What's the point in just reducing the cylinders? If you want to be economic use electric engines. We have the technology to produce a powerful electric engine that will last long enough for us to race with it.

Just discard the ''no refueling'' rule and allow teams to change the ''batteries'' of their cars. We'll have more interesting pit stops, more advanced technology and the technology developed in F1 will be useful in building road cars. With electric engines F1 will be the pinnacle of technology and economic racing it is supposed to be.

Or we can just use smaller engines and ban every clever thing Red Bull comes up with to improve aerodynamics and let F1 slowly die.

Quote from Mustafur :

He was sent out too late, he wasn't able to warm hes tryes quick enough and pretty much everyone that set a time after Perez's crash had the same problem(Webber, Rosberg, Hamilton and Massa) there was only enough time for one out lap and a time which isn't enough to get the tyres up to temperature, to make it worse most of those people where waiting at the end of the pit lane for a couple of minutes waiting for the green light.

The fact he cut the chicane wouldn't of mattered as as he still would of been around 1 second slower with cold tyres(which he also used softs).

1 second slower would've meant that he was fifth which is quite a bit more in front than 9th. The way I see it is that the team lost only 2 or 3 places and Hamilton lost the rest.

He was sent late because they wanted to use only one set of tires to give him better tires in race. There's also the most traction in the end of the qualifying so without the red flag his strategy would've been perfect. With them it wasn't. Nobody anticipated the red flag. With 10 cars driving max 4 laps pushing it's extremely rare there's a red flag and the odds that the red flag came just as Hamilton had started his hotlap is even more slim. It's quite easy to say afterwards what would've been the best strategy but try to think the odds of something happening instead of looking what happened.

Quote from JCTK :

"I don't agree that it was more Hamilton's fault than Button's. Jenson clearly knew Lewis was there after he was slow exiting the final chicane - his head tilts twice as he is watching Lewis hard in his mirrors. The incident is 50-50 blame in my view at best." quoted from Martin Brundle.

It seems that we'll never completely agree on the situation but I see your point. I see the situation more as Hamilton pushing in somewhere Button was already going because of bad judgement of the situation.

Quote from JCTK :

In Monaco Lewis was on the backfoot because the team made a strategic error. But in Canada he'd got only himself to blame (rather than trying to blame the car for not being fast enough) for the position he had put himself in.

It was not necessarily "mistakes", but rather perhaps a wrong approach to how he races.

That is a good point, especially about his approach to the race. I'll keep that in mind.
I'd like to remind you though that in Monaco it wasn't really the team's fault Hamilton failed in the qualifying. He made a mistake and had to cut a corner. That's not Mclaren's fault right? It was also just pure bad luck that the red flags came just as Hamilton had begun his first hotlap. Without red flags Hamilton could've driven few laps and would've gotten a good time. It wasn't something the team should have anticipated. Saving tires was very important as we saw in the race so I just don't feel it was in any way Mclaren's fault.

Quote from JPeace :

Please stop thinking so literally! A mix up of communication does not mean technologically the two have failed. You have no idea how hard it is to see a car in those mirrors, let alone in the rain and even worse off a silver car in the rain! The reason Button initially went to the center was indeed to defend his position but he then moved to the outside when approaching the corner in order to load the suspension to the left for the first right hander, in order to bear the most traction possible from his McLaren. Hamilton failed to realise this was Buttons' intention after he took the middle line initially. Also, the momentum was with Hamilton at the time and so he had the upper hand in terms of speed, Hamilton was previously quicker on previous laps over Button. For your information, I believe that nobody was at fault and that it was just unfortunate. However, for people who dislike Hamilton it is a clear oppourtunity to jump on that bandwagon.

I am not a native speaker so I cannot but think literally unless I sense sarcasm. I know that Button couldn't have seen Hamilton. So what? We were talking about someone being more guilty than the other right?
Button moved straight to the outside he didn't stay in the middle. Hamilton didn't see that Button was going to drive like everyone does? Hamilton being faster than Button doesn't mean anything unless he got frustrated and that caused the collision which I don't think happened.

Nobody's fault is quite unbelievable since if they both drove perfectly why did they crash then? For the record I don't believe any one should be punished, I believe it was a racing accident but still, there was someone who caused the collision, who was more to blame if you look hard enough. Is every mistake worth a penalty - no and in fact had this happened to someone else no one would be interested. Hamilton having now a total of 4 collisions in 2 races. Can't be just because of other's right? He needs to take his time with overtaking and not push in every time there's a slim chance of succeeding and a great one to crash. This was just an unfortunate accident with Button but you can't deny Hamilton has problems right now and that he needs to rethink his driving. He makes too many mistakes and with driving like what we've seen in last 2 races he'll never win the championship again.

