just got back from trying the new patch out...and I know I am going to get flamed for this...but it seems worse in some respects...it seems that they tweeked the FF instructions to the steering wheels and now I get a lot less info from my FF logitech momo than I used to...now it just feels flat in it's effects compared to the last patch/version, in addition, it is way to easy to drive the cars at the limit now with very, very progressive breakaway, almost to a rediculous point, cars are not twitchy at the limit you aren't walking on "egg shells" like in real life at the limit...it's too bad I almost like the last patch better and how it feels, I do like the new fonts used though and the new F1 car...but other than that, the game feels less like a sim and more like an arcade game now...

*let the flaming begin..lol*

I still get that annoying "making a left hander around a corner and the car decides to lose total grip and spin to the left instead" Where I expect some cars to push, all wheels lose traction and I spin. Shouldn't I at least start to push first?

Quote from Shotglass :

have you ever driven one of the old porsches without esp and with rather simplistic dampers ? from what ive heard theyre widowmakers

That's because older 911's used semi trailing arms in the rear. Since the bushings aren't perfectly rigid, you get additional toe out if you brake or lift off in a vehicle with semi trailing arms. So if the rear gets loose and the driver lifts off, the outside rear wheel will actually steer into the drift and make the car go even more sideways. Newer 911's and the FZ shouldn't have these problems.

also, it feels as if I have some driving aids on....but I don't see any options to turn them off...I noticed the throttle help and steering help have been removed from the options menu, only brake help is there as an option? does that mean they are on be default in this new patch? if so, how can I turn them off...the cars are way to easy to drive now...and grip like crazy...

I always hated the LFS RWD physics.

Now they feel damn good.

Corner speeds seem about the same, but the transient behavior is much improved. They dont "grip like crazy" nor does it "feel like an arcade game". Remember that increased difficulty != realism. They only feel easier because the old behavior was so random. So. uh. drive faster or something?

Quote from RIP2004 :

I also noticed, that it is very hard to get your car drifting by suddenly take away throttle. You can go fast in a corner and than full throttle, no throttle, full throttle. The car won't begin to drift because of the transfer of weight.

Yup- after a lot of testing today, that is right.. At first I thought everything was great - (it is better).. but after some more testing I found the same problems as before.

If the back end gets loose in a RWD car, in LFS, the way to stop from spinning is instantly letting off the gas. Also, in a corner in a normally set up RWD car in LFS, when you let off the throttle, there is no change in YAW (pic below). Some FWD cars can be set up to have this behavior, but the RWD cars don't act right still.. You should be able to transfer weight to the front and loose traction in the rear while going around a corner in most all RWD card.. sadly, this doesn't happen yet in LFS on a consistent basis. I think LFS is much better now though, and closer to being perfect.. and much more fun to drive.

It is funny to me to hear people here bash rFactor and call it arcade and whatnot, when some aspects of rF are actually more accurate than LFS.. rF's implementation of the physics engine is not as good, and the FF you get is no where near is good.. but in some ways it is still more accurate. Strange.


Also RIP2004, maybe you aren't talkign about incorrect tire physics in LFS, but incorrect vehicle dynamics when it comes to weight transfer and inertia. Maybe if those were calcualted correctly, the tires would behave pefectly fine.. Hard to say.


A yaw motion is a side to side movement of the nose of the aircraft as shown in the animation.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/yaw.html





edit-

LIFT THROTTLE OVERSTEER

A handling characteristic that causes the rear tires to lose some of their cornering grip when the throttle is released during hard cornering.
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-199.htm




edit-
Lift-off oversteer (also known as trailing-throttle oversteer, lift-throttle oversteer, or drop-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in an automobile that occurs when the vehicle's weight shifts from the rear to the front too quickly due to throttle release while cornering. Various suspension enhancements can be done to limit a vehicle's tendency to oversteer in this situation, including using a Weissach axle or a multi-link suspension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailing-throttle_oversteer

I have not played the new patch enough yet to have a really solid opinion, but I think one of the big things here is car setups. You can change the feel of a car immensely just by making half a degree change in camber at each end. Some of the default setups still seem pretty weird to me, not sure what anyone else thinks... Also, we don't really know about the road tires. Are road normal like regular tires or are they fairly sporty? Are Supers fairly sporty, or are they almost track day tires? I bet the XRT on street legal track day tires would feel a bit underpowered on the track with all that grip... There are so many variables at work.

