If you take in count that the license is to the extra content and racing with licensed drivers, I think that it's a good deal, since the LFS' engine (physics, graphics, multiplayer, sound, etc) is "free" (i.e. the demo racers have access for free).
If you like the way that LFS behaves in the demo, you will like more when you get the license.
I said that he shouldn't hear the fanboys, nor the ppl that don't like simulations. The other ppl he can (and should) hear before his decision.
Victor is the one that we see working more, since he is who keeps LFSworld and the forum working. Scawen's and Eric's jobs are the most silent now (and Eric's is even more silent). But I think that they decided to not doing progress reports to avoid what happened here in the forum when Victor was misunderstood on a interview and ppl thought that S2 was comming by Xmas 2004. So to avoid ppl complaining about delays or features that didn't come, Scawen decided to be silent about the developing process, what I don't agree, and there is nothing I can do (specially because I've already put my money on this project).
But talking about my relationship with LFS, I stopped with it for a month, and will not try it again until there are physics change or the new brazilian championship season starts. I want something to have fun after my job, and not a thing to get more stressed, that is what LFS became to me.
And if the championship happens before the new patch (which will likely happen, although it has not been decided the tracks or cars, nor the lengh or date to start), I WON'T use locked diffs (except if ppl decide to use the FWD cars, that have a huge dissadvantage if not used) nor the aero bug (except if there will have a race on the oval track with downforce cars, again because there are huge dissadvantages).
AFAIK, LFS is about being a hardcore simulation, to go as near as possible from the reality on physics as the computer power that we have today allow, without the pressure of big software companies nor companies (be them car manufacturers, sponsors, etc. ) , and without focus on entertaining features nor eye-candy features.
At least this is what I understood reading the main site and the forum when I started with LFS, way back ago. This is a bit different of being a software that the main developer do it as he wants, when he wants, and everyone should not question the way that he releases his progress to the public or question the way that things are being done IF the questions have the intention to make LFS even more near from reality.
So, this is what I think LFS is about, and this is what made me interested on LFS, and still keeps me interested.
Could even be one report every 3 months, it would be already very nice, and avoid some ppl loosing interest in LFS. Believe me, some don't even come here in the forum to tell that is unsatisfied, just leave it, and LFS may loose some potential S3 buyers. Ok, a small group, but the number of LFS costumers is already quite small. When I say that, is because I'm interested that the devs have the sufficient money to keep the LFS development going, and make LFS stronger.
But do you agree that those two steps need to be taken, or else it doesn't help to have all this potential ?
We know that some day on our lives they will be taken, we will all happy when this happens (including Speed Soro, that makes too much drama about his points of view, and is too much exagerated on the way that he puts his thoughts in words). I believe that if we weren't so near from a great simulator, there won't be those discussions here in the forum.
And what is even more irritating that some users here (a lot of them actually) acts as if they were Scawen's mother, trying to make a "critics shield", and do not accept opinios that are not "ohhhh my God, LFS is perfect ! ". If you just say that LFS is not perfect, the "troll killers" come to "elimiate" the threat.
This is just like the radical muslims do. Here is a discussion forum, the opinion of other ppl should be respected and HEARD, and the extremists should not be tolerated, don't matter if in favor of LFS or against LFS. And I'm not on the "against LFS" group, like some try to make me, Speed Soro, and other drivers that like LFS but don't like the bugs look like.
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Just to clarify, I have no prejudice about muslims..... I just don't agree with extremists, be them muslims, catholics or whatever the religion, that uses distorted views of the sacred words as excuses for their acts.
Try to analyse if it worths or not without looking to hardcore supporters of LFS (like mosquito, and every other ppl that go crazy when someone just don't love LFS and acts like those extremists that are protesting about the Mohammed cartoons...... yes, their reaction look very much from those, but they can't put my computer in fire unfortunately for them) or to who only blame LFS (usually fans from arcade games like NFSU, that want NOS, upgrade kits and other bullsh*t in LFS).
The first group will tell you to buy of course, the second group will say to don't buy of course.
Think if YOU are satisfied with LFS today, and if YOU think if it worths the license (won't take in count that you've used the crack) in terms of on-line races (the reason for LFS exist IMO), more tracks and more cars.
Keep in mind the following: the goal of the developers is to make the most realistic simulator by far ever in the history, without worry if it will be too difficult to drive or if it will please the noobs, and without real cars (except for some) or real tracks to avoid commercial pressures. This is what I strongly support.
Today, LFS has a great potential, but it is still not as good than it can. Since I said, it has already a very good base, but it's unpolished and have bugs. Some of them are quite old, and may frustrate some experienced drivers (like me, that play LFS since september 2003), and LFS don't have any physics update since August 2005. We will probably have a patch, that can come in one month, two months, one year or only in 2008 (or even later), and what will come in this patch, we simply don't know.
