Does that picture say 'LFS Forum' or 'S14 DRIFT'?
Does that picture say 'LFS Forum' or 'S14 DRIFT'?
like he wanted to say the disussion is pointless because the lfs tires are preheated. There were several discussions about that, which pointed out that the tires maybe heat to much, but maybe they are more modeled like semi slick racing tires + u wouldn't go for such low tires pressures irl, because the tires would come off the rim.
Maybe you can look at the fact that you need softer tires in winter because if it gets too cold the tires for the summer are just to hard (so they _have_ much less grip if they get too cold like they do in lfs). Then there is the fact that the feel of speed just isn't the same. If a tire in real life would hit 150°C i would bet it has lost much of his grip.
You can also see that a tire loose much of his grip if it is overheated in formula 1 nowadays. For one lap the soft tires work better, but in longruns they suck because they heat to much, loose to much grip, wear to fast, like too soft tires in lfs would do.
well look im not saying youre wrong since the tyre model does feel a bit off
however if you eg do what kamkor did in that video ie drifting through 5 or 6 corners at relatively low angles your tyres will be fine in lfs as well unless the model has changed considerably since the last time i spent hours drifting in lfs
judging from videos that ive seen one and a half or two laps of drifting in real life will cause tyres to disintegrate which is about the timeframe when road normals get above 100° and become soapy in lfs from what i remember
so the problem could be anywhere from a simple 'thread failure isnt modeled yet' (arguably this forum has modeled it successfully for years) and thus the tyres get hotter than they ever could in real life to a much more complex issue with how surface temperature and rubber core temperature interact
in other words without real life data to compare which as we all know is practically impossible to come by unless you gather it yourself (which in turn is prohobitively expensive) no one will ever be able to tell where the model fails to mimick reality and therefore any band aid that you seem to be hoping for will be just as wrong as the current model
Totally agree with that.
Just a slight difference:
to lose much of the grip when tires are hot, yes.
feeling like driving on ice, what... in... ù^$ù*.... the world...
Guys, seriously, get a drive in real life then compare to LFS? No need for graphs.. And before the fanboys or shadow jump in, this is nothing personal.
Just seeing some guys saying "give us proof", "do a comparison with real life cars so we can see", "where you have gotten your info from? was it an article or video? can you give us something to compare this to?" makes me sad about that community. Can't stand this. And by the way the answer might be "life". Yes, compare it to life. Isn't that proof big enough for you guys?
So far you're interested in one of the best racing sim and you don't know a thing about simple car physics? Not telling I'm an engineer but everyone with some basics knowledge would spot the laughing bit.
For the optimistic part, I'd just say that this online racing sim is great, and has managed to get it early compared to other games. Now the others has passed by and it's just a shame that those physics are "wasted" like it has been for quite some time now. In my opinion.
I bet nobody of us has the experience of how much grip a tire at 150°C delivers, because it's impossible to reach irl without a puncture, so nobody can say if it's realistic or not fullstop. Why can't you accept that ? 
OK, good to know. I just assumed that nobody would be stupid enough to go out and burn up perfectly good, new, race tires for drifting. What a waste. A good set of used up R888's maybe, but it would seemingly be better to just grab any old discount tire that's harder than a rock. But, obviously I know nothing about the fine display that drifting is.
I would bet that they heat cycle the R888 before they use them though. If you burn the snot out of a tire, it will be nasty hard and lose a lot of grip.
The fact remains that tires get more slippery when over heated than they are when at the optimal temperature. LFS may have the curve wrong, I said that before, but it isn't as bad as you are wanting to make it out to be, I think. Plus, if you are running your tires in the red, you ARE DOING IT WRONG in the first place.
Plus, I think you are experiencing some of the other grip bugs that exist in that once you lose grip, it is overly difficult to get it back again in some situations.
Im affraid I cant. Nobody can say if it is realistic or not you are right. But anyone could notice it isnt.
Yes it does.`
...so anyway, i agree with the OP whole heartedly. (btw where the hell is tristian with his expert advice? 
