well as the topic says, do I need to get the DIY tools out to have an equal chance on the track? my DFP only has accelerator / brake. and the gearshift is off of the wheel, so i have trouble pressing the buttons on right hand side as I change gear? here are the options i see at the moment:

a) I use L2 as clutch button, feels awkward as i stretch my thumb over to press it while turning the wheel, its a bit far away from my the edge of the wheel.

b) I stop using look left / right on my paddles, and put the clutch there, but now i cant look left or right.

c) I stop using the gearstick on it, and use the paddles for gears and put the clutch on the 4 main buttons.

anything else i could do?

Use auto clutch

That's what I use with my DFP, and I think the majority of racers do as well, except those that actually have clutch pedals of course. You're not gaining anything shifting with a button clutch, and probably losing time actually

Yep, use auto-clutch, I dont believe a clutch pedal will turn you, or anyone into a superstar on the track.

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

Yep, use auto-clutch, I dont believe a clutch pedal will turn you, or anyone into a superstar on the track.

Dan,

I would say, from experience, it can slow your gear changes down a little BUT its far more fun with clutch.

A clutch pedal would add realism and fun , however using a button kinda defeats the object
There used to be a slight advantage using button clutch but I dont think this is the case anymore . Losing the ability to look left right just isint worth it IMO, switch to auto clutch and look for/make a pedal

SD.

Its much harder with a clutch pedal. Use auto clutch.

If you use a clutch you need to brake and accel with one foot so cornering is much harder. You could learn to heel toe but thats very difficult to do properly unless your a pro racing driver.

There's a disadvantage to using a manual clutch at the moment, in that it detracts from realism.. rather defeating the purpose somewhat. If you let go the clutch with no gas and full brake, the car should stall. It doesn't. Yet. Once that's fixed, I think a manual clutch will be well worth having around. Until then, in MY mind at least, it's not worth losing seconds over.

I use the pedals to an old driving force for the clutch.. Works great. They put back throttle blip on downshift so that works perfect.. no need to worry about spinning because you cannot LFB... I can LFB, but in reality the plastic pedals can't handle it.

I love the clutch for coming out of corners as well as downshifting- even with blip on downshift you can still more control the power or engine braking with a clutch pedal.

I don't think using a manual clutch makes you noticably faster, but using a manual clutch pedal and a proper shifter makes it *much* more fun. I use the pedals off a MS Sidewinder for a clutch, and a Logitech Force 3D joystick modified into a gear shifter, and it makes the road cars a lot more fun. I reckon when using a manual clutch and shifter you gain an advantage in some secarnio's as well, like UF1 @ SO Classic, I'm a lot faster there compared to when I ran auto clutch and using the paddles.

Quote from dave81983 :

Its much harder with a clutch pedal. Use auto clutch.

If you use a clutch you need to brake and accel with one foot so cornering is much harder. You could learn to heel toe but thats very difficult to do properly unless your a pro racing driver.

Heel toe is not hard, just depends on the pedal setup and practice. I use the actlabs pro pedals and heel toe or left foot brakes depending on the situation I am in.

There are different techniques for heel toe depending on the person and what car you learn in. I turn my foot about 45deg to left and use my toes on the brakes and heel to blip the gas. This lets me get the control of my toes for the brakes and less control on the blip which does not need to be exact.

Quote from dave81983 :

Its much harder with a clutch pedal. Use auto clutch.

If you use a clutch you need to brake and accel with one foot so cornering is much harder. You could learn to heel toe but thats very difficult to do properly unless your a pro racing driver.

I've got a ghetto home made clutch pedal. Heel and toe downshifting isn't all that hard, just takes a little bit to get used to. Definately adds to the coolness factor if u can do it right, sounds awesome in game

ya i know what is with you guys saying heel toe is hard? lol i dont have a clutch, but theres a F355 sim around here and i do it all the time wen i race that hell the first time i ever tryed i had the gist of it (cool thing about the game is wen you pull it off right you go much faster out of turns hehe)

Quote from richy :

Do i need to get / make myself a clutch to be competetive?

Nope.

well that is good to know, i think if i ever get some new pedals in the future i will consider a clutch but for now ill keep it as it is.

thank you for the replies.

Quote from dave81983 :

Its much harder with a clutch pedal. Use auto clutch.

If you use a clutch you need to brake and accel with one foot so cornering is much harder. You could learn to heel toe but thats very difficult to do properly unless your a pro racing driver.

I guess then I am a pro racing driver when I rev match and heel/toe downshift on my commute to work everyday.

i would like to note the most awesomest idea EVAR!... use a force-feedback joystick, properly programmed to behave like the real thing clutchless shifting, etc! we can even have the synchromesh noise and rumble when you do something silly!