Quote from JPeace :

Stop being so subjective. A Mix up would be that Hamilton did not realise that Button was to take such a wide line and started to use the space available to give him the slingshot into the first corner.

How's that a mix up of communication? It's just judging the situation incorrectly which is the one's fault who judged the situation wrong. Believe me, there's always someone who's fault it is the most. This time I believe it was more Hamilton's fault than Button's but not enough to give any penalties since it was an accident and he did let go of the throttle before the collision trying to avoid it.

And Mustafur I haven't yet seen anyone turn their views because of Hamilton. Can you give an example to back you up or are you just trolling again?

Also I find it strange that everyone says Vettel did the mistake of pressure. It wasn't his only mistake in the track but the only one that you noticed. After driving 2 hours every driver is tired and when you try to push as hard as you can it's obvious that once in a while you make mistakes. If he starts to make mistakes more you might suggest that he can't handle the pressure but so far I don't see any proof of him making mistakes under pressure.

Last edited by Juzaa, Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:05.

Quote from JPeace :

A mixture of the two? You know, sometimes its not always one persons' fault, there is such thing as a racing incident or a mixup of communication.

So why didn't they say it was both driver's fault? Why did both say it was their fault? Also it's quite hard for both to make exactly as ''big'' mistake. It's always more someone's fault than the other's. Even if it's judged as a racing incident.

Racing incident's can happen with only one driver making an error so what's your point with that? Mixup of communication is also quite hard at this case since I'm pretty sure they didn't talk to eachother' in the radio when they crashed.

The only way for a mixup to happen is if Mclaren ordered button to let Hamilton go in the main straight and told Hamilton about it but Button didn't catch it because of a radio malfunction. Is that what you were trying to suggest? Didn't think so.

Quote from DevilDare :

You wouldnt see it even if he apologised a million times.

And if you read it, he apologised and admitted it was his own mistake to Button himself, behind closed doors. When he was speaking directly to the media as soon as he got out of the car, he said he was not sure about it. He even thought he was half way alongside Button... Obviously after seeing the replays he probably realised it wasnt the smartest of moves.

And saying Ron Dennis wouldnt have liked it is quite honestly bullshit, because we all know Lewis is like a son to Ron... He will stand on Lewis side more times than not..

Dont even know why I'm replying to you... 90% of your posts in this section are about Hamilton and how bad he is. We get it...

You seem to forget that Button said it was his mistake a while earlier. If both say that it's their mistake then who's mistake is it? I'm just wondering that why did he apologize now? He's done things that should be apologized and he hasn't until much later. Now that he didn't even need to apologize, did so and told the press immediately how he'd apologized. That just seems odd to me. Maybe he's starting to take responsibility, maybe it's a press trick or maybe he's getting pressure from team or sponsors. We can't know for certain. One confession for a minor mistake doesn't clean his record so I'm astonished you are suddenly implying he is some kind of perfect gentleman and most of the time apologizes if he's done wrong.

Also note that if you drive perfectly you don't need to apologize which Hamilton has had to do too many times this season.

You obviously haven't even bothered to read my posts since I don't remember any post in this particular thread where I'd bash Hamilton's skills. Please, any proof to support your statement? I just said that he should've let go of the situation earlier and he even said the same thing so what are you moaning about?
All ''bad'' I've said about him in Monaco thread is that he doesn't handle failures well and is overly agressive. I've said positive things about him and his talent but since you haven't read my comments you didn't see them.

Quote from DevilDare :

There you go.

Yet people still call him "arrogant" and say he, "never claims his own mistakes" - Just choosing to ignore articles like these.

Bah, anyway, not the first time he had a crap couple of races... Hopefully with Button winning he will pick himself up.

Vettel is off in the distance already though so... Button already needs 3 wins and for Vettel to not DNF / finish in points, which is highly unlikely.

An exception that makes the rule. He had to apologize since Button is in the same team and Ron Dennis would not have liked it if Hamilton had said that it was Button's fault entirely. Now both said to the press it was their fault and everyone in Mclaren is happy. This is media game just like Hamilton's apologizes for Monaco several days late.

This is the first time I've seen him apologize so soon and for a situation that didn't even cause him a penalty. (meaning he didn't do anything severely wrong) I'm quite certain that this article was sponsored and written by Mclaren.