) ive said it before and i go by this theory: when you drive in lfs, you're not driving like you would irl. in lfs you can push so much harder, take corners so much faster.. putting load on certian wheels that you wouldnt achieve irl, so therefore the tyres in lfs just heat up too fast. thats just imo, but it seems to be that way.
its that and also lfs has a lack of mechanical grip or we are trying to go too fast and setting the cars up accordingly, then the cars slide around and we get too much tyre temp too fast.
but yeah, imo the tyre life is far too rapidly sped up.
btw PPdriver, red tyres arent bald afaik, they are just going soft and mushy and losing the tread on top, once the tyres start to lose tread (you can actually see them thin up in F9) thats when they go bald. i remember i did an xfg lap at ky2r with bald tyres and got the wr by heaps cos bald tyres are heaps faster in a straight line, and funnily enough seemed to have more grip. not many ppl liked that though.
) ive said it before and i go by this theory: when you drive in lfs, you're not driving like you would irl. in lfs you can push so much harder, take corners so much faster.. putting load on certian wheels that you wouldnt achieve irl, so therefore the tyres in lfs just heat up too fast. thats just imo, but it seems to be that way.its that and also lfs has a lack of mechanical grip or we are trying to go too fast and setting the cars up accordingly, then the cars slide around and we get too much tyre temp too fast.
but yeah, imo the tyre life is far too rapidly sped up.
btw PPdriver, red tyres arent bald afaik, they are just going soft and mushy and losing the tread on top, once the tyres start to lose tread (you can actually see them thin up in F9) thats when they go bald. i remember i did an xfg lap at ky2r with bald tyres and got the wr by heaps cos bald tyres are heaps faster in a straight line, and funnily enough seemed to have more grip. not many ppl liked that though.
Here's a thought to ponder:
If cold tires have less grip than hot ones, why is the very first lap on a qualifying run so frequently the fastest lap those tires will ever do, even in a series where tire warmers are not used? All they do is crank up the tire pressure and off they go immediately with the very fastest possible, albeit ambient temperature, cold tires.
150C is absolutely possible, btw.. Nascar sees core temperatures in excess of that regularly. Surface temps can run a lot hotter in some situations. I was told of an Indycar tire test where a fellow saw 370C momentarily on infrared during an extreme braking test (high slip ratio, but not locked). Quite a bit of smoke though probably
If cold tires have less grip than hot ones, why is the very first lap on a qualifying run so frequently the fastest lap those tires will ever do, even in a series where tire warmers are not used? All they do is crank up the tire pressure and off they go immediately with the very fastest possible, albeit ambient temperature, cold tires.
150C is absolutely possible, btw.. Nascar sees core temperatures in excess of that regularly. Surface temps can run a lot hotter in some situations. I was told of an Indycar tire test where a fellow saw 370C momentarily on infrared during an extreme braking test (high slip ratio, but not locked). Quite a bit of smoke though probably
In which racing series? I personally can't recall a fastest first lap unless the driver messed up all the other laps after that.
Other than that, I agree to the sentiment that while LfS tyre physics are far from being complete, it's firstly really, really, really hard to get it right, and secondly, LfS still has the best tyre model of all sims out there (including iRacing). That last statement is admittedly highly subjective, and others may disagree
Have you tried driving in RL with 150C rear tyres, and a 360bhp engine? Guess not..
I think that tires in LFS shouldn't warm so fast, also it would be good to make tire wearing a little bit more noticeable.
In the other hand playing in others sims i notice that car usually have that soap tires after few laps (if soft tires are chosen) so cant say it different than in LFS.
Ofcourse i find it weird that new tires are wasted after a few laps it should last longer even if its soft.
Also when racing on Aston grand prix in multiplayer after 4 lap my tires where noticebly soapy, the car where unresponsive and braking was terrible but only when i almost took the whole lead pack in acident i notice that one of my tire blow up somewhere during race and i even didnt notice it, I think in real life it would be more noticeble.
On replay it appear that I drive with 3 tires for onle lap without even noticing it.
In any case 4 lap even if my drive style whas crappy (and it was) but still tyres should last longer.
