I am very concerned, since it's one of the most obvious ways to judge how realistic a racing sim is.

Take F1C for example, the lap times the top sim drivers do are amazingly close to those real life F1 drivers do. Now with possibilities to add a real-life circuit into LFS, I am really curious to find out how it goes.

I doubt it though, judging by the behaviou of FO8, in which you could take some fast corners flat-out, the bumpy feeling and the sound of tyre scratching aren't quite right methinks.

We don't know the answer, so please feel free to discuss!

I'm more curious that how we are going to get a real life track to LFS before we can even think about comparing the times.

When you win the lottery you can make a replica Blackwood (Devs permitting) and invite BMW to test the F1.06 there.

Then we'll know

I doubt we get a RL track in LFS soon, so that problem isn't really one. But even IF we had a RL track I think the times would be very close. They might be faster for the aliens because we actually have several advantages over the real racers, including the lack of death when crashing and no crazy forces acting on us when cornering.

But as you said, we don't know, so all things discussed here will be pure speculation.

Plus real life tracks have varying grip levels, and lots more detail, so it would never be perfect anyway. But also remember that F1C wasn't a proper simulation and the lap times were made accurate by fudging the grip/scale.

Quote from wE1l :

since it's one of the most obvious ways to judge how realistic a racing sim is.

most obvious, but in my opinion one of the worst. you could make a game where you fly over a racetrack and by adjusting cornering abilities and speed you set the lowest reachable time to time x by f1 driver y. doesn't mean it's to be realistic at all.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Plus real life tracks have varying grip levels, and lots more detail, so it would never be perfect anyway. But also remember that F1C wasn't a proper simulation and the lap times were made accurate by fudging the grip/scale.

Well also GTR lap times are only 3-5 secs faster than real life lap times (on a same season that the game has). FIA GT website has a good database of the previous seasons' races and qualifications. There are lots of things wrong in GTR but there must be something also right because the times are very close. I compared the times from the GTR-Rank page.

oh I remember the time when I used to play F1C. There were tracks where the top drivers drove a lot faster then in real life. I think A1 track was one of those where you could match the times of a real life Ferrari with cars like the Minardi.

Hi guys, I really don't want to make this thread dig into F1C, but just for the record F1C, which is a 3 years old sim, is still the most realistic F1 sim out there. For whom thinking it ain't a proper sim, I kinda feel sorry for you not being able to have the fun that thousands have. For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.

Back on topic, I am just afraid that BF1 runs too fast that it would set a ridiculous lap time on a rl track. Imagine a 1:30.xxx at Spa with a F1 car...

Sims (however accurate) will nearly always be faster than RL, several reasons:

1. Sim developers always take the gripiest tires, slipiest drag co-efficents, torqueiest torque curves that they have avaliable in the data they have.

2. Fear, in a sim you only have to press shift + R (or twidle your thumbs for 10 minutes in nK) in real life it hurts.

3. Extra grip - given because driving without G forces is like driving with your eyes closed.

4. Less bumps - even the LFS bumps are rather smooth for real life.

5. 1000s of laps - IRL you don't spend nearly as much time driving (also effects setups).

6. More openess than RL people share setups + replays.

7. Less randomness - IRL the car isn't always in a perfect shiny state real cars have bad days when they just seem hell bent to break down. Often sims go for the option of making everything perfect because they can't get the randomness of reality.

8. Stronger cars - IRL most gearboxes will not take flat shifting and excessive kerbing/wheel on the grass is got away with.

9. Everyone knows that 13 year old spotty geeky kids don't have anything better to do, so eventually end up the best. But they would never get into real racing since that would involve leaving the house, and would be too scrawny to turn a real wheel. On a semi-serious note way more people have the opportunity to take part in sim racing than rea life racing, so in theory there should be more faster drivers?

Quote from deggis :

Well also GTR lap times are only 3-5 secs faster than real life lap times (on a same season that the game has).

Oh, is that all? 3 seconds is an ETERNITY in auto racing. Especially at a level like GTR. I wouldn't say that coming within 3 seconds of real life timing is any sort of accomplishment.

Not that it really matters. So long as the playing field is level, and so long as the car feels right and reacts like you would expect it to, the time in which it can lap a track is almost insignificant.

Quote from wE1l :

Hi guys, I really don't want to make this thread dig into F1C, but just for the record F1C, which is a 3 years old sim, is still the most realistic F1 sim out there. For whom thinking it ain't a proper sim, I kinda feel sorry for you not being able to have the fun that thousands have. For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.

Back on topic, I am just afraid that BF1 runs too fast that it would set a ridiculous lap time on a rl track. Imagine a 1:30.xxx at Spa with a F1 car...

Yes I agree totally that F1C is the most realistic F1 sim out there at the moment. But it's also as realistic at simulating F1 (and all the car dynamics involved) as this lump of cheese *points to lump of cheese*

Accurate lap times DO NOT mean it's realistic, it just means the developers have made it so that accurate times are generated. A realistic sim will produce realistic times (with consideration that you'll always be able to go slightly faster in a sim ultimately), but it doesn't work the other way around.