Quote from JCTK :

Why do I know better than former F1 drivers? You have only quoted very few former F1 drivers who spoke out, and there were plenty more that wasn't interviewed. And fact was, Button HIMSELF felt the need to apologised to Hamilton. So Button must be a stupid idiot to go and apologise when everyone think it wasn't his fault?

And for god sakes, the track was a good 6-8 car lengths wide, and Button for going where his nose was pointing, was actually pushing another driver towards the wall in that circumstances. Check out what happened to Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello at Hungary last year, Michael was also going where his nose was pointing, and had he not retired from the race the stewards would have black flagged him for doing that and pushing Barrichello into the wall, and Michael did received a 10 positions grid penalty for the next race.

This text above seemed to me that you were accusing Button. Well if we're not disagreeing about the steward's decision we must agree that neither deserved any penalty since it was neither's fault 100% and stop this useless conversation

Quote from JCTK :

The steward's decision said that Button was not penalised because they had reasonable ground to believe Button hadn't saw Hamilton in the mirrors. It would have been different had it been reasonable to believe Jensen could saw Lewis in the mirrors.

And mind you, journalists dont' go up and down the pitlane to interview every single one and ask them "what do you think of that incident"? And people don't go upto the journalists to actively offer to them their views would they? And some journalists do know who they are after to grab the "correct" headline.

I will wait a couple more days before letting you off with the last laugh. (Aka waiting for the blogs on BBC F1 site)

Yes it would've been different but they don't tell straight if they would've given any penalty were it different.

And no, journalists do not go interview every one and ask them how they feel about it. Neither Salo nor Lauda were even interviewed but instead gave their opinion to the media and since they are famous in their representative countries they did get media's attention as would've gotten every other former F1 driver.

But let's wait for few days and see if someone in BBC rules it to be Button's fault. I'll be waiting. (Mind you the F1 expert from MTV3 in Finland has said that Hamilton was more to blame than Button in their collision)

Last edited by Juzaa, Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:44.

Quote from JCTK :

Always "someone else's fault", to quote from DC, is a quality that most of the drivers that managed to win multiple championships had.

Why do I know better than former F1 drivers? You have only quoted very few former F1 drivers who spoke out, and there were plenty more that wasn't interviewed. And fact was, Button HIMSELF felt the need to apologised to Hamilton. So Button must be a stupid idiot to go and apologise when everyone think it wasn't his fault?

And for god sakes, the track was a good 6-8 car lengths wide, and Button for going where his nose was pointing, was actually pushing another driver towards the wall in that circumstances. Check out what happened to Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello at Hungary last year, Michael was also going where his nose was pointing, and had he not retired from the race the stewards would have black flagged him for doing that and pushing Barrichello into the wall, and Michael did received a 10 positions grid penalty for the next race.

Yes I have quoted only a few F1 drivers since I haven't seen anyone else take sides in press. (I was hoping you'd have seen someone to back you up and we'd have ended up in a draw) That either means they have nothing to add or they don't care.

Schumacher's and Barrichello's incident was different, Barrichello was about side by side when Schumacher made his move. Comparing Button's move to it is pointless and stupid. Had Hamilton been as far as Barrichello was Button would've gotten himself a penalty for sure.

I had not seen the stewards' decision but I don't see it as an answer to ''what if Button saw him? or was he allowed to do his move?'' They just concluded that Button didn't see Hamilton and that Hamilton thought he was to be left some room. Button had not yet moved to the side - true but he was moving towards the side all the time. So it's no wonder he eventually got to the side. To me it doesn't say much. Only that no one should be blamed and I agree with that.

Quote from sinbad :

It's because it almost never happens. You think Schumacher could have legitimately run Webber off the road at 180mph or forced him to brake as long as he did it before he was too far alongside? Nobody would ever be able to pass anybody if that sort of thing is allowed.

You cannot squeeze someone off the road or force them to brake to avoid a side-to-side contact on a straight!

There are reasons why Button will probably not be penalised, but simply being allowed to run someone into the wall is not one of them!


Not sure why I'm arguing with you anyway, you have this idea that a car which is ahead can do whatever the hell they want.

Let me follow your pattern. Since banks are almost never robbed it should be allowed? Schumacher was penalized for pushing Villneuve -97 and they shouldn't have penalized him because his move almost never happens? Button never squeezed Hamilton. He drove straight where his front end was pointing and Hamilton ran out of road. That's what happened. Not Button's fault. Had Hamilton tried overtaking from right Button couldn't have blocked it since he was already going to left and had made his move already.

