and grand prix legends,richard burns rally,netkar(as kunos helps ferrari.....) and so on...

Last edited by justasimfan, Tue, 3 May 2011 18:24.

No my friend you Don't need either of those BUT you are going to loose the point aren't you ? With the above equipment you can have an exprerience that is very close to real life and you can even gain experience by playing.Or the opposite you can apply real life experience on the game.

Sure you can play with a keyboard (stabilized too...) but then you are just playing a game NOT a simulator.Is there anything,anything doing when playing with a keyboard that is similar to real life driving and racing ? Even turning is not a press a button thingy multiple times but turning in a axis.

And flying simulators like x-plane and flying simulator x can provide you with a good number of your needed flying hours to get a license.

http://www.x-plane.com/pg_certified.html

Provided of course you have the right equipment and you buy the pro version of the software that supports that equipment and uses a special usb key to check your equipment/your frame rates and your settings(tri-monitors etc...).And yes the equipment(Professional joysticks/rudder pedals and throttle controls along with instrument panels is very expensive
http://www.flypfc.com/
But have in mind that having actual airplane lessons as amazing as they are can cost you up to $500 per lesson....So even $10.000 for having a simulator that could give you 1/5 of you needed hours to get a license is a bargain....(You can actually built yourself one for even less as you can find some used parts on ebay )

Last edited by justasimfan, Tue, 3 May 2011 17:24.

Quote from Inouva :

So, for not having a G25/27 i can't enjoy the physics?, ok....

So, you realy enjoyed Crysis or HL2 playing with a wheel right?

Crysis and hl2 are first person shooters NOT DRIVING SIMULATORS my friend.They are two completely different things....i cannot understand your reasoning.Have you ever driven a car or raced one in real life ? A good force feedback wheel can give you the same feel of the road and the same fight with the steering wheel as in real life.Add a nice setup with a clutch and a shifter and real life experience can be applied while playing and the opposite experience gained from the simulator can actually be applied to real life.The same happens with flight simulators provided you have the nesessary equipment as you get flying hours spend in the game counted as real flying hours.And to enjoy first person shooters while we are on the matter as with driving games you need the right equipment (g25/25 -fanatec 911) the same applies with first person shooters as a good gaming mouse helps a lot( i have a logitech mouse revolution-the one with two scrolls! ),and a nice gaming monitor and a good system to play smoothly.
-And last if you play fist person shooters give a try to Bioshock,Far Cry 2,Stalker Clear Sky and Stalker the call of Prypiat,Fear 1/2,Fallout 3/new vegas,Tribes Vengeance,Singularity,call of duty -modern warfare 2,Rainbow six Vegas and replay Hl2 with the 20gb fan made cinematic mod.

Last edited by justasimfan, Tue, 3 May 2011 09:37.

It would be great having all the above roads drivable!!

I guess so but......what's the point of even discussing about good physics if you cannot really experience them ? I mean if you play lfs with a mouse all these years.....then i cannot even begin to explain what you are missing....

Really go and buy a decent g25/27 wheel you are not going to regret it.

I dare you count the parts!!! Hehehhe

What was the last version you tested the game ? Now its v1.29 and has started to improve a lot physics wise.
(-You have to assign a button-i think the default is x to change the differential model and set it to lsd(blocked.Also you have to set the clutch to semiauto in the garage submenu or manual if you have a g25/27 or fanatek wheel with a clutch).A bit messy for the moment....still a long way from lfs tire physics but lfs was not perfected in one day you know...

To improve frame rates disable antialising and play in a lower resolution.This game is much much more detailed than lfs so this is expected.

And about sounds...yes they are horrible....i hope somebody helps/join the devs on that aspect for some proper sounds!

And about the account i prefer for forum bubling using a demo account...For god's shake i don't want to troll or anything but often speaking about another sim or mentioning lfs problems gets viewed that way...

That's what i am talking about !! It needs a LOT of work to come close to the amazing physics lfs has or it's super smooth online gameplay.Yet at the same time lfs engine is really old and even the new tire patch alongside the more open tracks can do so much to extend the life of the game.The lfs engine uses a dx8 render where xmotoracing uses a dx9c that makes possible the use of hdr and bloom lighting.That alongside a solid damage code that along vertex deformation adds the ability of detachable parts that affect aerodynamics and a nice real time lighting and some great looking cockpits makes it really sweet looking.This one is one to watch for and everybody's suggestions in the game's forum is welcomed by the devs and may help improving the game.
http://www.xmotorracing.com/forum.html

It's far from perfect but it really shows a lot of promise as the engine is far more advance then lfs engine.It supports real time lighting,hdr,full vertex deformation and parts detachment,aerodynamics,some really good cockpits and is continuasly developed.It's one to look for and if you have the time download the test version and you will be surprised by some of the features the game has.