I think that for a demo racer, the other tracks and cars, and the clean on-line races between experienced and licensed drivers, the license worths the 24 pounds. The races are much more fun, challenging and clean, the tracks are very well designed, and there are some very nice cars (that makes IMO real tracks and cars don't needed). This is what comes with the S2 license. The LFS' engine itself is the same for everyone, so what I think that is not good is not exclusive for S2 licensed drivers. The S2 content (tracks and cars) I think that worth the money
For me, the fun that I had in S1 time worths 24 pounds (I had much more fun with S1 than I had with since S2 was released). And any next stage that I feel that it worths the money, I will buy it.
You can bet that the beta testers (and some Ocrana guys) have loads of informations that we don't know. And hope that anyone of them leaks some info like someone did with S2 pre-alpha... :-P
maybe you're using too much lock on the differential (try something like 40% on power and 60% coast).... if you're trying locked diffs on lx6, just forget it
IMO, the formula cars are waaaaay more difficult to drive fast than LX6 (although it's easy to drive slower with the formula cars, and the lx6 don't become easier when driving slower). Even in S1 LX6 wasn't that difficult as some insisted to say that it was.
And it's the most fun car to drive on S2, by far IMO.
Although snappy, it's predictable, and you can feel on the force feedback when it's going to the "danger point", so if you are not going to a qualify lap, you can drive quite clean with them.
I might be wrong, but I thought that I have already seen they asking that kind of thing, at least once.
But one thing you can't deny, we always had a idea of what was comming on next patch and a estimate date of the release, and usually they surprised us doing more than they said they were going to do on S1 days
Maybe they stopped doing that since the several delays of S2 release. If I'm not wrong, it was promised first to something like last quarter from 2004, and then it was delayed, delayed, until some beta tester leaked one version, and the devs almost had to release a demo to avoid ppl playing a faulty version (the leaked version had some obvious faults, that could make angry ppl even angrier).
But we can't forget that the Devs were much far from what they have expected to released in S2. Damage modeling, new diffs and some other things were planned only to S3. Maybe they didn't plan accordingly, or thought that they could do more than they actually could do.
Anyway, I still think that it's much more "healthy" to LFS to keep the community informed about the developing process. Today, we know almost nothing, that gives margin to some ppl think wrong things, and maybe make ppl angry.
I think that although there is no way to make everyone happy, the strong supporters (like I was) liked much more the days that we were informed about the developing process, than today, that we know nothing (we just know that someday somehow the devs plan to make a workaround on the aero and tyre bug, and maybe they will make S3, nothing more than this).
I'm not against anyone taking a break, but the way that the devs said, it looks like the break was too long. I know that after working for a so long time on a project it's normal to loose interest for a while, look for other activities, so a break is needed.
Anyway, LFS is still on my computer hd, taking some dust, but I will eventually try it again when a new patch is released.
And BTW, as I said before, I prefer much more a patch fixing only one issue, than a hyper mega patch fixing all bugs and adding features. The small patches could be released as test patches like the language patchs.
I'm probably so unsatisfied since LFS is the only game that I play (or whatever is used for electronic entertainment) since I donwloaded the S1a demo (something like september or october 2003). And it started to be a more a way to be stressed than have fun on the last months, and maybe it's normal when you are a big fan from something and you get frustrated with it to be very angry.
Just a single line from Scawen on the LFS main site (except "it will be released when it's done") could be much more effective than your mints and sweets. If he says "the next patch will be released on 2007 with only the aero and tyre bug fixed", I would say ok, at least I have a date to check again the site if there is something new about it, and stop acting like a dumb checking the forum weekly to see if there is any info about the development process, and get irritaded with ppl with the "shhhhhh... devs are working" attitude.
I waited for a long time before complaining for a new patch release..... Before I complained about the progress reports, but after 7 months without improvements on the way that the car acts on LFS, I think that it was enough time to Scawen fix at least the aero bug and release a patch with the fix
Bunny hop on Counter Strike was acessible for everyone (since it was a "physics" fault, and didn't need external programs to be able to use, it was just up to your ability), but was considered cheating, and anyone cought using bunny hop on leagues was just banned.
This don't prevent him from keep contact with the community talking about what he have been doing about LFS, asking the community what they would prefer to see in the next patch (I doubt that anyone would prefer the language packs instead physics improvements) like the old days.
I don't have to prove to you that I'm inteligent, because you're not my costumer, nor have paid several months ago in advance for something that I didn't release yet.
Nothing personal of course.
And just to clarify, I was NOT calling the devs lazy (I still prefer to believe that they are working hard, just having trouble to do the necessary improvements since code a software like this is far from easy, and I know that, but they could show us on what they were working on). Just wanted to give a strong example, and I run short of words to express my feelings.