JTCK; If I've sounded like Hamilton's always wrong I apologize but he's sure made a lot of mistakes in the last races. I said he never backs down. That's a positive and a negative thing at the same time. I've said he's overly agressive - which he is - but I don't remember saying Hamilton is always wrong. The thing is that when he's wrong it's always ''someone else's fault'' and that's what bothers me.

We do have a disagreement in how to judge the rules but that's not going to change. I'd like to see a former F1 driver take your stand though, since if no professional driver thinks it was Button's fault I'd like to know why do you know better than former F1 drivers?

Quote from AndRand :

Racing rules say that you can choose your racing line once on the straight. Button chose the middle so it was his fault to change it to outer line at the end of the straight. I cant see any Hamilton's fault this time.

Button chose to drive to the left. He kept going to left and didn't make any move to stay in the middle or go right. He did what the rules let him do.

JTCK; he lifted just before they touched and I can't see how they both would've hit the wall had he kept his foot on throttle. What I meant was that he has never actually let go in a situation like that. He either makes the pass or crashes.

Hyperactive; I don't believe for a second that the driver in front is responsible every time 2 drivers crash. Cause that's what some of you are suggesting. The driver behind is responsible until he gets side by side. Hamilton never got side by side so you can't blame Button.

Mika Salo said recently that Button's line was perfectly normal and he needed to drive like that to get a good line for the first corner. Niki Lauda has commented that Hamilton is a maniac. I haven't seen any former F1 driver comment that it was Button's fault. Only that it was a racing accident or that it was Hamilton's. Still there are some in these forums who believe Hamilton's always right and it's the other guy's fault no matter what happens. Neither deserved penalty and neither got one. Hamilton could've prevented the collision but didn't because he didn't see it coming before it was too late for some reason.

Quote from sinbad :

The straights are for passing. The only thing that gives Button any leeway is that the racing line goes basically where he drove, so he can say it was not a block or a belated defensive move.

On a straight you cannot move across on a car if it has even the slightest overlap, it's a lethal thing to do, but the car you move across on can let you spin yourself off into the wall if you're that mental. Hamilton shouldn't have been doomed. Other drivers could see similar moves coming in worse spray.

Watch the video above and tell me Button doesn't move at the moment Hamilton moves.

Coincidence? Maybe.

Watch the video I posted from above the situation and you'll see that Button didn't change his direction more than just a bit. A bit but not so that it would've changed the situation. From Hamilton's point of view it looks much more than it in fact is. I also think that he was allowed to block the attempt like that. You are allowed to change your line once and Button did it according to the book.

''On a straight you cannot move across on a car if it has even the slightest overlap'' Why is it then that I've seen drivers getting pushed to grass, pushed to cutting corners, and pure blocking attempts like this one and I don't remember any time when it would've resulted in a penalty in F1? Maybe because it's allowed?

If the other driver is clearly side by side you can't block him but if he's not even near your ''door'' you have the advantage and don't have to give him any room. That's the way I have understood the rules and that's the way it has been judged as long as I can remember. Hamilton was so behind that he hadn't ''earned'' the room and didn't get any.

And Mustafur, had Häkkinen kept going his tire would've been in front of Schumacher's when they would've hit.

Quote from Mustafur :

its not the same at all, Hakkinen didn't commit he was letting go of the throttle before he went along the inside, Hamilton didn't but just before contact hamilton let go of the throttle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1WuWu8kGak

is completely different to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCakp0zK2rM
for that reason.

Häkkinen was inside, their tires were alongside. He let go of the throttle after pushing himself inside. (possibly used his brakes a bit)
I now see Hamilton releasing the throttle but only fraction of a second before the collision where he was already doomed. I'm not blaming Hamilton, it was a racing incident and not many drivers would've done the same thing as Häkkinen.

All I'm saying is that the drivers in front both drove exactly the same and neither deserved nor got a penalty for their move. Now that it's Hamilton who never lets go, not even if the fate of the universe depended on it, there was only one way for it to end and in my books it's a racing accident.

Quote from Mustafur :

its different has there wasn't enough room to begin with for hakkinen so he didnt commit(he let go of the throttle before he got along side him), Hamilton was a tyre space ahead but then fell back a bit once he knew button was just going to come across regardless.

Did you watch the video? When Häkkinen begins his attempt there is enough room. Schumacher closes the opening when his rear tires are in the same line as Häkkinen's front tires. Exactly in the same position as Button has his tires with Hamilton. Schumacher and Button neither drove straight but instead drove closer and closer to the side to block the attempt. Both Häkkinen and Hamilton saw an opening and went for it but when the opening closed Häkkinen let go of the throttle and Hamilton didn't. That's the only difference. When häkkinen let go of the throttle he had room to push forward like Hamilton did. He didn't do it because he knew how it would end.