Definitely feels better than it did before, a lot more controllable. Not 100% yet there perhaps, but it feels pretty good to me! I think it's being made harder for Scawen by the fact he's trying to do things as realistically possible. Now instead of maybe 3 or 4 variables in tire construction, he's working with say 7 or 8. I'm completely making this stuff up, but I hope you get my general point. Just that it may be harder to get things feeling right with a more complex model than with a simpler, more easily 'tuneable' model (ie GPL). I think to get it feeling right with such a complicated model, you need a huge amount of knowledge that the devs are still acquiring. Or maybe it's already pretty fantastic, and I just need to spend a bit more time working on setups and getting used to it all

One point about lift off oversteer...again I think it depends a lot on the settings. But I've found with default settings if I turn in hard and lift off I will usually get the back out in pretty much any car. If I'm in a steady state in a corner and lift, it will tighten the line. Maybe not get the back out, but again, I think it depends quite a bit on the setups.

I agree, car setup seems to be a factor influencing a lot of this discussion.

I also agree with the point that a fast spinning wheel doesn't lose traction enough. Sort of like the slip / traction curve levels out at some early point, when it should still be going sharply down.

The rwds exhibit far more normal cornering behaviour when set with a fairly neutral setup to me now - throttle on understeer, have to get a bit vigorous to shake the rear end loose. Previously I was unable to make the xrt drive at all like my rx7, my sets now feel pretty close. Tyres search for traction when slipping, rather than just floating around. All very good. Still doesn't feel like enough of a bite when correcting a slide, but part of this 'may' be to do with the lack of real forces being applied to my body

Quote from Michael Denham :

One point about lift off oversteer...again I think it depends a lot on the settings. But I've found with default settings if I turn in hard and lift off I will usually get the back out in pretty much any car. If I'm in a steady state in a corner and lift, it will tighten the line. Maybe not get the back out, but again, I think it depends quite a bit on the setups.

Yeah- you are correct about that.. I mean.. nothing is set in stone, not even handling on real cars.


Also, to defend the lack of "lift off oversteer" in LFS in some cars and some setups.. and interesting note:

Quote :

For most of us, lift throttle oversteer isn't a problem. First of all, it won't bite you unless you're driving at or near the limit. At reasonable street speeds, all cars have sufficent traction reserve to make the corner . Second, not all cars suffer from a lift throttle oversteer. Most rear wheel drive cars do not, particularly with an open or limited slip differential. Lifting during a corner merely helps the car tuck in tighter, though it does cost you time. Cars that suffer from lift throttle oversteer tend to have a very loose handling, and are often mid or rear engined. Famous examples of cars with significant lift throttle problems are the Porsche 911 and the second generation Toyota MR-2.

The first part is funny too--
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1258083
But maybe that guy doesn't know what he is talking about? LOL..



Anyway- All in all this patch is great.. I feel like I am driving a car, and I have better control of it, especially in the GTR cars.. You can push them much harder, just like you would think you would be able to, and you can feel the car take a nice solid set in a turn. MUCH more balanced. I'll keep testing before I make any final conclusions, all I know is that before, the "physics problems" made me not want to play LFS very much and frustrated me.. now I have an absolute blast, and can really feel the car underneath me- it doesn't feel "arcade-ish" at all either.. it feels very authentic most of the time..

I think another problem is that we are all 'testing' the new patch for 'problems' or 'issues' instead of just getting out there and driving and having fun! I know I am, and it really bugs me that I do it. I just want to drive and enjoy the cars.

now I feel less connected or there in the car if that makes any sense..the cornering speed seem much higher now since they are much easier to drive and they do have more grip I honestly believe...I don't think the old behavior was random it was just that they gave the street tires very little grip under acceleration...but the physics at the limit were more realistic as anyone who has been to a road coarse or autoX will tell you how fragile a car is at the limit and oftentimes twitchy...it makes you almost hold your breath sometimes! in this patch, I feel nothing of the sort...no feeling of walking on "eggshells"

higher cornering speed? I was comfortably lapping blgp in the 1:24's in xrt before, stuggled to get under 1:26 during brief testing last night... felt like I was down a few kph each corner.

BIg improvement really, the double apex last corner in KY GP, anyone try it?
there is where you notice the tyres doing what they should- that said... KY oval is still flat and 0 degree wings for the OW cars...the drafting is much better- but it is harder to cacth it, as the effect seems less so.

Quote :

Ever tried a start with these cars in rFactor?

Let's not compare RF to LFS please... RF is NOT a simulator in any kind of way.

that doesnt sound biased at all

Quote from Yiots :

Let's not compare RF to LFS please... RF is NOT a simulator in any kind of way.

Too obvious troll comment to be taken seriously.

Some interesting points by RIP2004...

I just want to add my 2cents saying that I am also quite frustrated for not being able to start faster with an analog clutch, without making spining the wheels, compared to flooring the pedal to the metal and making spin the wheels... I dunno if I'm doing wrong or anyhting, but I never couldn't start faster "the real way"...

Anyway, overall an excellent patch

Quote from Yiots :

Let's not compare RF to LFS please... RF is NOT a simulator in any kind of way.

Have to agree with you.

