After a 2 hour heated discussion with Kenn Cramer,
I decided to put the pictures up and let people have there say,

This is my opinion:

Accidents happen and going on the grass can sometimes not be avoided, but what do you do when u see someone cutting the corner EVERY lap ?

I belong to the host, NARAARR>Racetrack for G25/Porsche wheel users only,

The Location of this topic is at ASTON - AS1
We all know the down hill S section just before the last corner.

I believe That a race car driver should Keep his car on the track at all times.
The track I believe is the Tarmac section, and Ripple Stripping.
Ripple stripping also contains ripple support sections, (green at aston) these are attached to the ripple strip, but extend out to the grass.
Although ripple extensions are questionable to drive on (you can end up with no part of the car on the tarmac) for the sake of Gameplay I dismiss this.

If a user ends up with wheels on the grass, it should be by accident. in real life, a driver would be black flagged, if they went on the grass to cut a corner repeatedly.

The Ripple is there as a last resort, The extension is like Dire straights, and the Grass, is simply off limits, it is not part of the track.

Red = Kenn Cramer's line,
Green = Correct line
PICTURE:


Kenn believes 2 wheels on the grass anytime for how ever long u like is ok, while the other 2 wheels are riding on the ripple extension. (see pic above)
LMAO, He Actually asked me to take away the cones, cause they were disrupting him from getting onto the grass, Crazy talk if you ask me.

Im sorry, but ive never seen a car race, where drivers do this, throwing up grass and dirt everylap on the same corners just doesn't happen, thats why racetracks are made of hard stuff lol

So now because of drivers who lack honesty, integrity and the ability to keep there car on the track at all times, our track looks like Old Mcdonlds, farm.
(1 second penalty being built soon for touching grass and objects will be removed) Objects are placed there to protect the scoreboards from Cutters.

The sad solution , to stop cheaters like this ?
PICTURE:


Anyway, this is a forum, If u think Kenn is right, and we should all start fitting Knobbly tires to our cars to handle the offroad action, then have ur say.

If you think your car should be on the racetrack (the hard part lol) at all times feel free to say so too.

Im just tired of doing it the right way, only to have all my good work undone by people who just want to win, rather than feel a true driving/racing experience.

... Why make a deal out of this?


Just put cones, haybales, tires in the way, that way if you crash you wont bash up your car too badly like you did.

It's no big deal. I can go ahead and show you several of real race tracks that block using tires.

"Kenn believes 2 wheels on the grass anytime for how ever long u like is ok, while the other 2 wheels are riding on the ripple extension."

Change that to

"Kenn believes 2 wheels on the grass anytime for how ever long u like is ok, while the other 2 wheels are riding on the tarmac."

And I'm pretty sure he would be right. I don't like this sort of behaviour, though, so I would add the 'solution' if I were you!

IMO the car is jugded to be on the track if at least two of it's wheels are on the track. And I have never even thought that these "rumble strip extensions" were not counted as a track. There are plenty of oddities like this in LFS tracks'(partly because they are fictional, partly because the cars are too resistant to damage, partly because there are issues with physics and setups so that it's more benefical to touch the grass and ride kerbs than it should). But if these "rumble strip extensions" were NOT a part of the track, we would be all deliberately abusing the track side in every other exit of a corner.

But the answer to your question is really simple: Put some cones there if you want to force the racers not to use ome parts of the track. A solid object will do even better than cones / haybales.

Quote from Timdpr :

Snip

"Kenn believes 2 wheels on the grass anytime for how ever long u like is ok, while the other 2 wheels are riding on the curbs/rumblestrip."
Snip

I believe that is what he meant,

I always figured that the edge of the track was defined by the white lines, which does not include the curbing. That said, people are going to take the fastest line possible through chicanes unless there is something there to stop them.

No-one tends to hit the grass there because your tyres get dirty, this effects the handling on the last corner, so whoever does it is probably loosing the same amount of time if not more by doing it.

I do the red line frequently, after switching cars or practicing new cars. But never on purpose really. When you come along the outside really fast, you have to know by heart when to turn in for then downhill chicane. Upwards, no problem, but downhill you can't see the apex so you have to guess when going fast. I'm annoyed everytime a tire hits grass, because the saved time doesn't compensate for lost grip, if you ask me.

As you can see from the red and green racing line, it's hard and/or dangerous to change lines once you notice you're gonna miss the red one and hit grass, so you'll really just have to try going as straight as possible so you won't spin and be a hazard for the cars behind you. I don't doubt that some people exploit this and keep a higher speed, but personally I keep the speed low enough for the green line and sometimes end up on the red one anyway. I think the saved time then is little or nothing.

Quote from UncleBenny :

I always figured that the edge of the track was defined by the white lines, which does not include the curbing.

I thought that too but started wondering while watching F1 some time - there were quite some meters of tarmac outside the track (seeing the track as restricted by the two white lines) - and everybody was using it with the whole car to get a smoother line.. if I could only remember what track it was.. I agree on the "2 wheels on the track"-rule but now the question is: where is the edge?

however, would be great to have some clear rules concerning that.. are there any..?

CTRA rules say "Always two wheels within the white line". Correct? At least I think so.

edit: I can't find it on their site now. Maybe I read it somewhere else, but I'm positive I read it in someones rules.

Quote from Jens O. :

I thought that too but started wondering while watching F1 some time - there were quite some meters of tarmac outside the track (seeing the track as restricted by the two white lines) - and everybody was using it with the whole car to get a smoother line.. if I could only remember what track it was..

Austria?

He's going quite a lot further than the rumblestrip after T1.

