Really, just read many of the posts made by Andy and myself, and the responses we've recieved (and anyone who shares our views) - and some we've returned.

I stopped posting in this thread along time ago - Not because they 'disagree with my entire world view'. They're just too politically correct to see it.

I stopped posting in here because people have no understanding for the views of other people - If their views clash with another persons view (from both sides of the story), they often argue, throwing many petit insults and sly comments towards one-another.

It went from people standing by their morales and views, to people becoming completly ignorant to the views of other people - often completely ignoring the context and content of a post, only to either make some pathetic, and frankly lame insult, or to spam links to a random piece of text from a journalist or/and newspaper of some sort that don't even relate to the topic in hand.

It's a nasty thread.

yes, Doc it would be better to fill those gaps with british nationals, but there isn't much hope on most fronts with this obsession of pushing all school leavers into higher education and on to get degrees that are totally useless or not suited for a academic career.
so what you end up with is useless university drop outs or people with dregees with no vocational value.

That was you posting all those links, I didnt read most of them as most of them didnt even back up your claims, and none had the context of the overall situation. It is my belief that your views are miss-informed and based upon a very narrow observation of "jolly foreigner". I've heard your world view, I don't like it.

It actually makes me feel ashamed because you have a British flag next to your name and I thought the world had moved on somewhat from the views that you have expressed, it saddens me when I see shadows of darker times still lurking in the present, and that really is how I see the views that you have expressed here. It's nothing to do with my own "political correctness", I genuinely am a very liberal person, but I give no quarter for being politically correct, it simply is not something that comes into my conscious thought process.

That's why your being argued down, people really do find your moral standpoint offensive these days. It's nothing to do with petit insults, it's because your clinging on to an ancient stereotype of Imperial idealism that never did exist outside of our French aristocracy in the first place, less you forget that East Anglia was built by the Dutch, and our railways by the Irish... Oh wait, that was all Isambard Kingdom Brunell wasnt it - he built them single handed!

I see your views as archaic, like something out of the jurrasic era. I'll gladly discuss your views but dont expect me to bend mind to yours, it simply wont happen and neither do I dont expect to get through to you too, but whilst dialogue is entertained I dont mind the discussion. I'll simply go away thinking of you as being bigotted and wrong, you will think of me as a namby pampy liberal and think I am wrong.

One simply doesnt change ethical standpoints from an internet forum, we're born liberal - questioning everything but judging nothing. It's only wage age we become bitter, twisted, and intollerent - so as you can see, I really dont expect you to wisen up to modern times any time soon.

Quote from patrese :

yes, Doc it would be better to fill those gaps with british nationals, but there isn't much hope on most fronts with this obsession of pushing all school leavers into higher education and on to get degrees that are totally useless or not suited for a academic career.
so what you end up with is useless university drop outs or people with dregees with no vocational value.

I fully agree m8 , its a vicious cycle we are in ... and i see it going nowhere good

Improve training , not how far we can open our doors

And its $tiff or Mart to you sir !

I didn't post any links regarding the issues sorrounding my agreement with some of the BNP's views. You must have gotten me confused with Andy or ATC Quicksilver or someone. - In fact, apart from my sarcasm fail and serious cat pictures, all content was written from my head, without needing to provide links to 3rd party infomation.

Most of my debates took place with 5haz, since he decided to take out his anger at not getting any dinner on me for the space of a week or so.

As much as I respect your opinions and the like, my views, although self admittantly somewhat harsh and idealistic, almost archaic as you've described, I stand by them firmly. I'm a rather intollerant person, as you may have noticed. This is for personal reasons - I wasn't born like this.

I'm not sure you understand the reasons behind my opinions - That immigrants often get first choices over things, they can't be arsed to learn the language of the country that either let them enter (as I've said many moons ago, to a day to day level, I wouldn't expect them to be able to talk as fluently as you or I, well, after 10 years it'd be a bit of a pisstake) to work for money in the first place, or to scrounge off of our benefit system.

I never once said that I wouldn't/don't want people to emmigrate to Britain to improve their life - What I did say is that many of the anti-racism laws aren't anti-racism at all, just a get out of jail free card for those immigrants in question, and that those people who emmigrate into Britain and then scrounge of benefits should be sent back or relocated in countries neighbouring their own. Why should we pay for them to get, probbably a comparable amount of money as to what us mere mortals may recieve, when we have to get up at 7am, work till 6pm, have no time to spend with loved ones, or doing the things we want to do, while the lazy bastards sit at home watching The Jeremey Kyle Show (ok that's a British stereotype but you get my meaning) all day for basically the same money.

