You're paying for a cleaner running engine and slightly more power - I can definatly notice a difference.
And please don't generalise diesels like that... not forgetting a diesel won the Le Mans, and last time I checked they're doing pretty well in the WTCC as well.
the actual fuel that the "diesel" le mans cars run on has just about nothing to do with normal diesel which you and i would put in our cars, and they are owning in WTCC because the rules give them a massive advantage.
As well as that, in day to day driving a diesel (normal one, mind) is quicker...
Take the BM 320d and the 320i...
The diesel one kicks out 175bhp and does 0-60 in 7.9 seconds..
The petrol one does 0-60 in 8.2 seconds and has 168bhp..
Not to mention the extra pulling power from the diesel which will be very noticeable on the road in normal driving. And you get an extra 10mpg or so..
It's the same story across the board, apart from a few cars I'd always have the diesel engine over the petrol because it's quicker in the real world and you get more miles between trips to the pumps
But you can't say that, Blackout.. it's an unfair comparison to make
Nearly all diesel engines are turbocharged, it's just how they work. Irrelevant point to make. They turbocharge them because if unturbocharged, they'd be so slow and woeful no-one would buy them.
Just like if your car wasn't fuel injected you'd get carb-icing in the winter and nobody would buy one of them, either.
However, the powerband of a diesel car is horrible, you get nothing for ages, up to about 2k RPM, then you get everything in one big lump, then you hit the limiter and have to go up a gear. and as i said, you may get more MPG, but the actual fuel costs more. it 'isnt' quicker in the real world, considering the average diesel lump is far heavier than the petrol equivalant, so the handling is severly compromised. and realisticly, your making a big deal out of .3 of a second, you would never notice that in the real world, and any torque advantage is levelled out by the short powerband.
I still do not see the point in diesel engine cars, if im being honest. tiny diesel supermini's are pointless, because diesel cars are designed for sitting on the motorway, and doing that in a supermini would be horrible. on the other side of the scale, a big diesel engined car with a proper amount of power will do so little mpg you might aswell have a petrol for the extra enjoyment of driving.
I've seen an MX5 for under 2k Jak, was in good condition, best place to buy is from Used Car Dealerships, they sell honest prices private sellers don't realise how MUCH they are asking for their cars but people still buy privately rather than from used dealers. The reason it's cheap is because of insurance though.
Whilst there may be potential in compression igintion systems it certainly isn't with diesel as we know it, regardless of whether they can do the task on paper modern diesels still sound horrible, are less responsive than the petrol cars (far more important than peak power for everyday driving) and have narrow powerbands. Trying to compare spark and compression ignition engines isn't straight forward, simply saying that a forced induction engine can beat a naturally aspirated engine of the same capacity is meaningless, not to mention the rules have been bent in their favour. If there were no rules I'm pretty sure alcohol powered forced induction spark ignition would be favoured for circuit racing.
a kia rio 1.5 DCI, a 1.9 megane and a horrible little clio, which may cloud my opinions slightly, but if you dont mind me asking, what modern petrols have you driven, considering you dont have a license? or indeed, diesels?
Stop hating diesels, clearly you don't know how to drive them when you are on the limiter, because diesels aren't supposed to be driven this way. Any diesel fuel is just a fuel that explodes under compression but sometimes a specific temperature is needed for this to happen, yes diesel engines are heavier, significantly, but if the chassis is rigid enough to hold it, it shouldn't be a problem.
People always seem to say that diesels in ANY motorsport are given a regulations advantage, the fact of the matter is, they wouldn't be as competitive without the rules, it doesn't GIFT them the performance, it still has to be there anyway but any diesel engined car winning ANYTHING these days is always a Volkswagen.
I am entitled to my opinions on a discussion forum, as are you. im merely stating mine. and what do you mean by "clearly you don't know how to drive them when you are on the limiter"? are you meant to drive along in a diesel car bouncing off the limiter? as far as i was aware, shifting up a gear when on the limiter is the usual way to drive a car, bloody hell i must be terribly misinformed, ive been shifting up gears all these years when i could just bounce it off the limiter :O
and anyway, we arent talking about racing, jakg isnt going to track it any amount, were talking about whats best for just getting from A > B, so any racing discussion is irrelevant.
precisely, thus they are being given an advantage, surely?
I've driven no diesels myself (quite a few modern petrol engines though although only on bikes as I've only done my bike test as of yet.. hmm diesel bike, that's an idea. )
But to be fair, a few of my family members have diesels, and Joe took me down to the Race Center Meet in his little Panda D..and it was a decent enough little car.. sure it's not a firecracker but I couldn't tell it was a diesel from inside of it and it pulled well enough to keep up with motorway traffic so
Alex, it's torque that's most important for every day driving... put your foot down in 5th gear at 50mph in a petrol, and the same in a compareable diesel (take those 3 series for example) and the diesel would pull away without a problem, not forgetting it's quicker overal, anyway.
Granted, peak power isn't always as good in a diesel, but as you say it's not overly important (but technology is improving!)