Ok ok, let's keep the "shhhh, devs are working" for ever. We could even suggest to disable the forum, then there will not be anyone complaining here about bugs, long delays, etc. Let the devs do what they want at the time that they want, and give money to them trusting that we will have some update in the future.
You would have to be very very stupid for that. If you want to be a respectable dev, you need to respect your costumers.
I'm not complaining without reasons to be complaining. The difference between some here and me is that my patience with LFS is running out, and with some top grade drivers that are exploiting the physics and make LFS be like a game instead a simulator. Lots of people that say that I didn't understand the purpose of LFS is destroying it by exploiting bugs and facing LFS as a racing GAME instead a simulator.
And before someone start to criticize me, just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up.
I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games), and the lost of contact of the devs with the community.
So actually I'm frustrated with the people involved with LFS than LFS itself. If LFS din't have those bugs, the situation would be different, but the fault is from the people involved with LFS. It may sound contraditory with what I've saying for some time, but it's something that I concluded now.
Well, you all assume that Scawen is working on physics.
Some say "wait, he started working on physics in January, so we will have to wait for some more months to have a patch".
But, what were Scawen doing since the release of S2 alpha ? Taking a break ?? Since August they should have been working on physics, because the aero bug is known before the release of patch P2 (on August).
He said that only now that he started to work again he will look into physics issues.... So they are telling us that from August to November they were working only on minor bugs and language patchs someway, from november to january they did nothing, and just now they will start to look into the issues ??
Everyone is saying that devs are working so hard that they can't even read the forum or write a progress report, but if you look what I said, there are good reasons to doubt that they are working that hard. They don't write a single word about what they have been working, with some unaceptable excuses (telling what they were doing just kept the community more interested in LFS rather then made ppl believe that some things were going to be done and they don't).
Everyone believe that they are working hard, but did they show any proof that they are doing it ? Ok, LFS is a big piece of work for a single guy, and everyone believes him based on what we have today, but what we have today is almost the same thing as 8 months ago, and since then we have just very small info hidden in this forum.
IMO, there is no reason to believe in this, and what makes me doubt even more is their attitude about the critics on LFS, and the way that they have lost the touch with the community.
Ok, some lucky guys may have contact with Scawen, and they say that he is working. But I would never tell a costumer from a friend of mine that my friend is lazy and he will not do his work on time (I'm not calling Scawen nor the other devs lazy)..... I believe that the devs need to be more in touch with the community like on the old days. Today they only come here when there are BIG issues that may hurt license selling (like the ATI driver's bug).
Not with a smile, but a BIG smile, you can be sure about that, even if the next patch just adress the current issues with aero and differentials, without any new feature.
A workaround that we could do would be a pact to forbid using locked diffs except for drag races, and using the high nose bug, at least on leagues.
But I really doubt that someone would agree with that, and it would be very hard to verify if anyone is using them..... so it would be pointless. And I will not drive on worse condition than others...
Yeah, but look the kind of posts that we have here in the forum. We have even some ridiculous and/or prejudiceous posts like the "Are there midgets playing LFS ? ".
I don't believe in the theory that being quiet here in the forum will make the LFS development faster, this is bullsh**. Scawen need to be able to handle pressures. If he gets angry with who don't like that we are using the same physics since several months ago (more than 7 months), what can he do about that ? Ban who is complaining here in the forum or cancel the license ? But if we all shut up and live him without a single complain, I think that he will think that his situation is more confortable than it is today.
Someone need to remember him that WE (and when I say we, I'm not talking about brazillians, but every LFS driver with some experience) are not satisfied with this situation.
And personally, I don't care if other racing sims are not as good as LFS. The point is that LFS is not good enough, don't matter the competition.
Just to remember Ayrton Senna, sometimes he had the pole position, but at the end of the qualifying session, he went to the track to make a better lap. Although the previous lap was good enough to be the pole position, it wasn't the best that he could do, so he went to the track to do the best that he could do, no matter the competition. He did it several times.
But they need to make money at least to eat, live in a decent place, hang out with friends or girlfriends sometimes.... They don't look like want to be rich with LFS, but they need to make money to be able to live at least. Unless they start to do farming on their gardens, make their own clothes, but even then they would have to pay for their home.
I think that you didn't understand that I'm not against the way that LFS is being developed (or more exactly, the purpose of LFS, that is to be the most realistic simulator ever, without commercial pressures, but with a close relationship with the costumers and fans from hardcore racing simulators), but the lack of news about the developing process like we had on S1 days. In the old days, we knew what changes were gonna be made, now, we just know that "a patch with bug fixes will be released when it's ready", but how far from being ready is something that officially we don't have a single report for more than 7 months.
I like much more the relationship that the devs had with the community on the old days than today. They seemed to care much more about the community than they care today.
I trust that devs will fix those bugs someday, or else, I wouldn't have spent my money on S2 before it's officially released.