I would never expect a person to magically begin to think the way I do, nor, I hope, do they expect me to do the same - A simple understanding and a "Oh you have a point on that actually" or "It does make sense to some degree" regarding a couple of my ideas here and there is not asking someone to bend their mind to my rather unconventional way of thinking. And I do the same in return.


But I'm sorry I make you feel ashamed of Britain. But I can't quite understand how my views, which, co-incidenatly, many people may secretly agree ... or one, voted 'not sure'), but never quite have the either courage or outspoken nature about themselves to say it, make it so that I need to 'wise up' to modern times. I'm wise enough to have my own view, with reasons, but mature enough to understand and respect others. I understand that, for one, you and I will never see the same side of the book, and in many ways, that's what keeps the world going round - We have all the PC people, such as you (no offense, seriously), with their own reasons, and the un PC people (such as me), again for their own reasons. Often, both sides' views are combined and, in theory (hopefully in practise - time will tell), a fair and agreeable outcome or common viewpoint can be formed for both parties.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

since he decided to take out his anger at not getting any dinner on me for the space of a week or so.

How did you know!

Yeah, just don't label me a bandwagoning idiot just because I don't agree.

Oh gawd, please not another infraction!

I didn't - I've explained to you why I said you were bandwagoning. You again miss the point and thus, haven't learnt.

Combine it with just a sample of some of the nasty comments (which you recieved a just punishment), which, admittedly, I made a couple towards you as well - is just the kind of nasty comments at which I was describing to Becky just a couple of posts above you.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I stopped posting in this thread along time ago.

Funny, you're the third person in this thread saying this... and then continuing with a long post.

This thread is like crystal meth: it's nasty stuff, but people keep coming back for more.

Quote from Becky Rose :

East Anglia was built by the Dutch

Speaking of which, we've got some unpaid invoices here. With a couple centuries of compound interest, that'll be ...

Quote from wsinda :

This thread is like crystal meth: it's nasty stuff, but people keep coming back for more.
Speaking of which, we've got some unpaid invoices here. With a couple centuries of compound interest, that'll be ...

Technically it was only compost interest/accumulation, and seriously look around, East Anglia isnt worth much. ( I know, its where I live - it's WHY I live here ).

Quote from Becky Rose :

I see your views as archaic, like something out of the jurrasic era.

Thats a perfect example of what C.S. Lewis called "chronological bigotry" the idea that contemporary thought is better than all previous values and ideals simply because it is newer. That is simply not true.

Immigrants are taking advantage of your health care system. It is the long waiting lines and rationing of healthcare evident in the UK that scares Americans away from what could be a beneficial system if everyone paid into it equally.

S14 drift mentioned that 58% of people in Britian are against immigration. The majority is always right. Even though I dont like Obama, but the majority voted for him, therefore he is the winner. If the majority of people don't want any further immigration, and immigration continues, you are not being represented by your government. This happens all over the world, America especially.

As I said before it should be the choice of the community how many people can immigrate into your area. Areas that are more liberal will allow more immigrants, conservative areas will vote for less. More people will be happy.

Quote from flymike91 :

S14 drift mentioned that 58% of people in Britian are against immigration. The majority is always right.

You can't have the majority making decisions for minority. Immigration is not at all like some presidential election.

Quote from Hyperactive :

You can't have the majority making decisions for minority.

Ah, so you prefer to live in a dictatorship? In a DEMOCRACY the majority should make the decisions.

Quote from flymike91 :

58% of people in Britian are against immigration. The majority is always right.

No, it isn't. The majority gets to decide, but the majority should not unnecessarily tread on the interests of the minority. That's why we have anti-discrimination laws: to protect the minority from the foolishness of the majority. And that's why the transition to Nazi rule in Germany in 1933, even though taken by majority vote in the Reichstag, was morally wrong.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Ah, so you prefer to live in a dictatorship? In a DEMOCRACY the majority should make the decisions.

In a democracy you vote for people who make the decisions for you. In dictatorship you don't get to vote. I like that I can vote.

There are clearly some things that should never be decided by public vote. One is the legality of marriage of the same sex which is a great example. Make it a public vote and see the consequensies.

Quote from Hyperactive :

In a democracy you vote for people who make the decisions for you. In dictatorship you don't get to vote.

In the UK it seems that you vote for people who make decisions for THEMSELVES!!
To be fair, I think that proportional representation should be implemented as soon as possible.

On the subject of the minority having the final say, can I just point out two glaring examples of 'minority' rule, that the global consensus thought was a bad idea, and was subsequently changed.... Zimbabwe and South Africa.

****, can we please let this thread die? It's pointless ranting about bullshit. All government has a problem, no matter what.

