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I don't really want to argue or anything, because I pretty much love all engines. But 400bhp from big N/A engine isn't that special.

If I remember correctly there is a hillclimb mk2 Escort in Greece, with dyno charts telling numbers of 400 bhp. The engine in it is 2 litre N/A 16V YB Cosworth, highly tuned, goes up to 12k revs. Ok the engine is pretty "fancy" work and sure there has been some speculations of the accuracy of dyno charts, but I still like this example.

2.3 litre N/A Ford Duratec engines in rally usage very often produce ~320 bhp and they also have a very nice wide torque band.

Also 2.6 litre N/A Pinto engines are often used in rallying, these are making 300+ bhp with 8 valves and carbs and they are producing a very lovely torque curves too.

And also the old good BDA/BDG, the fastest N/A 2 litres making about 350 bhp and even under 10k rpm.

Tho I also know that you could squeeze a lot more out of that V8.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Yeah, 400bhp, and about 437ci...

Wrong. Stop making assumptions. And I said OVER 400hp; keep it mind that it's a very cheap, budget build, and the heads are very restrictive for it right now...lets see a 4cyl do that on a tight budget. Good luck. I'd also like to see what you guys have yourselves that are apparently so awesomely fast, which must mean it has at LEAST 600hp from a 1.8L turbo engine. I'm using two cars that I have worked on and/or paid for; worked with dad on the Chevelle for 10 years, and I've done a ton of work to my Tbird for about 4 years now and paid for just about every penny. It's much different when youre talkin about your own money and cars as opposed to other peoples'. You can sit here and say "LOL 300-400hp, thats nothing special!" Oh really? Lets see you do it. I honestly think that none have you have ANY idea what all goes into building an engine, especially if you think our power numbers are "nothing special."

http://smg.photobucket.com/alb ... ngine%20Project/?start=80
There's the album for my 306 build, and it does no justice to all the work, time, research, and money that went into it. But take a look through...it covers about 15-16 months.

Also, engines like the LSx series are completely redesigned; Ford's 4.6 is nothing like a 30 year old V8, and they'll be making it into a 5.0 for the 2011 Mustang iirc. I don't know what kind of "research" you've been doing, but it fails miserably. And besides, there are no engines out right now that AREN'T "updated" versions of what we've had for decades...isn't that called progression?
I hope that above post wasn't aimed at me, well at least not the a bit angry sounding parts. I wasn't trying to argue, or prove you wrong, I just enjoy talking about engines.
Quote from BigPeBe :I hope that above post wasn't aimed at me, well at least not the a bit angry sounding parts. I wasn't trying to argue, or prove you wrong, I just enjoy talking about engines.

Well saying "400bhp from big N/A engine isn't that special" isn't a good way to stray away from an argument. Trust me...as I learned with my first engine build, there is so much stuff that goes into doing it than you could imagine. It's taken a lot of work just to build my extremely mild 250rwhp 306ci V8 (thats RWhp, NOT bhp...bhp is closer to 300ish). You need to make sure the combo is well matched (<--- thats where people tend to fail. Bigger isnt always better) and will meet your goals (hp/tq, rpm, power band etc), the fuel system and computer (unless it's carb'd..but that needs to be matched too) have to be enough for it, have the rotating assembly balanced, you need to decide on how much compression you want, what kind of pistons, check bearing clearances, check piston-to-valve clearance, degree the camshaft, torque all bolts down to the proper torque and in the proper order, make sure all gaskets seal, etc. And that's just scratching the surface.
Heh maybe I went a bit wrong in there, but didn't really know a better way of getting on the subject.

I'm not really that experienced, I have done some work with engines and cars but not much. I wouldn't know how to build a powerful working V8, but I'm pretty aware of the Ford Pinto engines, there's one in my current car, not that powerful really but it has a bit of a grunt. They are so popular and there is so much knowledge floating around. Tho on some things I think I would have to rely on professional tuners to get it right, like cam timing or getting the right combination of valves/springs/rocker arms for the cam I would be using.
It's just a shame I can't get working on them currently because I don't have the money and time now. Maybe in few years...

I enjoy engines, 4-pots, straight-6s, V6s and V8. I love how they sound and they all have their own characteristics.
As Euro guy I'm just more familiar with 4-pots.