Quote from george_tsiros :

i would like to note the most awesomest idea EVAR!... use a force-feedback joystick, properly programmed to behave like the real thing clutchless shifting, etc! we can even have the synchromesh noise and rumble when you do something silly!

someone has made a FFB prograb for a joystick as a shifter.. but cause of the FFB limitations, all they could do for the shifter was the gates..

Manual shifts are faster in LFS, it's a simple fact once you become proficient at it. This doesn't mean that you have to manual clutch to be fast, you will gain more speed in other areas first before needing the quite small advantage of manual clutching.

Using a clutch pedal is definitely a LOT more fun and really adds to immersion. It seems unfair that the aids in LFS make it possible to drive faster with less realistic controls. Personally I think (as I grab my firesuit) that the auto-clutch and other aids LFS offers should be made dog-slow so that there's an advantage to using a clutch pedal. What's the point of punishing people for using the most realistic control setup available? I doubt ANY of the WRs are done with a clutch pedal or even a manual clutch. Before I had the pedal setup, I used a button clutch (left thumb clutch, right hand shift) simply because it's more control. Letting LFS do all the work for you, be it clutch, throttle blip or cut seems to defeat the whole purpose of what LFS is about I THINK. :hide:

Also, the behaviours really need to change in the transmissions... Small things really: missing a shift puts you into neutral.... It should not go out of neutral when you press the clutch. Likewise, pressing the shifter and then pressing the clutch should not "insta-shift". And obviously the car needs to be able to stall.

I only know S1. And there you get a real advantage when you using the clutch manually. But you don't need a pedal for this... a button is enough.

In the S2 demo I don't use the clutch anymore because it's not working right so you can't change the gear sometimes... this will cost you too much time.

Perhaps this issue is solved in the last patches... I don't checked this out so far because I'm not interested in S2.

Robbson.

BBT - At the moment you won't be making it fairer at all! Tell me a decent wheel that comes with a clutch pedal or lever? There aren't many (I can think of one). So make autoclutch slow isn't fair on those of us who don't have clutch pedals, and merely hands an advantage to those who can afford to buy (or make) a clutch pedal. When, and only when, PC wheels come with a clutch pedal, as they surely must sooner or later, should Autoclutch be made into a disadvantage despite the fact it's not realistic.

I spent as much money as I could afford on a two pedal ECCI unit that plugs directly into my Momo (or a DFP if I could afford the FREX gear). I couldn't stretch to a three pedal system of that quality. I know I could have gone cheaper, but that wasn't why I was buying pedals. So why should I, and everyone else in my position without a clutch, be penalised? It's not MY fault PC hardware doesn't come with a clutch pedal. -1000

As for improving the simulation side of things (clutch behaviour, insta-shifting etc) then I'm right behind you +1

I think I can start off faster with a clutch than someone without... It seems on starts I am always almost running into the back of the person in front of me..

Actually after a few hours I go back to auto clutch because it gets very tiring to hit it on every shift- and I think during a lap I am faster with out a clutch pedal.

One thing I don't like is that if you don't hit the clutch- or do not press it far enough, you cannot shift at all- and then when you press it again it auto shifts.. also it remembers the shift- so lets say I shift w/o the clutch from 5th to 4th- then wait 10 seconds, then downshift shift with the clutch- it will end up in 3rd.. That is just plain wrong.

Or I can shift with out the clutch on purpose, and then when I get to the corner when I want to downshift just press the clutch without shifting and it will go into gear- like an auto-shift. Weird things like that need to to be cleaned up.

@Tristan....

I look at it the other way - it's not being "penalized" , just incentive to make attemps to run more true-to-life controls. Right now, if lap times are one's biggest concern, then there is no reason to even look into getting a clutch pedal. Mine is cheap, $10. Bought the crappiest wheel I could find and used it for a clutch, and it works great. It does help starting in the turbo GTRs which take ages to build boost - it's rewarding to fire the FXR / XRR off the line holding the revs at peak power (or torque for some of us ) and slipping the clutch until things get rolling.... I understand what you're saying though, but then, just like IRL the people with the "best technology" have the greatest technical advantage ( although not necessarily skill ).

@BWX: Agree with your points. Although I am too stubborn to NOT use a clutch pedal, ergo my left foot muscles become sore and I walk funny after excessive stints in LFS.

If I was in a real cockpit- or a homebuilt cockpit- I think I would use it longer.. but sitting in a chair it puts a lot of pressure on my lower back for some reason.. (even in my very low chair) because I basically lift my whole leg up- I dunno.. but yeah I agree it is slower overall to use a clutch it seems. You cannot do it as perfectly every time as LFS does it when set to auto clutch. I like slipping the clutch though- that part is cool.. especially on starts.

well my original topic was trying to find out if we already did get penalised for not using a manual clutch... with LFS at its current stage of development i think its not a good time to give clutch users an advantage, but in the future when the game models engine damage / clutch damage and engine stalls etc then it would add more realism.

also what about autocross or rallycross does manual clutch give you an advantage there?