Anyway I wonder how much things would be fixed in update, I mean the devs spend some time on it i am sure there will be some major improvment in physics and watching history devs tryed to make LFS more realistic all the time and actually listen to improvment sugested by users and since its not a new sugestion so.
In the other hand playing in others sims i notice that car usually have that soap tires after few laps (if soft tires are chosen) so cant say it different than in LFS.
Ofcourse i find it weird that new tires are wasted after a few laps it should last longer even if its soft.
Also when racing on Aston grand prix in multiplayer after 4 lap my tires where noticebly soapy, the car where unresponsive and braking was terrible but only when i almost took the whole lead pack in acident i notice that one of my tire blow up somewhere during race and i even didnt notice it, I think in real life it would be more noticeble.
On replay it appear that I drive with 3 tires for onle lap without even noticing it.
In any case 4 lap even if my drive style whas crappy (and it was) but still tyres should last longer.
Anyway I wonder how much things would be fixed in update, I mean the devs spend some time on it i am sure there will be some major improvment in physics and watching history devs tryed to make LFS more realistic all the time and actually listen to improvment sugested by users and since its not a new sugestion so.
+1
Difficult to get a proper sense of speed with one regular monitor and no g-forces. It is only when you watch g-forces(F9) that you can see how painfully brutally you drive.
Two consequences for that: car seems to slip at low speed, and tyres and clutch seems to wear to easily.
What I'm saying here is actually even more apparent in LFS with a low powered car. XRG stalls immediately when trying to do a burnout on second gear with cold/optimum temp tires, heat them up to 130-140c and it turns in to a ice skating fest. The heated tire/lost grip effect is overly exaggerated.
You can basically drift the XRG like a 300HP car (Yes, I have driven one) after you heat the tires up to soap levels.
Oh, and the thread title does have a meaning to it.
EDIT:
Regarding Androids post below, thanks for pasting those links. Since the tyre temp vs. grip graphs are outdated from 2006, it would be interesting to see how much have the graphs changed after the Patch Y (FBM). Heated tire physics did notably change back then, and I'm afraid to worse than before.
Indycars were on my mind since I'm going to the race again this year
This link below is just a quick example of some of the lap times. They do a 4 lap qualifier there and fairly often the first lap is the quickest. They do also run an outlap and a warmup lap prior to deciding whether to go for it or wave off the attempt, so there's a fact that could be used against me
http://www.autoracing1.com/article.asp?id=360
I think you'll find the same thing in Nascar and other series where they only run a couple of laps to qualify, but would have to double check that to be sure. A friend of mine works as a simulation/dynamics guy for Nascar and insists that tire pressure has a whole lot more to do with grip than the core temperature does. They need to be careful not to get too hot, but they aren't shooting for a particular operating temperature necessarily that produces the best grip. Pressure yes, temperature no...
Fair enough. I'll leave that one alone
I rather think it's due to the nature of both indy and nascars driving mostly in high speed ovals, where sticky tyres slow you down, as you don't need their mechanical grip to get through the corners.
They don't grip enough when cold, they lose too much grip when overheated.
They grip too much when worn right down to the canvas within 1 lockup of a puncture.
These are the problems with the LFS tyre model, and they have been mentioned a gazillion times.
They grip too much when worn right down to the canvas within 1 lockup of a puncture.
These are the problems with the LFS tyre model, and they have been mentioned a gazillion times.
I'm sorry, but what context are you referring to this video in? As I've seen exactly the same done in LFS videos too. So are you meaning to say LFS is perfect?
All videos are very subjective as you don't know how hard the driver is working, and how skilled they are. Graphs and numbers are the only way to really sort this issue out.
What I meant was, I wanted to give example we are not e-experts and we speak from experience and from opinions of drivers who also have more real life experience and cars that get tires very hot in few runs.
I drove in that vid exactly the same way I drove that track in XRG e30 325 set in lfs. It is absolutely spot on. And that's the point. Make it more right to get real drivers do it as well. There are some downsides though, it is a bit too easy to get the slide going in lfs (and I don't really mean that its not snappy enough). And maybe there is bit too little grip. Or maybe not. It is really close.
