We have two forms of licence over here, normal (you have to pass with a manual) and auto, you can assume what that means. Normal can drive either, the latter can only drive manual. More often than not everyone does the former.
As for manual vs auto, it depends on the car.
Range Rover for example, I would only get one in auto guise, as a manual range rover is just silly (partly because the manual boxes are known to be shit and partly because you're in a range rover). A Land Rover Defender would be stupid in auto guise however so I'd only get it in manual.
A BMW should only come in manual (with the exception of larger ones), but Merc is best as an automatic.
I can't see the point in small cars being automatic as most of the fun in them is the gocart factor, but barges generally need to be auto so you can waft from place to place. But of course it is all personal preference. I know people who would never drive an auto and visa versa.
1988 I got my driver's license and a hand-me-down automatic Ford Escort. 1990 I bought my first car on my own and it was a 4 speed. I've driven manual up until 2007 when I had to dump my vehicle due to problems and bought my wife a new one and took hers as a work runner hand-me-down. So now I've been stuck with an automatic for myself for the past 2 years.
I live out in the country and grew up in a small town outside of Pittsburgh PA. I spent some time commuting and working in Pittsburgh back in the 90's. The traffic was stop and go as you got into the city. I found the manual lovely because it was much easier to stick it in gear and let the idle pull along at a pace to keep me from starting and stopping. Everyone else would blast up 20 feet, stop, blast up 20 feet, stop while I just idled along at a steady pace and kept up at 15 mph or whatever was required for keeping a steady pace. Manual was much nicer than an auto in traffic in my opinion.
Tis true, but as was said, 90% of the people use a car as merely a tool for getting from point A to point B. They don't care about feeling the car, they just move and steer it. Unless you are one to enjoy the actual act of driving (as most here I assume do) then there is no need to "feel" the car nor do you no matter what type of equipment the car has because you aren't pushing the car any.
Indeed I am also angered about the majority driving automatic. Why is that? It is because I am very limited on the cars that I have available to purchase over here in the US. For most models, a manual is no longer available. For most that it is available, I would have to buy the bare bones minimum model to get a manual. If I had to cut wood for heating my home (very common out where I live), had a boat that I wanted to haul, or any other reason for needing a larger truck, I couldn't get it in a manual anymore. I am currently in need of a car, but I need a 4 door with room for the kids now that the wife works and would have the family runner with her, there aren't any available that interests me that would have a manual. I would need to buy a small hatchback usually in a 2 door configuration or other similar small car if I want a manual which none would suit my other needs of hauling the kids and dog around. That is why it angers me, the market in the US is not there for manual transmissions, thus there is nothing in the market for me.
Up hills, yes you can force it into gear, usually. Usually because until very recently, even if you have it forced down a gear, depending on how close you are to the limit, it will simply refuse to change, or it will change up anyways even though you've gotten it forced down. My 2 year old Mazda Tribute (that's the family runner I mentioned I bought for the wife) is the first automatic I've driven that if I put it in 2nd gear from a start, it actually started in 2nd gear (useful in snow/ice.)
Snow and ice, there's another point in the auto vs. manual debate, with 4wd. Everyone states "there's nothing you can do on ice" when you have to brake. They just assume that you can not brake without locking the wheels up. That is where the ABS falls into play and is the main arguement for ABS. But, if you take a 4WD (true 4WD I'm talking, not the AWD stuff) out in snow and ice with a manual, the engine is directly connected to the drivetrain, thus the engine spinning helps to keep the wheels unlocked under braking. With auto, you touch the brakes, the wheels are going to lock. This also goes with FWD as well. RWD not so much because the drivetrain isn't connected to the front wheels where the majority of the braking force is at.
I'm the exact opposite of Sam here. Though I'm not quite as wrinkly aged as Sam (), I am getting to the middle-age and with family history, I'd argue that I am well past middle aged for the family life expectancy. I just turned 37 and wow, that sounds SO much closer to 40 than 36 did, hehehe. Anyways, like I said, I'm stuck currently with the wifey-hand-me-down auto and I'm hating it. I got the boy racer out of the system years ago as well, but I am still hating driving an auto transmission.
i dunno what automatics you have been driving (electric, steam or rubberband powered) but i have NEVER seen an automatic that is CHEAPER to drive then a manual?.. pls enlighten me..
