i have to write an essay, 1 page long, and fully structured. My chosen topic was to write about how a driver learning the car in a simulator (GT5P, and LFS) could dramatically impact the driving behavior of the driver. i want to say that driving a sim till improve your driving.
i remember a quote from Kazunori saying "it's the closest to the real thing you will ever get." and so, i need good point and possible objections to this topic, and any clarification, just ask.

Depends on personality tho, me as very rough driver in LFS ... In real life i drive still the same and i obey the law. But there are few punks who go that way.

Quote from hazaky :

Depends on personality tho, me as very rough driver in LFS ... In real life i drive still the same and i obey the law. But there are few punks who go that way.

He's not talking about driving fast, he's talking about technical ability. That being said, your post is a perfect example; false sense of talent. People may push too far in real life thinking they're god in a game...

Additionally, games remove the G-Forces - there's no seat of the pants feeling and there is no replacement for that.

Also, games are far too sterile. They've got environments that are just too controlled, too 'clean.'

I think that i understood it right, but maybe i didnt. But i got the point and actually i dont know. I dont know, maybe my english is not "that" good so i could answer that right

i was never real good at essays, i cant help ya. wish i could tho mate

In LFS if you crash. It would make you go, Well it don't matter! Ill just pit. In RL when you crash you have a 50% chance of living or dying depending on the acident.

That might help ya

Good luck on the essay!

Quote from master_lfs.5101 :

In RL when you crash you have a 50% chance of living or dying depending on the acident.

So if i back into another car at 5kph, i have a 50/50 chance of dying?

WHOA

Quote from Klutch :

So if i back into another car at 5kph, i have a 50/50 chance of dying?

WHOA

lol yea the drive might hop out and hit you depending on how big he is

If I was a teacher and someone wrote an essay about how computer games teach you and make you a better driver, I would fail it immediately.

Quote from chavm481 :

i have to write an essay, 1 page long, and fully structured. My chosen topic was to write about how a driver learning the car in a simulator (GT5P, and LFS) could dramatically impact the driving behavior of the driver. i want to say that driving a sim till improve your driving.
i remember a quote from Kazunori saying "it's the closest to the real thing you will ever get." and so, i need good point and possible objections to this topic, and any clarification, just ask.

Well apparently rotational awareness is a very important skill in high level driving even leading some F1 teams to only hire drivers who have experienced driving from a very young age. The lower spine apparently is a crucial part of the bodies feedback system. In a sim this is not used whatsoever. Though IMO there are exceptions to the rule

So with that in mind, the potential of a simulator can be limited. Just look at Dale Jnr in the Daytona. The amount of hours he sims for you would expect him to have a special advantage... he doesn't.

I personally believe sims main advantages are learning systems, being able to vocalise and communicate set up changes, and improving race craft

Can sims make a bad driver good? Yes! Can they make a good driver great? Proabably not but it can certainly improve specific areas of ones driving.

Quote from mrodgers :

If I was a teacher and someone wrote an essay about how computer games teach you and make you a better driver, I would fail it immediately.

Even if it was backed up with solid evidence? I think it would be very unfair for a teacher to completely dismiss a paper out of hand purely due to the topic.

LFS taught me how to use a clutch properly

Quote from piggy501 :

LFS taught me how to use a clutch properly

I don't see how, the clutch in LFS is nothing like the clutch in real life as there is no feel in it. You might as well just replace it with a button on the ground because that is what it feels like to use.

LFS has given me plenty of bad habits. Some are proving harder to break than others.

, lfs got me the "basics" of driving correctly and not oversteering..

Let me edit that. Hmm. If you look it says depending on the crash.

Quote from Forbin :

Even if it was backed up with solid evidence? I think it would be very unfair for a teacher to completely dismiss a paper out of hand purely due to the topic.

Ok, I'll clarify a little...