In real life no matter how hard i burned the tires, I couldn't get them to drift like hot tires in XRG. If I could I wouldn't be getting money slowly for a more powerfull car to drift.
I don't know if LFS can teach real racing skills, but it can teach drifting skills. Normally I wouldn't be able to jump into rwd car and start sliding it as if I've done it before. Same story happend with Ally, who bought his first car couple months ago (s14a). See his qual run here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... &feature=channel_page
You can view on that channel our tsuiso battle on that event as well. Last run of that battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... &feature=channel_page
And the best part is, I even turn the wheel in real life like i do G25 when drifting. The reactions are very similar and natural vice versa. I can't do it naturally with rfactor, or iracing soltice (very very snappy car).
2008 Polish drift champion bought g25 and played some lfs, but after few drifting attempts he was suprised why it was sudennly so hard to catch the drift. But other than that he was suprised with lfs physics, he found it too hard to drift in lfs though and blamed it on the cars mostly.
2007 Polish drift champion play lfs from time to time too. His biggest complain is unrealistic ffb with g25.
There are some other drifters with cars that can get tires much more hot than my lacking power bemer, but they do not experience soap as well. I think you can agree that comparision to drifting is much better to judge hot tires.
I'm going a bit offtopic here, and I know you guys hate what I'm saying, because I mention drifting, but lfs is a brillant drifting simulator. Somehow the devs managed what others couldn't - make the car drift very, I mean very close to real life. So maybe they should invest little time to make 1 dori XRT (more power, tracking options setup, caster, steering lock) and fix those soap tires.
Mate, awesome post!
But really, is it really so "simple" to catch a slide in rl? Yeah, if I give my G25 to hands to someone not experienced with LFS he will spin the car easly, for me it is rather simple to catch a slide. Btw2. Is high speed drifting also realistic? Isn't it a little bit too easy? I know it is offtopic, but it's good to hear someone's opinion who knows what he's talking about .I haven't drifted 160 km/h or 200, but I did 3rd gear entry on airport (130km/h) and the biggest difference was the fact that the surroundings were moving faster (One of the very good polish drifters once said the same thing about surroudings, I can't recall who). On the event from last weekend it was harder in 3rd gear than 2nd, because of transition to 3rd gear and lack of power - it took some clutch kicks to get the drift going properly. Then it was just that surroundings moved faster as well. edit: also with lack of power it's easier to spin on for example 3rd gear. If I did let tires slow down too much, I couldn't keep the drift going, lost angle and spun (I will post a vid later). There's a similar effect in lfs.
About catching the drift - it really isn't so hard in real life. It's not as snappy as people imagine. I only feel it is a bit too easy to get slide going, but not snappyness wise. And 2008 polish drift champion actually finds lfs harder than real life.
Ofcourse that's my subjective opinion. Maybe it's more snappy than I realise, but I think not.
Ohh... i need RWD sooo much 
. Life is so unjust , my sis is driving Lexus IS with over 200bhp... and i'm driving a bloody Ford Ka... i want to have rich boyfriend too 
. But seriously, thanks for answer. I hope devs are reading this topic, it might be usefull for them. I'm still quiet suprised that LFS is so realistic and drifting is so "easy". For some time i've been saying to people that IRacing is the way to go , need to change that view . Tried drifting in IRacing but slicks(propably) and low power of the Solstice is too difficult to me to master for now .
. Life is so unjust , my sis is driving Lexus IS with over 200bhp... and i'm driving a bloody Ford Ka... i want to have rich boyfriend too . But seriously, thanks for answer. I hope devs are reading this topic, it might be usefull for them. I'm still quiet suprised that LFS is so realistic and drifting is so "easy". For some time i've been saying to people that IRacing is the way to go , need to change that view . Tried drifting in IRacing but slicks(propably) and low power of the Solstice is too difficult to me to master for now .
The elephant in the living room (Tire Physics)
(245 posts, started )
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