The force feedback was fixed with the Real Feel pluggin which in rfactor 2 is improved...

Really Isi is trying to make a rock solid engine where amazing mods will be really easy to make as they have thought about everything.

From sweet real time lighting with hdr and bloom ,to improved ai,great changeable weather effects,rock solid netcode ,great mechanical damage added to the visual damage,great driver/pitcrew/spectators animations...etc.. this is the most complete sim there will ever be....if they do it right.

I really believe that if anyone can somehow make it happen it's ISI.I mean the engine used in almost every sim out there was made by ISI (gmotor).If it was not for Isi we would never have gtr1/2/evo race on,iracing,etc...

A new version of the sim in development xmotoracing has been released 1.29

Still it needs a lot of work but the simulation is being continuasly developed and improved and the devs do hear people suggestions.Check it here :
http://www.xmotorracing.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p;feature=player_embedded

And if you have the time post your thoughts about it.

To be honest i rarely actually play lfs lately but i do check almost daily and the news from Scawen really made my day.I almost had given up on lfs and the feedback from Scawen shows lfs is not dead and still it can improve.

On the matter of open configs i believe it can improve on immersion if when using existing grids instead of solid barriers have cones/signs/movable barriers on their place as the track could be completely open and a mistake would cost you a lot more than it does now making racing more immersive and exciting.I guess this would need a little bit of programming but it does not sound very hard.

On another note through if Scawen read this i must stress that lfs needs a lot of improvements on many fronts as it has gotten really behind on many aspects compared to other simulator games.Scawen i still believe the actuall feeling in lfs is better than any other simulator i play but please try to improve on other things and do not concentrate only on the tire physics improvements as important as the may seem.

I mean the game needs a better dx render -like a dx9c and work on a real time lighting system with support of effects like bloom and the god-mighty hdr.Really good lighting can lift graphics by a huge margin.

On the matter of graphics a weather system is also a must -provided weather is affected by overal temperature /wind and time of day.If pools of water can be formed to than it could be even better.

Also an animation system and 3d objects for possible 3d pit crews/spectators and 3d trees could bring a lot of life in the tracks-again provided these are toggable features.

Aside graphics the possibility of point to point racing could be amazing -provided some point to point content is provided like a hillclimb or lets say a open road coastal route.During the last few years this kind of racing is only found in arcade games and it could be amazing having this kind of racing found in a true simulation.

-and finally some work on car damage would be nice as there are no detachable parts that could affect aerodynamics (are there aerodynamics even calculated ? )

And finally its good to know that s3 content is been worked on but i do hope you realize that 2-3 new tracks and a couple of cars simply won't do to revive the game.Yes for a few weeks or a couple of months people will get back playing lfs but after the initial reaction had cooled down people will go back at rfactor/gtr games were even through inferior on actual " feeling" they have massive amounts of high quality content like tracks and real life cars.

For god's shake ..you still play the game with a mouse...!
Really the only thing special about lfs nowdays compared to other games are its very good physics BUT you need a g25/27 or a fanatek wheel to appreciate how good lfs is.
They may be not cheap but that's the way it is if you really love racing games buy one as you can use it on some other amazing games like rfactor and the gtr games too.

Quote from vistaman :

Lol... EA needs 1 year to create a whole game with 100+ cars and 70tracks (Shift2) and LFS Dev's need 3 Years for 1 Car, 1 Track and New Tire Physics.

Win.

Well ....Here is the thing Ea's games suck hard...I mean look at shift its been made by the team that helped made gtr /gtr 2 and race and...i cannot believe how crappy the physics are.IF at least they used the same physics code as gtr 2/race but with the graphics they did shift would be the best game ever...but alas....

But never the less a team that has around 10-15 core stuff developers has archieved somehow to make in one year 100 +(on a recent update list they mention 145+special versions) incredibly looking cars and 70 tracks we 3 developers still work on a handfull of cars and probably 2-3 tracks more for the last 6 years...