Also I don't see Hamilton falling back at all before he hits Button so I don't know what you're talking about.

Mustafur, Hamilton wasn't on the side not even close.

This pretty much proves it; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=792MUYg_aco (1:40)

I also have included a picture taken from Häkkinen's car so you can see that he was exactly at the same position. Had Häkkinen kept going it would've resulted exactly the same way. The only reason Hamilton is few inches in front when compared to Häkkinen is that he kept going until the hit, Häkkinen didn't.

I strongly believe that Button had the right to maintain his line and Lewis was supposed to let go of the gas. No penalties for neither which is good.

I have a clip for you of the greatest battle in F1 history. Schumacher vs Häkkinen in Spa. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1WuWu8kGak

If you look what happenend before Häkkinen's amazing pass (start watching from 0:30) You see the exact same move from Schumacher that Button did against Hamilton. At that time it was allowed. Why should it be banned now? Watch what Häkkinen does when Schumacher starts to push him. He withdraws and overtakes a bit later. Hamilton could have done the same. I wonder why he didn't since he has stated a few times that Häkkinen's pass from Schumacher is the greatest in F1 history and his favorite one. So he should have watched the clip enough to understand when to withdraw. I suppose he has skipped the first parts of the legendary battle and only watched the final move .

Where former legends knew how to drive without causing a collision Hamilton doesn't. Lauda himself said after Hamilton Button incident that Hamilton is completely mad and that his driving will result someone getting killed.

Somehow I have a feeling that Button will be fourth. 20 seconds penalty is quite possible from his and Alonso's collision. Too bad Schumacher didn't make it to podium.

Why on earth do they have rain tires in F1 if they aren't allowed to use them when it's raining? Everyone switched immediately rain tires off once SC returned to pit because it was too dry for them.

And did you see Schumacher's double overtake? That was fantastic.

Just thought you'd like to see this; http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/ ... da-hamilton-punished.html

Part taken from the article;

"What Hamilton did there goes beyond all boundaries," Lauda said during his commentary on RTL television. "He is completely mad.''

"If the FIA does not punish him, I do not understand the world any more. At some point there has to be an end to all the jokes. You cannot drive like this - as it will result in someone getting killed."

Quote from DevilDare :

Oh hey there Juzza, ready for another, "Hamilton must be crucified" session I see?

Still not bored?

It's getting quite boring. Just had to comment. Maybe I'll leave him be since I've already said what I think of him and this race has only strengthened my opinion.

Hamilton fans, look at the bright side; Now Hamilton has all the time he needs to wait and cool down before going to the press and comment the situation.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

What are you going on about? Assuming Button knew he was there he should have chose either inside or outside line, you can't just drive your normal line when theres a car on the outside of you.

Hamilton was behind. Way behind and Button was allowed to block the overtake. Hamilton saw it happening, kept pushing instead of giving in and eventually hit Button's rear tire. Hamilton to blame.

Was it just me or after the collision did you see Hamilton try a ''kamikaze'' move to Button? I also don't see why he kept on racing and parked his car in a bad place when he had opportunities to park it well without causing SC.

Hamilton out. Made a stupid mistake this time too. He really needs to start re-thinking his way of driving. Few laps, 2 hits (one was a racing accident though) and out.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I wonder if the teams add a bit of fuel just for this 'boost' during races. Then, as long as they've saved the correct amount of fuel, they have 3 - 5 laps of qualifying exhaust boost available that they can use for blistering outlaps or to make that difficult pass etc. As the RedBulls have a several tenth qualifying advantage it would make sense to have some of that available during the race.

Vettel seems to pull a few seconds lead after the first laps in every race and then slow down to about the same speed as the others. I believe he's using most of his ''extra fuel'' in the beginning of the race to pull a gap long enough to prevent other's use DRS and I'm quite certain we'll see that in today's race too.

It is said that the hot blown diffusers make the car 0.5-1 second faster in hotlaps. In race condition the effect isn't that big since they need to think about fuel consumption. The only way to keep the hot blown diffusers up and running where you need them (in corners) is to burn lots of fuel only to give you some downforce. That's why you can't use them much for your advance in races and most likely why Red Bull has so amazing qualifying times and yet in races they always seem to slow down when compared to other teams.

For example in Malaysia every 10 kg fuel affects your lap time for 0.45 seconds. I don't know how much the hot blown diffusers use fuel but when considering the consumption for 300km race what may seem a small amount per kilometer at first can turn into quite a huge amount of weight.