Well, if he said that, why not on a progress report but underneath in this forum ? This is kind of a progress report, and this I believe that would calm down the people that is unsatisfied with LFS physics (or better, the way that ppl have been exploiting bugs) today.
I didn't see all Scawen's posts on this forum, so now we can expect by April or May a new physics patch. If it just fixes the aero bug and makes a workaround for the differentials, I will be happy. For now, I think that we don't need more than that.
If I'm not wrong, 2xAF is just not sufficient to give a higher image quality than standard filtering (like bilinear filtering). Try 8x, and look for the curbs and asphalt textures on a medium distance.
And I hope that I'm still alive when it happens...... There is even patient people waiting for Jesus to come again to Earth, and they strongly believe that it will happen.
Me either, and if possible, a estimate date for the next patch release (even if he says 5 months or so)
Yes, but this is taking so long to be fixed, and Simbin didn't stop developing their engine. They can even do that before Scawen finish fixing those bugs (if he is working on that, what at this point, I don't know if he is doing that or doing research for other features), since they have more people and more money involved, and I bet that Simbin has good programmers.
And I believe that going against who complains about it here in the forum changes even less.
Ok, some months ago, I agree that it was pointless to be complaining, but c'mon, those bugs are since S2 L, that I even don't remember when it was released (before August 2005 for sure, because patch P was released on August, that is 7 months ago, and after patch P it was only minor bug fixes and language packs). We don't have even a single progress report (apart from the Scawen's kitchen progress report).
As I said on another thread, LFS has a very realistic physics IF you don't use bug exploiting sets. BUT to be competitive these days, you almost NEED to use buggy sets.
Probably the guys at BHM don't know that (well, they say that the default sets are great, so I'm sure that they don't know that), or didn't tried to be on par with WR laps.
OK, Simbin physics system is not marvelous, but depending on the way that you look, today it is better than LFS physics. At least you don't get extra speed if you put the nose of the car all the way up.
I'm afraid that those awards will delay the release of a new patch, since Scawen will probably feel on a more confortable situation, but what I see is that the non hardcore fans from LFS are starting to leave LFS, and as I said before, LFS won't survive only from the hardcore fans (Scawen, Eric and Victor won't be able to afford the developing and living costs with only the money from the hardcore fans, they will have to find a job, what would make the LFS development even slower, or leave the LFS development)
Before it wasn't so critical, but now, everyone is using locked diffs and high nose. So, it's not a simulator anymore.
Ok, I also got tired from moaning, but I also got tired with this buggy physics that we are using since 7 months ago without a single update (if I'm not wrong, we had never passed through a such long period without updates on LFS physics).
On the old days, we had much more news and updates, that was almost impossible to go with buggy sets, since at least each 2 or 3 months a new physics patch was released. Now the physics system got so old, that although it can give a realistic feel, the sets that ppl are using to be fast is making LFS looks more like an arcade game than a simulator.
If the way that it's been developed was intended to create the best simulator ever, but for now, it failed on it's goals.
Ok, the situation is not better with GTL, that I tried and didn't like too much. LFS without bug exploiting setups is better, but using them you are not competitive, so it lost it's sense...
I prefer much more a simple patch that do a workaround for the aero and diff bugs for now than later a bigger "flawless" patch 8 months from now.
Just to clarify, I'm not against on the way that LFS is being developed, but on the way that we are absolutely without know what the devs are doing and without any updates on the engine.
IMO, with a little work the fun with LFS could be restored, at least for me.
Let us all do this, and Scawen will never feel the need to update LFS and loose members from this community, and only the hardcore fans will continue playing LFS (and the number of S3 licensed drivers can fall considerably).
LFS already has a small market, and it can not survive only from the hardcore fans, and it's good that Scawen don't forget this.
In such high resolution, I would lower the AA setting to 2x and raise the AF setting to at least 8x. I believe that in such high resolution AF tends to be more critical to image quality than AA, since higher resolution round the edges, but don't fix the texture anisotropy problems.
I believe that the paranoids have sufficient reasons to believe that the development process of LFS is gonna be stopped, or at least S2 final is going to be what we have today, and we will have to wait for S3 to get the aerodynamics and the other bugs fixed.
We all know that the costs to live in England are pretty high, and LFS is someway cheap and have a small number of licensed drivers.
The latest language patches are the kind of thing that is on the last lines of the to do list, something that is done before releasing an almost finished product.
So, there is a possibility that devs are doing the last touches to give LFS an aspect of a finished product, give us a last patch with minor updates on physics and abandon the LFS project or at least, abandon S2 and leave all other updates to S3, since they are probably not making sufficient money from LFS, and they are stuck on S2 development for quite a long time (so they need to go to S3 to make more money to live, or even the money from the ppl that are waiting S2 final to buy the license).
And I bet that they thought that the number of licensed drivers would be much higher than it actually is.