You guys should quit bashing rF, it is a sim... it may not have quite as "fine" of a feel as LFS, but it does have it's high points. You need to spend a lot of time tweaking that the same as LFS.. They both have their place in the sim racing world.

There are parts of LFS that put rF to shame, but there are also parts of rF that put LFS to shame.. it is all subjective.

Quote from RIP2004 :

The FWD car on street tyres (GTI) accelerates best when pushing the petal to the metal. With hard spinning wheels it still manages a 7.13 and ace in training. You don't need any feeling whereas IRL you have to be careful with the throttle in a FWD car, if you wanna go off fast.

Actually careful acceleration produces best results (according to my testing) but the difference I think is too small, 0.02s between full throttle acceleration and a proper one on the 100m acceleration test. See attachments.

Also try the LX6 acceleration in like a 50 meter dash autocross layout. Full throttle is much slower. But yes, like you said Krane, it is very minimal, and it doesn't make a difference really if you try and start optimally, or full throttle.

Kind of silly to teach people through the training to do full throttle starts if you ask me :zombie:

I just find it hard to believe that people call the tyres such a big improvement! It does seem that the slicks have improved 'more'... But then thats a risky statement as except one they all have considerable downforce. A bit more long. grip makes it harder to spin the tyres, and once at speed you have the magic downforce hand pushing them on the tarmac..

Here is a collection of replays where, most of the time, I don't countersteer.. There is just SOOO little required, both on and off throttle to make the car oversteer. And even when you don't truly 'spin out' the car still wants to turn so eagerly.

I don't run 'oversteery' sets, on a whole my front wheelrates are a bit stiffer than the weight thats on that side of the car and the front rollbar is considerably stiffer than the rear. Diff locking is non insane.

Out of the box, LFS still is wrong. Fixing 'normal' front tyres helps.. but we're masking a real problem. I don't even know if the tyres are the real cause, perhaps yaw forces are 4 times too high or inertia calculations are wrong.. I have no clue. But its too obviously not realistic imo.

I don't know if anyone ever really anticipated we'd be able to run perfectly normal setups and have it behave as expected... but imho, being able to run a slightly less than normal setup, and have it actually behave a lot closer to 'normal' (as opposed to before, where 'normal' behaviour just didn't happen) is a huge improvement.

Niels, but wouldn't you say that P/Q physics were a lot worse? Just go try that version if you can, right now, because overall it was worse in the old version.

As of now, SOME things have been improved, but there is something about the lateral grip that I cannot comprehend either. Longitudinal grip is great, maybe could use a bit of fine tuning, but overall good. It is just that the longitudinal grip is so powerful that the lateral grip is hardly affected at times. Then once it IS affected, the strong longitudinal grip is lost completely until you "flick/countersteer" the wheel forwards to recover. I also think recovery is ok, but the loss of grip is uninformative with tests like you showed in your replays.

Low speed grip is just the problem in my opinion. Your replays are demonstrating the low speed grip, and that is the main issue here. High speed lateral grip seems ok to me, you undergo some heavy loads, and it is forceful on the car. I've taken some cars at 100 mph in corners very fast, and at the limit, the strength and loads on the tires in huge... feels just like we have now at high speeds for the road cars. But like I said, low-speed grip is still a case here... only thing that bugs me to be honest (because I autocross, and a slalom is a joke atm)

Yes there is an improvement over the previous version. However, over the years LFS has gone from 'some really huge problems' to 'some pretty huge problems'...

I don't know and I'm annoyed Scawen isn't joining discussions.. But all seems to indicate that the actual tyre MODEL hasn't really changed! Only the parameters that feed it have gotten a bit better. In many ways exactly the same things happen as before, only now they happen a little bit less 'easy' but that is only under certain circumstances. Straight line stuff improved, but as soon as there are lateral forces (and no downforce to mask the problem) its the same old issue.

I don't think you can say its 'high speed' or 'low speed'. This has often been mentioned in sims, and its true that most have different low speed physics.. but that is near 0 speed. Above 10km/h most sims will use their pacejkas or whatever model they run. Problems might be more apparant at certain speeds. At low speeds the car can change direction a bit faster, perhaps highlighting some issues with that. At high speed the car carries a lot of momentum which might cause different symptoms to show.

The thing is that it seems that tweaking a 'not optimal' tyre physics model isn't the sollution. Sadly I don't know how you *can* model tyres properly so I'm not of much help.

Scawen's 'avoiding of physics forum threads' doesn't help. How has he debugged LFS physics? How much situations has he put in the sim to calculate later by hand to see if weight transfer etc is 'close'? We all think its the tyres, and that is quite likely, but perhaps thats not the only thing..

Since I can have absolutely 0 input on making LFS 'better' (up to a point) I do get annoyed at its very slow physics progress. LFS is an awesome achievement in many ways but there are just a few too big things too wrong.