Saying 400bhp from big engine isn't special doesn't mean I wouldn't like owning one. I don't wanna mock the old American push rod V8 type of engines, I love them too. They have their own raw character, TBH I actually prefer them to the modern V8 engines. I like all the oldskool stuff.
Quote from Bawbag :http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... car+discussion&page=4


S14 in another heated discussion? Whoda thunk?

Quote from BigPeBe :Heh maybe I went a bit wrong in there, but didn't really know a better way of getting on the subject.

I'm not really that experienced, I have done some work with engines and cars but not much. I wouldn't know how to build a powerful working V8, but I'm pretty aware of the Ford Pinto engines, there's one in my current car, not that powerful really but it has a bit of a grunt. They are so popular and there is so much knowledge floating around. Tho on some things I think I would have to rely on professional tuners to get it right, like cam timing or getting the right combination of valves/springs/rocker arms for the cam I would be using.
It's just a shame I can't get working on them currently because I don't have the money and time now. Maybe in few years...

I enjoy engines, 4-pots, straight-6s, V6s and V8. I love how they sound and they all have their own characteristics.
As Euro guy I'm just more familiar with 4-pots.

Saying 400bhp from big engine isn't special doesn't mean I wouldn't like owning one. I don't wanna mock the old American push rod V8 type of engines, I love them too. They have their own raw character, TBH I actually prefer them to the modern V8 engines. I like all the oldskool stuff.

I agree with you in just about every fashion. I love all engines. One project I'd love to do one day is a 2.3T Pinto...get it to like 300rwhp, quiet exhaust, hubcaps, and just scare the crap out of people at stop lights . Pull up next to ricers, make sure they hear the BOV, and picture the look on their faces . However, statements like "400bhp is nothing special" is just a bad comment to make; even for a V8 build, it's a lot of work to get a car to that much horsepower, and when it's your own money, things tend to quickly come into perspective; especially when you don't cut corners, which I found out quickly near the end of my 306 project. As my dad has always said, "You can go as fast as you'd like; how deep is your wallet?"

As for old school stuff, I also agree. There is *NOTHING* else quite like riding in torque monster muscle cars with sloppy suspensions, bare bones interiors, no ergonomics, no sound deadening, etc. As one of my friends said while riding in my dad's Chevelle, it's just like a roller coaster ride. Especially when well over 400ftlbs of torque slams you back in the seat!
Quote from kingcars :Thanks for answering your own question. And please, read my whole post. Specifically this part:

My apologies. These guys must be right. I'm not your normal "american" who doesn't understand sarcasm as these guys gripe all the time about. I should have put that in [sarcasm][/sarcasm]tags. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at these guys always comparing 70s and 80s V8 with 21 century 4 cylinders....

Quote from S14 DRIFT :Not that that's always a bad thing, but it's no wonder the American car market is in such a state..

Ever think that it's the overall economy that is the reason the American car market is in such a state? The roads are filled to the brim with newish and not quite that old American cars up until the past year or so. All of a sudden, no one has jobs, no one has money, and it is still expected for the auto manufacturers to be selling cars like crazy?



Could someone please tell me all these "big V8 cars" that are out there from the current and recent past market. Chevy Impala, nope, not a V8. Chevy Cobalt, nope, not a V8. Ford Focus, Fusion, Escape, nope, none of those are V8. I guess we have the Chrysler products such as the Neon, PT Cruiser, Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Calibur, they must all be V8 cars. No, not those either. So where are all these V8 cars? Perhaps they are in the not so common "sports cars" and other specialty groups, none of which you see millions of out on the roads. Not even Mustang, the majority of them are not V8. Camaros and Firebirds of yesteryear are majority not V8. That leaves us with the Corvette and the Viper of V8 or bigger status. Hmm, not like you won't go 8, 10 months, few years without seeing one of those on the road.

If you want to talk horsepower of the "sock a ton of money into a 4 cylinder", then we should be talking on an even level. Sock the same amount of money into the V8 that you guys are discussing and you are talking 800, 1000, 1200 horsepower.

The ridiculousness of comparing the "superiority" of 4 cylinder to a V8 just needs to stop. If you aren't comparing the same thing right off the bat, nor talking anything that you have any knowledge of, then the discussion is at an end period.
Quote from mrodgers :My apologies. These guys must be right. I'm not your normal "american" who doesn't understand sarcasm as these guys gripe all the time about. I should have put that in [sarcasm][/sarcasm]tags. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at these guys always comparing 70s and 80s V8 with 21 century 4 cylinders....