I don't feel like I'm being assaulted, I just truly don't understand why so many people are against automatic gearboxes. A lot of them have preconceived notions about how bad they are because they once drove a 1978 POS to the airport and it was always in the wrong gear and took 2 seconds to shift. Modern autoboxes are so much better than they used to be. I've only driven 2 cars with automatic gearboxes: a '90s Fiat Punto (which was disgustingly bad) and my current 2004 Volvo S40. The S40 is so much better than the Punto was. I've had it for about 18 months now and I think I've only felt it was in the 'wrong' gear once. The control unit for the gearbox is so good, the way it sense road speed and throttle position is fantastic. If you want to cruise about town it'll shift up as soon as it can get comfortably into the next gear. If you want to go a bit quicker you put down the throttle about halfway and it'll go about halfway through the rev range. If you want to overtake and you use full throttle it'll scream its nuts off up to the redline. It's so natural and well done. I've driven a lot of cars with manual gearboxes (about 10) for years, so I have experience on both sides of the fence. I'm not just an auto fanboy.
Percieved notion that there is a lot more maintenance to a manual. My parents were very hesitant on my buying a manual as my first purchased car (after their hand-me-down.) The general public seems to think that you have to changed the clutch constantly or something. It wasn't until my 5th manual vehicle that I had to replace the clutch. That was a Toyota 4x4 and the maintenance is pretty straight forward from my experience. Front brakes every 50k, rear brakes every 150k, and clutch every 150k, nearly exact.
Also if you look at what a shop charges to replace a clutch, it will blow your mind. I paid $125 I think for the clutch itself and changed it in a weekend. No more than removing two handfuls of bolts, lowering the tranny on a jack, pull and replace the disk, and reinstall the transmission. Very simple, yet a shop would have charged me $1200-1500 to have it done. Took me 8 hours by myself with only a socket set, torque wrench, and a regular floor jack with a homebuilt cradle for the transmission. Easy as pie. A shop has much better specialty tools and pneumatic tools that make the job even easier.
If you mean at very slow speeds, then I agree - but many newer transmissions will automatically lock up and engine brake on a steep grade. It just senses when speed is increasing despite the throttle position.
Drag racing.
Eh? You can do this in an auto as well.
My father's 1988 Mazda MPV minivan does the exact same thing. Even in 88, some of the imported auto trans's were really not too bad in terms of control and intelligence. It also had a delayed upshift mode and whatnot, not bad for 1988.
Now that the yanks (:razz have cought up a little bit, autos are nothing like they used to be. I took a Dodge Avenger on vacation last year and it was pretty good - a 6 speed auto which you can have in manual "mode", where you just flick the shifter left/right to shift down/up. It's no DCT obviosly but it's not even the same category as the transmissions of old. And it hauls ass, first gear is ridiculously short.
Of course, I prefer manuals as well because I love to drive. But I think some of the arguments are a bit over of the top and quite dodgy in this thread heh.
I hate the fact that I may be sticking my nose in middle of an argument over here, but...
Actually for what I believe, the fastest drag cars have some kind of manual transmissions. Automatic can perform really good on dragstrip, but the fastest ones I believe use a hydraulic transmission, with usually 3 different gears which are changed manually. Tho this is more like semi-auto, so to judge if it's auto or manual is a different story then. But well at least it's a "stick shift".
All I know that I'm happy driving with manual everyday, wouldn't change a thing in it.
Yeah I understand your point about some of the higher level pro series, but bottom line is that very very few people that are serious about drag racing would be using a manual transmission that is the type in a road car (having to clutch). Manual shifting yes - but not the same type of trans.
Getting from A to B cheaply and reliably is one thing newer automatics and manuals both do.
But in the end it's not the transmission, it's the driver.
One of the things I saw alot when I worked at a repair shop was wrecked automatics, all the way from cheapo Civics to BMWs. People don't realize that even though you don't have to replace the clutch, which isn't that often anyway, you still have to maintain the transmission.
One person came in with an old Mercedes benz, they had almost no fluid left in the transmission. When I asked the guy when he had last checked it he responded with, "I have to put fluid in it?"
That seems to be a trend, but thats a whole other debate.
I still stand by my statement that manuals keep the driver more aware of the things around thier car. You have to be more aware of braking points, turns, and anything that might become an obstacle. Sure you are doing more, but it keeps you mentaly awake and aware.
My family's old econoline 150 was written off because some idiot in an automatic fell asleep at the wheel and took out the entire passenger side with his expensive SUV. And this was on a public street.
I will admit that on a highway where you are in the same gear for a long period of time its the same thing, you are just as likely to lose awarness in a manual as in an automatic. But on city streets thats not the case, manuals keep you aware of the car because you have to actively controll it based on whats outside the car.