Deko, yes mate your judgement has been clouded, none of them are overly good cars.. as I said try a Bimmer or a VW.. those new 2.0 TDI's in the Golf, Passat etc are, apparently, very good.. 136bhp and 240ish ft/lb of torque across the range.
E : But yeah, BlueFlame is right.. you can't drive a diesel like a petrol. Live with one for a month and get used to how you have to work the engine and you'll see the light.
It's all about low range, what is it with people on the limiter in ANY car.. It's pointless unless you want to look like a cock. Especially a diesel although granted, if you're in a BAD diesel car you WILL need to rev the bollocks off it to get anywhere but the more you abuse your diesel the more you probobly damage the peak power output anyway but that's why diesels should be turbocharged, to give you the extra power at the top end of the rev range. Still, it shouldn't be needed but having driven Ford Transits on many occasion, you really do have to ring its neck to get anything out of it.
No it isn't the Rover 45 was the medium sized saloon. The 25/ZR was a hatchback based on the Mk3 200, a good car for its time but mechanically they're a 15 year old front wheel drive hatchback and things have moved on a long way, and if you're that picky about mileage and feel then you may as well forget about them.
Dream on...
You never drove it quickly and it was a diesel? Ford Europe has been producing the best handling and all round dynamically excellent cars since the Focus (although they may be slipping a bit with the fat new range). If you really don't like the Fiesta for its lack of feel then forget about anything VAG or Rover were producing 10 years ago! Or any other modern FWD car really.
It really isn't that bad, you're going to get similar mileage from any car of a similar age that you're looking at. If you want something faster (bigger engine) and more involving (going to have to be a petrol) you're not going to get that mileage. Then again there is the question why do you need something bigger if you're main concerns are lack of involvement (heavy overly powerful engines do nothing to help), cost (going t be more expensive to insure, tax and fix) and fuel economy (likewise)
Standard grade petrol all comes from the same sources and is bought and sold by traders in London, even if there is a substantial difference between sources (which I doubt with the quality of modern fuel) each petrol station won't stock the same source fuel for long.
You can pick E36 M3s up for that, complete dogs though, an old car being cheap probably means it is well past its sell by date.
your argument slightly backfires here, trying to undermine my argument and then admitting that you yourself have no experience, how can i take anything after this seriously?
a little petrol engined car also has enough puff to keep up with motorway traffic, i never had any problems at all cruising along at 80 on the motorway every week day for about 3 months in a 60 bhp 1.2 punto. and indeed, any diesel car ive been in has admittently been very refined at 70+, i grant you that, but chances of you hearing the engine above road and wind noise are slim anyway.
no it isnt, whats more important for every day driving is responsiveness. put your foot down at 50 in a petrol car and you wont get much, but it will pull at a not bad rate, and you would drop a couple of cogs if you were ever in that situation, anyway.
however, in a diesel car, you would put your foot down, wait a while for the turbo to spool up and the revs to rise, then get a surge of torque. i know what i would prefer.
only point i agree with.
i could give you the same advice, i have actually driven a few diesel cars, what experience are you drawing on? how about you go test them, instead of making judgements from what other people say?
It is all about using the full powerband, and if it is any turbo charged car, you will have nothing at the low end, everything for a split second in the middle, and then nothing.
your logic is baffling. you say using the full rev range makes you look a cock, but admit the only point in a turbocharged engine is to give power at the high end, which would make you look a cock?
To be honest Jack, I'm not sure if you've though this whole thing through seriously.
You're still a young'en, but don't worry because we all have to go through the "shit car" stage.. but you're still in it.. stick with something that's crap, because if you crash into another hedge it won't cost you alot to fix. Tbh I'd either keep the Proton, or get something even smaller, like a supermini. Let's face it, you're not going to be doing any major mileage, they'll cope with motorway runs pretty happily at 70-75mph anyway, and any faster than that would just be wasting fuel.
But lol at a Fiesta being crap to drive! I missed that bit.
Y'know.. for £2000, just buy a Corsa or even better, a Ford Ka (Very nice to drive, so I'm told) and enjoy the very nice fuel economy and the cheap-to-run-ness. The tax will be cheap and it'll be cheap to insure and to repair if you have a ding. Unfortunatly you won't get a quickish, "nice to drive" car that's economical on your budget.
anyway, after slaughtering S14 there, i thought i might get back on topic, for a change. Jack, the best advice i can give is to stick at it. give it a while, turn 18, get a years No claims, see what options that gives you for insurance, and in the mean time, save up even more. I made the mistakes your thinking of making, chopping and changing cars, it left me with just about no money left, no no claims and having to look at worse cars than i once rejected. Learn from my mistakes.
Because you're just looking for anyway possible to disagree with me
I never said that petrol didn't: however did you watch on Top Gear when Clarkson took the diesel Lupo and the petrol Lupo around the M25? The diesel one would pull away from the petrol one all the time!
Saying that, modern diesels, when warm, are hard to tell, even at low speeds. Besides, it's not like you have your head out the window as you drive along.
Ok then, that's why many road testers and most of the more knowledgable road users I know (and myself) swear by torque over responsiveness.. either way, a diesel will pull harder and stronger than any compareable diesel, which in the real world for overtaking, motorways and general cruising about is what you want.
