Hi everone to who is reading this thread,
My Post is written without predudice to anyone
Also my comments on race incidents will as an FM Senior Admin will be fair to all.
Firstly i will make this clear, My following post has nothing to with any protests which have been made.
even if there were no incidents in the entire race i would still make this post.
Decko, although you made a donation for the use of ventrilo and had full Admin rights,
Under no circumstances were Failure , myself or or participants of the race warned or were told that this event would be recorded.
That is something that you should have asked before the race commenced.
Even the Admin of Ventrilo would not and could not record any persons chatting in other channels.
The sub channels are also suppossed to be private strcitly for the teams.
and should not have been used in any circumtsances by any Admin for any purpose.
I would as an Admin say that this be removed from your posting forthwith
as it is morally wrong and also legally wrong to record someone without thier sole permmision.
It is againt international law to record others without permission
i have the legal right to edit this posting if i choose to do so
Just to clarify, it wasn't totally sneaky recording; the recording is an exact replica of what Dekojester could hear for the whole race. So even if he hadn't had recorded it, he has the circumstantial evidence of having candidly heard what was said.
It Makes no difference at all,
at no point was any particpant or Admin of ventrillo notified that any recording would take place.
The point is it was done without any persons permmision and has been used in relation to an incident.
That is still against any Law and as such cannot be used for any purpose period !!
Try reading the Law on this matter. No further discusion required on this plz
See URL http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/message.php?i=916658560
I would also like to say that each user has control on if they want to be recored or not. If you leave it turned on as an option in ventrilo, well then you are allowing yourself to be recored at anytime. In a way this is no different then if you watch a tv broadcast of any race, they are recording your open radio chatter. Also the only thing you are allowed to record is what you hear in ventrilo, so anything said over a private bind would not be heard.
Edit for popps:
Category: Civil Rights Law
State(s), Country: CA (CA), US
But whose law(s) are you using? German, US (Ohio), English, Scots etc - could you kindly link us to the law?
And given that JP had used this setup since the start of the year and during the Kyoto 250, and perhaps even when he adminned the previous 500 race, why has it taken you so long to be bothered about it?
the point you make is ridiculous, at least in my opinion.
in international law it is NOT allowed to record someone if he or she does not know it.
this counts for america and germany aswell.
there is a difference about the permission in america though.
in ny for example it is allowed, if u tell someone that u will record him and he or she says, no i do not want that.
if u tell him or her, that u will not stop recording and he or she is going on with talking, than it is his or her problem, but you are fine.
but that is not our point here.
the point is that we have not been informed about it,
and that is not allowed in america, germany or at international law!
@ boothy
no matter, this is the discussion about race regarding things in the 500 2009 and not any other race u or deko or ndr has been running.
The post Michael made pretty much ends the discussion. You are given the choice to either allow someone to record you or not, and you didn't untick that. Therefore you are accepting that someone records what you're saying...
Actually, anything we broadcast over vent, live stream, youtube, etc. is considered public domain unless it is accompanied by a copyright. I heard no copyright discloseer at the end of the race, so by law that is completely legal as long as it's not rebroadcasted... The vent messages were not rebroadcasted, thus there is no arguement here.
Deko had a phantom in every vent channel, so he could hear what we said in the first place.
I have no problem with him recording, they do the same in real life races, and the only reason you would complain against it is if you said something in the wrong.
@ pmd
that's fine with me, but i do not want to be recorded.
not at all
at least not if i have not been informed about it before.
@ nolan
i guess this is a matter of how u see it.
whether it is public or not.
for me, a passworded server in a teaminternal channel in not public at all.
deko asked if he is allowed to put a phantom in the channel, what we allowed him.
but still he did not asked whether he is allowed to record what we said.
A phantom in channel and a recording serves the same purpose, and that is to hear the voice of the drivers to see what they have to say. A passworded channel is so that other drivers can't hear your race strategy, and has nothing to do with the admins. Deko didn't distribute this recording AFAIK, and even if he did, you shouldn't have anything to regret to begin with.