Sorry, it was a misunderstanding. I apologize. Saracasm is hard to detect via text.

Glad to see you're taking budget into consideration...people who think the hp numbers of my car and my dad's car are pathetic need to realize what kind of money it takes to even get to that kind of hp.
Quote from kingcars :

As for old school stuff, I also agree. There is *NOTHING* else quite like riding in torque monster muscle cars with sloppy suspensions, bare bones interiors, no ergonomics, no sound deadening, etc. As one of my friends said while riding in my dad's Chevelle, it's just like a roller coaster ride. Especially when well over 400ftlbs of torque slams you back in the seat!

idk, ive been in some nice muscle cars befor and was nothing compared to going sideways in the hills in a light modded S13 silvia, its fun going fast in a straight line, its more fun going fast around corners:P
Quote from masternick :idk, ive been in some nice muscle cars befor and was nothing compared to going sideways in the hills in a light modded S13 silvia, its fun going fast in a straight line, its more fun going fast around corners:P

Well if you were in the right muscle car with the right driver, it'd be sideways while going straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJl__WfU5rE
I think the fun is relative.

Of course a good handling car (take the newest corvette if you want, basically any car with a good chassis and suspension) is more likely to be fun. However, reading what you (masternick) have quoted from kingcars sounds like fun too. It all comes down to personal taste after all.

Somebody post a picture of his/her car, so we can get back on topic in here...
Quote from BigPeBe : I'm pretty aware of the Ford Pinto engines, there's one in my current car, not that powerful really but it has a bit of a grunt. They are so popular and there is so much knowledge floating around. Tho on some things I think I would have to rely on professional tuners to get it right, like cam timing or getting the right combination of valves/springs/rocker arms for the cam I would be using.
It's just a shame I can't get working on them currently because I don't have the money and time now. Maybe in few years...

I know somewhere you can read up on the know how and not need much money, know a guy who makes 200bhp pinto 8valves just with head work (and hes just set up my Efi system)
My turbo spooled on y0!
Quote from mrodgers :Ever think that it's the overall economy that is the reason the American car market is in such a state? The roads are filled to the brim with newish and not quite that old American cars up until the past year or so. All of a sudden, no one has jobs, no one has money, and it is still expected for the auto manufacturers to be selling cars like crazy?

because the last couple of years clearly have nothing to do with it
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09Zk3YO3mU8rK/610x.jpg
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Lmao

I had forgotten about that. I would argue back but I'm about to have a bath to relax, and I don't think I want or need any more stress.

I'll just say in closing that American cars are relatively rubbish. :hide:

Well actually the reason I pointed you all to this thread so you could f**k off over there and leave this thread for posting your cars.
lern2reed
Quote from Bawbag :Well actually the reason I pointed you all to this thread so you could f**k off over there and leave this thread for posting your cars.

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(buntatofu86) DELETED by buntatofu86
Quote from buntatofu86 :Have you ever seen the D1 Mustang driven by Ken Gushi?

Can't say I have...but I did see him on that competition show they had on SpeedTV a year or two ago.
Quote from robt :I know somewhere you can read up on the know how and not need much money, know a guy who makes 200bhp pinto 8valves just with head work (and hes just set up my Efi system)

200bhp from 2 litre Pinto is very reasonable. It is possible to produce that with good headwork and with good cam and 45 sidedrafts and you are still able to produce a nice torque curve with the engine pulling nicely from lower revs too. But for my knowledge the problem is that 200bhp usually requires revs going up to 8k and I have heard that the original internals can't take +7k without the fear of destroying the pistons. Same goes for the very popular Mahle pistons. If you wan't to be able to rev it safely a lot you need more expensive internals to take it.

If I would now have the money, I would probably take the current engine out. Use the original 205 iS block and internals and get a big valve head and select a "fast road" cam with powerband going "only" up to 7k. And then get 45 Dellortos and get them tuned in dyno. 170bhp would be very likely possible and I could set the rev limit somewhere around 7k, or just be sure to not give it more.

But oh well this is just all day dreams. I have to do my mandatory military service so I'm not going to able to make money probably at least for a year now.
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