If I was a teacher and someone wrote an essay about how computer games teach you and make you a better driver, I would fail it immediately knowing what I know after driving for the past 21 years and sim racing on the computer for the past 14 years.

There's my solid evidence, I've been driving a car (RWD, FWD, 4WD, and AWD on dry pavement, wet pavement, snow, ice, at slow speeds, and at high speeds experience.) Nothing learned from sim racing on the computer has "dramatically impacted" my driving or understanding of driving in the real world.

it doesn't majorly teach you how, it simply helps you get started on what to expect, its the closest thing to a real car...

Mind you, sim racing did really help me with my driving lessons.
When I took my first lesson, I could drive off easily, shift gears without looking at the gear stick, and use three pedals properly. It does help. That's about it though!

^thats what happened here, you simply get the feeling, not the expirience.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

I don't see how, the clutch in LFS is nothing like the clutch in real life as there is no feel in it. You might as well just replace it with a button on the ground because that is what it feels like to use.

LFS has given me plenty of bad habits. Some are proving harder to break than others.

I think he meant the principle and the like, rather than an out and out simulation of the clutch, if you know what I meant.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I think he meant the principle and the like, rather than an out and out simulation of the clutch, if you know what I meant.

You can learn that same principle by sitting in a car for about 30 seconds. I learnt the purpose of the clutch by sitting in a car as a young'en and pretending to drive it. It wasn't even running but it is the same level of learning you'd get from playing LFS.

A friend of mine who was doing his driving lessons told me he was having trouble getting it in gear. He'd go into 3rd instead of 1st or 2nd instead of 4th etc. I let him loose on LFS and explained how he should be gear changing with the flimsy G25 gear lever - by following the shape of the gate with smooth movements without forcing it across and essentially guessing and hoping it's in the right gear. A couple of days later after his next driving lesson he told me how the explanation and experience on "that game" helped him a lot, he no longer had trouble changing gear.

Also from personal experience, when I took my car off road a while back I experienced some severe under steer. My experience with LFS kicked in and helped me make a choice on how I should proceed to handle the situation - without that experience I would have been left to make a quick unexperienced decesion and hoped for the best.

Does it make you a better driver? I would have to say no.
Does it teach you techniques, concepts and driving theory? I would say yes to an extent.
Does it effect driver/driving behaviour? Define "behaviour". Are you talking drivers attitude towards driving or drivers reaction to certain events? I would say both are entirely dependant on the individual. Some may think they are god and do silly things while others may not. Some may utilise common strategies from their sim experience into real life situations while others may not.
A simulator can help your understanding but that is no substitute for real experience, and even then 20-30-40 years experience doesn't mean you are a good driver. In my opinion some drivers I have been with whose had years and years of experience are completely crap drivers - tunnel vision, lack of observation, tail gating, inconsiderate manuvering etc. Although, these people I consider crap drivers have a clean driving history and they consider themselves good drivers....

All this is dependant on the individual concerned. For some people a simulator can help, for others it can't. However regardless of that, experience has to come from somewhere.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

I don't see how, the clutch in LFS is nothing like the clutch in real life as there is no feel in it. You might as well just replace it with a button on the ground because that is what it feels like to use.

LFS has given me plenty of bad habits. Some are proving harder to break than others.

No no, that's true, but I mean the general pattern of clutch work.

Quote from hrtburnout :

Mind you, sim racing did really help me with my driving lessons.
When I took my first lesson, I could drive off easily, shift gears without looking at the gear stick, and use three pedals properly. It does help. That's about it though!

Pretty much same deal for me, having muscle memory already in place meant that I could focus on observing surroundings and learning to drive in traffic. I had never driven actual car before driving lessons and after 15mins I was already driving in traffic, my sister spent two days with instructor on that carpark before getting hang of it.

Driving simulators don't make you better or worse drivers, that's entirely up to person and his attitude. However, they can be used as a tool to smooth out the learning curve and experience how car behaves in different situations.

Muscle memory?!