Oh, and I played F1C, realised it was relatively arcade nonsense, and deleted. I think it went as a part exchange for some other game that enjoyed a lot more.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes I agree totally that F1C is the most realistic F1 sim out there at the moment. But it's also as realistic at simulating F1 (and all the car dynamics involved) as this lump of cheese *points to lump of cheese*

Accurate lap times DO NOT mean it's realistic, it just means the developers have made it so that accurate times are generated. A realistic sim will produce realistic times (with consideration that you'll always be able to go slightly faster in a sim ultimately), but it doesn't work the other way around.

Oh, and I played F1C, realised it was relatively arcade nonsense, and deleted. I think it went as a part exchange for some other game that enjoyed a lot more.

Good for you then. Glad we both find LFS more realistic. I agree that similar lap times do not necessarily mean a good sim, but to be a decent sim lap times can't be too far-fetched IMO. How I want a rl circuit for a comparison!

Track surfaces aren't identical to each other on real tracks. Some are rougher than others, some may offer more grip then others. In sims this would probably be simulated using a simple, numerical grip factor. This factor could easily be tweaked to match up the sim lap times to real lap times.

In short: Lap time comparison is pretty useless in terms of rating realism.

Overlaying speed, steering, slipangle traces etc. would be much better but I have never seen this done with any sim.

Quote from wE1l :

For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.

Actually no, he's right. You need to make sure you have all the facts before saying someone else's post is unintelligent Laptimes say nothing about the fundamental realism of a sim. If you think that getting around a track in the same amount of time means realism, then we differ on our opionion of what true realism is. Realism is realtime calculations, not table lookups. Also, gamer mag ratings are beyond useless, and not aimed at the niche that a true driving simulator is. Not trying to sound brash

Wasn't GP4 (slightly) more realisitic than F1C?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Actually no, he's right. You need to make sure you have all the facts before saying someone else's post is unintelligent Laptimes say nothing about the fundamental realism of a sim. If you think that getting around a track in the same amount of time means realism, then we differ on our opionion of what true realism is. Realism is realtime calculations, not table lookups. Also, gamer mag ratings are beyond useless, and not aimed at the niche that a true driving simulator is. Not trying to sound brash

It always helps to hear different opinions, for what I think laptimes have to do with realism, please check my last post in this thread. And since we are both S2 licensed, it may be safe to say we do not differ too much on what true realism is.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Oh, is that all? 3 seconds is an ETERNITY in auto racing. Especially at a level like GTR. I wouldn't say that coming within 3 seconds of real life timing is any sort of accomplishment.

Not that it really matters. So long as the playing field is level, and so long as the car feels right and reacts like you would expect it to, the time in which it can lap a track is almost insignificant.

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.

Quote from ajp71 :

Wasn't GP4 (slightly) more realisitic than F1C?

lol, it's like :fence: on this for years, but they are both pretty old sims these days, anyways, as long as everyone finds his true love...

Quote from Gabkicks :

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.

Yep 3-5 seconds is the difference between a front running GT car and a back of the grid GT3 car at some tracks.

Quote from Gabkicks :

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.

depends on the circuit I think, 3 seconds at bl1 is definitely disaster tho.

Quote :

1. Sim developers always take the gripiest tires, slipiest drag co-efficents, torqueiest torque curves that they have avaliable in the data they have.

2. Fear, in a sim you only have to press shift + R (or twidle your thumbs for 10 minutes in nK) in real life it hurts.

3. Extra grip - given because driving without G forces is like driving with your eyes closed.

4. Less bumps - even the LFS bumps are rather smooth for real life.

5. 1000s of laps - IRL you don't spend nearly as much time driving (also effects setups).

6. More openess than RL people share setups + replays.

7. Less randomness - IRL the car isn't always in a perfect shiny state real cars have bad days when they just seem hell bent to break down. Often sims go for the option of making everything perfect because they can't get the randomness of reality.

8. Stronger cars - IRL most gearboxes will not take flat shifting and excessive kerbing/wheel on the grass is got away with.

I dont agree with everything you have said:
2: Fear is not a problem for most racing drivers. When I raced TKM for instance the first time I hit the throttle every day I wondered how I ever had the bottle to drive this thing last time, by the second corner I had adjusted to the speed and was away... Happily inches away from the then highly dangerous Stadium Bend at Rye House without a second thought about that empty 1metre gravel trap, flimsy tyre wall, lack of catchment fence, and the car park beyond whether it was wet or dry.

3: The effect of G-forces on a novice driver can result in latent use of the throttle. Any driver who doesn't overcome this confidence issue finishes at the back.

5: The majority of my budget even in the lower ranks of motor sport has been spent on development, testing and practice and not race entry fees.

6: At the lower ranks people share, at the higher ranks hundreds of people armed with super computers setup 1 car.

I agree with your other points though.

Looking at some times from British GT Castle Coombe 2005:

GT2 (pole) - 1.06
GT3 (slowest*) - 1.10

*That weren't sticking out like a sore thumb way off pace, probably after problems.

What's the problem with the FO8 being able to take fast corners flat out? it's a downforce car.

I don't see your point with the vibration and tire sound either?