All to often I see people with cell phones and other devices in thier hands and they are completely unaware of what is going on around thier vehicle, the only thing they see is that device and whats straight ahead. In a manual you have to use a hands free system at the very least, so you still have your hand free to shift. Additionaly, you still have to be looking ahead and around so you can plan your next action.
Some people say shifting becomes unconsious, but thats not realy the case. It simply becomes integrated into your driving routine to the point that you are always aware of what might effect your shift points and steering inputs. You become a more consious driver simply because you have to be to drive a manual. In the end this will translate into a driving habit that will make you a safer driver in an automatic.
i have to admit that between being too low to see past the car in front of you, not trying to spool the turbo while the engine is cold, not being used to the gear ratios yet and having a clutch with the shortest range of motion ive driven yet my car isnt the most enjoyable drive in city traffic
but compared to the automatics ive driven and or sat in thus far is rather go through the agony of dealing with the manual instead of always being in the wrong gear when youre trying to overtake a lorry and those ridiculous brake pedals that were apparently built for elephants feet instead of humans
same here and i have to say judging from my car he has a point with american drivers being lazy and stupid
on that note does anyone know the simplest way of permanently stopping a us model toyota from blasting the most annoying beeping noise into my ears as soon as i merely put the key into the ignition if either the door is open or i havent put my seatbelt on yet?
it is not
well over 90% of all cars here are manuals and auto boxes are hardly sold at all and i doubt most dealerships that dont sell mercedes even have them readily available for most cars at all
that means that someone who cant deal with a clutch wont ever be able to drive any of his freinds cars if its necessary for whatever reason
also many cars sold lately are sporty diesels with 6 gears so being able to shift is beoming increasingly important
except its worse than locking the wheels on snow
i think you should train your foot a bit more if thats the case
with summer tyres on snow through several winters ive rarely locked the wheels without intending to
yes its a fwd manual car but on snow youd be at very low revs where the puny little italian engine hardly produces any torque at all
I probably couldnt agree less with you. If you can learn to be aware with a car where you're also shifting and clutching, wouldnt you be just as aware if not more so with an automatic? Also, what age are most learning drivers? Can we agree to people in their later teens? Also, this demographic is probably one of the most active when if comes to phone use, right? Unless I'm doing something quite wrong, it is very hard to text or talk without a hands free device. Dont you think keeping people off their phones while driving is good? At least state side, only a few states have a law against driving while talking or texting, and even then, many choose to ignore these laws.
Like some others have said, the argument is that clutches wear out fast, but unless you're a complete hack, you should be able to make it quite far on a clutch, and some wear along the lines, you're going to have to get work done on an automatic transition, plus manuals are cheaper to start off with by the cost of at least one clutch replacement.
I find the notion quite amusing that some in here equalize the ability to change gears manually with being a better driver... Honestly, most europeans should know that the truth couldn't be further away.
Heh, indeed there's MORE than plenty of moronic drivers out there that seem to be able to drive a ... stick. I guess it probably just isn't as hard as you're making it sound then.
Why do you have to be more aware of braking points, turns, and anything else if you are driving a manual? Please explain...
You can't possibly tell what type of transmission someone is driving as they go by you completely unaware with a cell phone glued to the side of their head. That is completely irrelevant.
When I was young, and I don't condone this behavior now of course, but I was fully capable of driving my manual transmission while rolling a joint steering with my knee and not using a clutch to shift when needed while paying attention to where I was going. I didn't say it was smart, just that I wasn't oblivious to my surroundings. It's the fact that people become oblivious to their surroundings while engaged on a cell phone that is the problem, not the fact that they are only able to do it because they drive an auto.
I was going to mention that. It drives me crazy. My foot literally gets stuck under the brake pedal if I need to be quick off the throttle and onto the brake in my Altima, there is so little foot room to begin with. Then the brake pedal the size of my living room couch compounds on top of the room thing.
January 31, 2007 was the last time I drove a manual as that's when I traded my old truck for Wifey's new one. To this day, I still go for the clutch and reach for the stick in a "panic" situation. Panic situations where I live is when deer run out in front of you which happens very often. There's no time to do any fancy footwork and shifting (in manual), you just slam both feet down, one on the clutch and one on the brake, and I still find myself going with both feet after nearly 2.5 years and about 40,000 miles being without a manual.