(major Spinoff in white)
I used to own a little 2T Aprila RS125. Throttle response was electric. It'd rev straight away and loved doing so. Increase the throttle and it'd instantly adjust... however it had NO TORQUE AT ALL. I was constantly having to roam around the gears often having to rag the shit out of it just to make it so much as move.. now I have moved up to a Z750.. it's been restricted to 33bhp so it has about 4bhp more than my RS125 did. Apart from the fact it weighs twice as much, it accelerates about the same. However, if I want to doodle through town at 30mph in 6th gear, I can do so. I could do this on both bikes, however when I cleared the town and wanted to accelerate, on the RS I was completely flummoxed as it didn't have the torque to pull itself up into the "power". (I rode a YZR-125 which is a 4T and it'd do it, although not happily, it'd take a long time). I can ride on my Z750 through a town at 30mph and when I get past it, I don't have to change down to make suitable progress, it just pulls itself out. The throttle response on the Z isn't anywhere near as good as the RS's, but it has the TORQUE which is what pulls you along... kinda confusing and slightly off topic but i think you get my point lol
Most modern turbos are sorting the whole "lag" thing out, although lag happens to all turbocharged engines, not just diesel ones. Try a new Bimmer 3/535d with it's twin turbos and see what you think of that..
Well I'd consider being an avid reader of well known motoring publications, EVO, Autocar and the like, that their reviewers (some of whom are very well known within the motoring community) probably know their stuff or they wouldn't be reviewing cars in the first place. As I said I know plenty of people who have diesels and the real world advantages just make 'sense' to me over petrol (unless you're doing under 15k miles and it's your company car. )
It's ok, I can see you're in the "hate diesel" group so keep being happy. While you're stopping for petrol and having to change gears to pull yourself up to speed, I'm gunna keep on cruisin' along!! :woohoo:
You should be able to instantly identify how many cylinders and what form of ignition you're engine is running on with ease.
Torque is totally irrelevant, you can have your power anywhere in the engine it doesn't really matter. The two things that are important in a road engine are responsiveness (which diesels are hopeless at) and the powerband, if you've only got a small range to use your enormous torque it is far worse than having a bit everywhere, hence why in a diesel you have to be constantly changing gear and your example shows just how little you appreciate about the difference of a diesel. In your example a typical diesel would be bellow its powerband and when the engine finally got round to responding to the request for more speed it wouldn't have anything to deliver and rather than a massive amount of torque very little would happen and even a powerful 'sports' diesel would get bogged down and not have the power it needs when it needs it. A petrol will typically respond and pull from pretty much any revs, smaller engines won't be so good at low revs but they don't chug along so nicely down there anyway.
I am indeed not, im just dis-agreeing with ridiculous things your saying. you did try to insinuate that i didnt know what i was talking about because you thought i had never driven a diesel car, when it turns out its actually you.
I have seen that episode, and IIRC they drove round, mainly in traffic, not trying to see "who would pull away" from each other. they were just staying with each other.
True, but if you cant tell if your in a petrol or diesel car, you have big problems.
well, i disagree, as do many people i know, aswell. i would rather have instant response than have to wait, for a tiny bit more power. it may indeed pull a bit stronger, but the difference is hardly noticeable. and anyway, peak torque in the 330d, for example, is at 4k RPM, surely you arent driving around at 4k all the time, are you?
(major Spinoff in white)
<big bit here off topic, so, well, deleted>
i fully agree, i also consider myself an avid reader of various car-related publications, but i value my own opinions more than somebody elses, people can be wrong, you know.
Im actually not in any hate diesel group, if i did a decent amount of miles (over 15000 a year) then i would buy a diesel car as soon as i could, but i just do not agree with the fact that diesel cars are better for just plain 'driving' than petrol cars, which you seem to think. why do you think most enthusiast cars (MX5, S2000, etc) have petrol engines?
and your saying I have to change gears more? its pretty damning that a lot (im not saying all, but a lot) of modern small engined diesel cars have 6 gears, while petrol have 5. i think that speaks volumes for the amount of stirring of the gearbox is actually needed.
Lighten up, i was joking because you had'nt replied.
because of mis-information and scare mongering they are indeed getting more popular, but it wont last long.
Jamie you're getting muddled up with torque and throttle response. Both your petrol bikes should be very responsive, the smaller one will probably be a bit more responsive, but it doesn't really make a difference. You put your foot down/twist your risk and the engine starts delivering its goods as quickly as possible and if you're trickling along at low revs then it will be low end torque that determines how much power you get. In a diesel the difference is that by putting your foot down you have to wait for a response, even if it can deliver much more power at the revs you start from you've still got to wait for it to do so, this is highly frustrating and makes any chance of proper throttle control in a diesel remote. The car that is actually fastest is irrelevant to driving satisfaction, which is where diesels fail badly at.
I don't know what magazines you read but I certainly don't see many journalists saying anything other than such and such a diesel engine is technically superb but it lacks response and driving satisfaction of the petrol. If you haven't driven a diesel I suggest you can't appreciate how driving satisfaction is affected.