A recording is only a positive thing, thinking of it as negative is because you did something on that recording that was negative.
nope.
sry, i do not want to be recorded without beeing aware of that someone is doing it...
cause it will always make a difference if u talk with your mates or with an official person, which i consider deko to be in this race.
if you are fine with that, okay, but i am not.
and a phantom is in the channel that we can hear deko, if he for example tells us about the GREEN FLAG. or if we tell him that there is going something wrong.
but not to record others.
i give you your opinion, so plz let me my opinion
After careful and long review of the incident on System Lap 153 of 270 in the 2009 Kyoto 500, the administration has come to the following conclusion:
The incident involving cars 116 and 123 is deemed a RACING INCIDENT.
We make this decision considering the following factors:
Car 123 was holding a line in the third lane, but steering input and projected line was going to run higher later in the corner.
Car 116, from (add-inedit for clarification: Our look via mirrors, Car 116 did not show signs of lookleft) looking via mirrors, and looking left, would have seen what appeared to be Car 123 moving to the second lane, not staying in the third lane, therefore causing Car 116 to turn as he did. We note that Car 123 is starting to slide up in the lane moments before contact is made. The entire situation assessment time and reaction time available was approximately .3 of a second. We do not see any intention of Car 116 attempting to take out Car 123, we deem this as simply a misjudgment.
We do understand that Car 123 had sufficient overlap to hold his line, but we do also understand where Car 116 would have thought the chosen line was lower.
However, another factor into this decision were the occurrences from Lap 148 up until this incident.
On Lap 148, between Turns 1 and 2, Car 123 moves from Lane 2 to Lane 4 to Lane 3 to Lane 4 before turn 2. This is considered excessive blocking by 123.
On Lap 149, entering Turn 1, Cars 808 and 123 move inside of 116 to overtake. 116 and 808 make contact, Car 116 walks up the hill. Cars 123 and 116 make contact side-to-side for much of the straight between turns 1 and 2. This incident is also deemed a racing incident, but Car 808 should have left more space, because there was no intention shown of 123 overtaking inside, so there is no need seen to have stayed as high as was stayed.
We also consider the forces exerted on the cars in the Lap 153 incident. We see a higher than normal amount of force from 116, whereas we see a slightly lesser amount of force from Car 123. We take this as a sign of two things: Car 116 is exerting extra steering input to make the turn, or the car has lost some grip.
We saw more physical contact aggression from Cars 808 and 123 than from 116, and the first contact was a direct result of actions taken by the two Fragmaster cars.
In summary, both cars actions are deemed to have both played a significant role in the incident. Car 123 had plenty of room inside, but Car 116 should have taken a bit more care before turning in. Every administrator who reviewed this incident states that they would have turned in as Car 116 did in that case.
For the avoidable contact on the straight between Turn 1 and Turn 2 on the 149th lap, both drivers of Cars 116 and 123 are being placed on NDR Probation for the next 6 months, effective from the date of this posting. Please see the NDR sporting code for details on what Probation is. We do not tolerate unnecessary contact of the type we saw at this point, as well as the coinciding behavior, hence the probation.
It is legal to record a conversation if you yourself participate in it. It is illegalto record conversations of other people. That is the european legislation of it. Can't say about them yanks.
Either ways, theres an option to stop ppl from recording you. If they had used that option, then ok. Since they allowed ppl to record them, they shouldn't be complaining imo.
And Ronald, very useful post. Makes you seem a little smart even.
I recorded it so I would have a record of all that was said to me or that I said in the event of a dispute about that, I never wanted to have to use it as evidence in a penalty. But, unfortunately, after long consideration of to use it or not (which, you're nuts if you believe that was a snap decision), I did decide to use it.
The Phantoms allow me to hear what is said in every other channel. I can talk to the channels regardless of the phantoms.
And if there was a team not allowing the phantom, I would have not allowed them to start the race if they were refusing to have the phantom in. The private channel is just for teams to avoid other teams hearing. Not for teams to have admins avoid.
In future, the rules will be amended to sort this issue out, and require more "in the clear" talk so an admin is even more aware of what is going on on track. It's not used to catch someone out, it's used to help the admin(s) know what is going on.