Says you. I have been driving 4WD Toyota pickup trucks for the past 12 years not including the last 2 with the wifey-hand-me-down I mentioned earlier. When the snow flew it was time to play . No low revs for me. Front and rear wheels firmly connected to the engine, I never needed to change my driving any with throttle blips on downshifts and using engine braking. Of course there is allowance for leaving a lot more room for braking, but in snow I actually engine braked even more than on dry clear roads.
ah but you probably had suitable tyres not the old summer tyres with barely any thread left
interesting little tidbit i just remembered about why american drive automatics so much
a couple of years ago i heard an interesting after dinner speech or rather lecture on the sociology of cars
anyway apparently in the 50s america was quite proud of ther (notoriously late) air force and car manufactures tried to tap into that
so their add often had cars next to lightnings and other crafts and they added lots of silly fins (the airfoil kind not the rally driver kind) and other things to make them look a bit like aeroplanes
for example those gear selectors that look like throttle levers on their performance (imagine me saying that with as much sarcasm as you could possibly squeeze into a single word) models
to wrap this up and bring us back to manual vs automatics they figured that the discontinous drive a manual gives you doesnt at all feel like the pull you get from a propeller and thus the american obsession with terrible looking cars with even more terrible gearboxes was born
How full of yourself you have to be to think people who drive automatic are lesser drivers?
Driving is a combination of skill, awareness, experience and attitude, being able to drive a manual is just a part in the skill department, to be honest I am much more afraid of drivers with bad attitude then bad skill.
if someone is cutting lanes without signaling, weaving in traffics, or anything that actually affects you, I can understand why you would be annoyed. But whether other person is driving a manual or auto has no impact on you, so why?
We are motorheads alright, most of us here are, but you better look out the window and realise cars were invented to be a convinience, it was designed to be operated easily, by people of various abilities, not everyone drive for challenges and fun, some just need to drive in order to get around.
It's a very elitist and self-righteous thought from the OP, imo.
Have you even bothered to read anything I've written in its entirety? I dont recall saying that anyone who drives an automatic is a bad or lesser driver.
Also, if I understand what you're saying, you'd rather be driving next to someone with a good attitude who is a terrible driver who cant hold a lane?
And, I guess in the politically correct world, I should have a disclaimer: These are my opinions, if you dont agree, congrats, you cant think for yourself. I thought that was logic, but I guess I was wrong.
I never said everyone who drives an automatic is a lesser driver. That is putting words in my mouth.
I'll keep saying it, if you have to be doing something actively you will be more aware of what is going on, because you have to adapt yourself more to conditions.
It's very similar to what used to happen with trains, the driver would fall asleep and crash the train, this is because all he had to do to make the train go forward was set the control and keep his foot on a pedal. Thats very simmilar to an automatic, aside from steering inputs.
When they realized this they began to add things that made the driver pay attention to whats going on, if he doesn't actively control the train it will shut down.
For the sake of comfort they arn't going to put those sort of things in cars, but at least with a manual you have to actively be aware, if you arn't you could stall the car, something that doesn't happen with an automatic unless there is something wrong with it.
Just because there are a fue people who are bad drivers in manuals or automatics doesn't mean there are alot more in either. What I am trying to say is that learning manual will help a new driver learn more about being aware and raise their awareness of the car and what is going on around it.
If you've been driving an automatic a long time, so what? its not like I'm calling you an idiot for not driving a manual. All I am saying is that new drivers can learn alot from driving more than one type of transmission and will be more aware when they do drive an automatic.
I just don't get why driving a manual is more active than driving an automatic. Ok, I give it to you that you have to do more stuff to keep going. But at least for me, 99% of the gear changes I do, I do without actively thinking about it, thus, I don't think it makes me more alert than an automatic driver.
Additionally, if you have to think about changing gears, it's definately distracting you from the traffic around you, thus it would be more advisable to use an automatic.
Also, the lack of alertness doesn't come from not using a gear lever, but from monotony.
), I am getting to the middle-age and with family history, I'd argue that I am well past middle aged for the family life expectancy. I just turned 37 and wow, that sounds SO much closer to 40 than 36 did, hehehe. Anyways, like I said, I'm stuck currently with the wifey-hand-me-down auto and I'm hating it. I got the boy racer out of the system years ago as well, but I am still hating driving an auto transmission.
have cought up a little bit, autos are nothing like they used to be. I took a Dodge Avenger on vacation last year and it was pretty good - a 6 speed auto which you can have in manual "mode", where you just flick the shifter left/right to shift down/up. It's no DCT obviosly but it's not even the same category as the transmissions of old. And it hauls ass, first gear is ridiculously short. 