Quote from Hyperactive :

In a democracy you vote for people who make the decisions for you. In dictatorship you don't get to vote. I like that I can vote.

we never voted for Gordon Brown, he was shoehorned in as our new PM, ergo we aren't living in a 'democracy' as such

I wanna know where this delusion that we live in a demogratic society comes from........

Quote :

Thats a perfect example of what C.S. Lewis called "chronological bigotry" the idea that contemporary thought is better than all previous values and ideals simply because it is newer. That is simply not true.

No it isnt. I believe in fairness and equality. If you read my earlier posts regarding the class system and such then you might see that I pretty much disagree with the concept of nation. It is an artificial division between peoples to have wave the flag of our leader around. Why should we be 'proud of Britain'? I am at times proud of Britain, but why? It's an artificial division contrived a few centuries ago.

If we look back a few hundred years then we did not have the concept of nations.

So as you can see, i'm quite prepared to accept that chronology alone is not a basis for improvement. However I do feel that if you are STUCK in the past and in believing and interpretation of it that is false, then you yourself are a dinosaur and should move aside for the younger generation. I'm not all that young these days, but i'll stand proudly beside them as the majority of younger people are far less likely to be judgemental.

Quote :

Immigrants are taking advantage of your health care system. It is the long waiting lines and rationing of healthcare evident in the UK that scares Americans away from what could be a beneficial system if everyone paid into it equally.

America's healthcare is the worst of the developed world. Britains is rated 17th internationally (bearing in mind the list includes principalities as seperate entities), placing us substantially ahead of Afircan states, and only behind a few countries which aren't quite so broke as us and dont have an army that has a whole 1/3rd of the running cost of the health service (army a few hundred thousand, health service 70 odd million).

Every country with socialised health service is ahead of you. Every single one. Your health service suppresses the poor and conservative Americans dont have an issue with this because they are not the poor.

Quote :

S14 drift mentioned that 58% of people in Britian are against immigration.

As mentioned previously i'm not following most of the links in this thread, it takes me an hour or so to research sources and what have you and frankly unless it's published by the national statistics office then the results where clear long before the first person got asked. I could click the link and start refuting it, I could even try having an open mind, but i've been around far too long to be anything but cynical of statistics. Afterall, statistics are a significant part of my day job, I know how to make numbers lie.

Quote :

The majority is always right. Even though I dont like Obama, but the majority voted for him, therefore he is the winner. If the majority of people don't want any further immigration, and immigration continues, you are not being represented by your government. This happens all over the world, America especially.

Making you one of those Conservative Christians? Eeeek. No wonder I dont like anything you've said. Seriously, think about it, the West is very much divided between groups like the Conservative neo-cons and the BNP, and the rational more liberal more frequently aethiest (although i'm not) thinkers. There's the advanced intelligent society we're trying to become (the liberals) and those who are reacting to it (it's all too much stick your head in the sand and pray God will save us Conservative Neo Cons)

I've always found the Conservative a somewhat curious creature. Do you have lizard tongues or are they like us? I'm told you have a particular smell, something to do with your diets, and that the lack of carrots in your diet means you cant see as well at night. I think you shouldnt have a say in our country, I think you should go home, not use our superior healthcare, and I think if you stay here more than 2 weeks you should learn our language properly and stop calling nappies "dypers". I think your all a bunch of warmongers who want to build churches everywhere and force Christianity on us and make people wear those Puritan hats.

You see what I did there?

Dangerous terrain, becky! Personal experience and statistics (partly made up by myself) suggest that both 'mericans and right wing persons don't understand sarcasm, irony and satire. :P

I kind of find it amusing in here that those with a "no tolerancy" policy of everything strange to them actually want to be tolerated. Oh the... see point above ^^

I have no problem being a hypocrite, it's when other people do it that I get annoyed.

Oh, becky, you misunderstood me. The "tolerancy" point wasn't actually aimed at you, but at those complaining that they get shunned for sharing quite outdated political ideas which already led to two world wars up to now.
IMHO there's a difference between being intolerant for starters, and being intolerant towards those who were beforehand intolerant towards somebody else. We have a saying here: "The way you shout into a forest, it echoes back to you".

What does believing in majority rule have to do with being a conservative christian? They are a minority in America obviously or Obama would have lost.

Again you have a certain difficulty staying away from personal insults. I guess that proves how much more rational liberals are.

Quote from flymike91 :

I guess that proves how much more rational liberals are.

About 5 times more than conservatives, from my experience, seeing that atleast with liberals I can actually have a conversation about anything (in most cases, mind you), while with conservatives, well, any argument is refuted by shotguns and machine guns pointed my way.

No politicians are out to please you - They don't have a conversation, much rather spit bullshit that makes it seem they're on your side.