Quote :

Green = Correct line

Is there a such thing as correct line in racing? I didnt know. But taking it to the limit is part of racing and if you are willing to risk it all by going a few inches over the line, then no warnings from me. And as Pearcy says, your tires will get dirty and kill you in last corner.

Quote :

The sad solution , to stop cheaters like this ?
PICTURE:
Attachment 77341

How can you call him a cheater by using a little bit of the grass? That is stupid imo. And dont you see the tires LFS dev's put there in first place, they are blocking for complete cutting.

And arent Name and Shaming not allowed on this forum?

Quote from zeugnimod :

Austria?

He's going quite a lot further than the rumblestrip after T1.

oh yes that may have been it. thanks, a very obvious example I think

and one more thought: if the rule really is to keep 2 wheels inside the white line, it would be logical to get your hotlap invalid as soon as you infridge the rule - but obviously you can indeed go offroad unless you touch the grass/dirt with more than 2 wheels.

concerning your possible solution: I've never been a fan of extra cones and stuff to avoid that (un)famous "cutting". it's not because I like to get my tyres dirty and gain advantage with cutting but because it can ruin your/the race if you miss the turn-in point accidently and spin (and perhaps cause a huge pileup). although I don't really see another real solution if someone wants to forbid that cutting

If the grass was modelled accurately it wouldn't be possible because the wheels would either bounce off the undulations, dig into the earth underneath or suffer from zero traction and induce a spin, causing a bit of a problem for the driver. So while it might currently be the fastest way in LFS, it should be discouraged as much as possible. Just like the crazy "what chicane" behaviour.

That said, I don't think every one of those extra obstacles is needed. Cut off the corner by all means, but the hay bales in the middle of the gravel, way off the side are probably pointless - that route won't help time or position.

Whatever you do don't use objects to block it off, people are used to turns like that and they expect to be able to cut it. I personally try to avoid it because I don't want dirt of my tyres for the next turns, but it's a hard turn and sometimes things can go wrong. If you put objects there just to stop 1 or 2 people cutting, then it will end up being a disadvantage for everyone else.

It's worth noting the person that hits the object first is not the one who loses time, it's the line of cars behind that get a bunch of bales and tyres spat infront of them that have trouble. Until the grass is changed, or the tracks are improved I don't think any server should use objects as a tempory fix, they cause mayhem everytime they are used, especially with lag and a dodgy collision detection system.

Haybails do NOT work, they simply cause more accidents.

So long as 2 wheels remain on the tarmac/rumble strip then that's not cutting.

At the end of the day, it's not RL, it's a simulation, and I'm sure even in RL the lap record would involve cutting chicanes as much as possible.

There's nothing 'wrong' with his line... seems like your problem with him goes muuuch deeper.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

So long as 2 wheels remain on the tarmac/rumble strip then that's not cutting.

True.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

At the end of the day, it's not RL, it's a simulation, and I'm sure even in RL the lap record would involve cutting chicanes as much as possible.

Would involve cutting, but to a certain extent. Because the cars and kerbs are not perfectly portrayed in LFS, you can get away with extensively cutting kerbs in LFS, without receiving any notable damage.

IRL, in faster car classes atleast, it will either damage your car or upset its balance, and shoot you back first into the desert.

So IRL, when chicanes are taken, 2 wheels are on the tarmac at all times, the other two are on the edge of the kerb, not much further.

Put in the rules that cutting will lead to DQ. Then after the race DQ those who cut the corner. They'll whine for a while but if they want to win they'll learn to drive on the track.

If it's cutting you are worried about, as above DQ those who cut - but use floppy markers/posts instead, these do not cause further accidents but its easy to see who hit it, and provide a good reference point when you reach the corner.

After extensive thinking, I think I now why the WR setups (especially on trakc with high kerbs) use spring stiffness that are around 11% lower that the optimum spring rate regarding the weight of the car... It's to allow stability over kerbs...

For instance, I tend to run on 92 and 89 at rear and front respectively, as it makes me pretty fast on tarmac, but taking a kerb can make me snap out or understeer.
Anyway, I don't like kerb hopping ^^

Quote from Zen321 :

Anyway, I don't like kerb hopping ^^

Who would, but in LFS you can - and need to hop even the most steepest ones in fern bay flat out to be competitive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5jxMiTrm9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiDmQgAhI0A

And also totally ignore the white lines (for gezmoor)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrCzEmUoVBw

Quote from zeugnimod :

Austria?

He's going quite a lot further than the rumblestrip after T1.

It's outside of the track actually, the problem here is that he cut it from the inside lane.

Quote from frokki :

And I have never even thought that these "rumble strip extensions" were not counted as a track. .

Then you think wrong. The track is defined by the white lines at the edge of the tarmac. As far as I know two wheels must be inside the area between the two white lines at all times, (certainly that is the case in F1), and if at any time this is not the case you are considered to be course cutting and this will lead to a penalty being imposed.

Obviously in this case the simple answer is to put a tyre wall perpendicular to the track exactly at the apex of the corner right up to the edge of the grass, (or whatever distance away from the edge that would mean you had to keep at least two wheels inside the white line).

Well in LFS, i think to put it pretty simply: 2 tyres off the track at almost any time is okay, 3 or 4 is fail. Simple as that, and I'm quite sure that applies to almost every corner on all tracks (this is HLVC).
There's been many, many arguments about this in the MoE race at Ky long, the chicane coming off the oval section. The rule is, that you must have at least 2 tyres on the track at all times. The kerbing is included as the track.

and what where you trying to prove with this post? like everyone else said, 2 tyres on grass is fine. Stop whining about people beating you and go play some more...