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Clean Overtaking Education
1
(31 posts, started )
Clean Overtaking Education
I want to have a discussion that will strongly educate people in how to race WITH other cars on the track. I'm a bit fuzzy about things myself in turns but do fine on the straighter sections.

1. Person being overtaken - must they ever surrender the racing line?

2. I heard of a rule where if the other person reaches with their nose past the seat of your car before a turn, you should surrender the racing line to them? Meaning you'd brake earlier I presume.

3. Assuming you are equal or nearly equal with another car going into a turn - does either have a right to the racing line? Or do you have to keep the outside (or inside if you are there) line until they are clear? I frequently see cars going up side by side or due to lines ending up that way in a turn. The person on the racing line tends to often force the other out when moving toward the apex, or when powering out of the turn near the edge. Who is at fault? It's very confusing.

4. What are good places to 'assist' making an overtaking safe? Straights are a no brainer. But how do you go about doing this if a turn or series of turns are more convinient (you'd lose less time by timing it at that point)? Do you surrender the racing line, or slow down in the middle of the turn, or what? I've tried braking a bit earlier for a turn and moving over at the same time when they are behind me, they seem to appreciate that a lot and I haven't been in a related wreck ever.

5. If one is doing the overtaking, what are acceptable vs not acceptable ways of doing this in a turn or series of turns? What about if you pass the other car just barely before a turn, but you are on the inside and he's on the outside, and thus your line is all screwed up (he will easily blow back past you if you don't get in his way, which you probably will). Arrgh!

6. There's no word called "wreckless". That suggest they are without wreck. People probably think about "RECKLESS". Remember this

I think F1 will be much more interesting to watch after I learn more about what goes and what doesn't.
#2 - Gunn
F1 Flag Rules contained in this PDF.

F1 info on overtaking.

You are not obliged to surrender the racing line under blue flag (except in a practice session).


12 Code of Driving Conduct: (in this case an excerpt taken from New Zeland Motorsport Standing Regulations appendix Z, and represents a typical Code Of Conduct).

12.1
During a race, a vehicle alone on the circuit
may use the full width of the circuit. However, as
soon as it is caught up on a straight by a vehicle
which is either temporarily or constantly faster,
the driver shall maintain position on the circuit
and indicate by signalling the side the faster driver
should overtake on.
Interpretation: Weaving on the straight is not
permitted. The straight is for overtaking not
blocking. A vehicle alone on the circuit may
defend position by moving off the normal line in
one direction only and once committed to an
alternative line must remain there. It is not
permitted to move off line if another vehicle is
overlapping.
12.2 Any driver appearing not to be making
adequate use of the vehicle’s rear view mirror, or
driving in a manner which even if unintentionally
appears consistently to hinder or discourage
another driver seeking to pass, may be warned by
the waving of a blue flag. Repeated offences may
be halted by display of the black flag or otherwise
penalised.
12.3 The drivers any way they wish, within the
limits of the circuit may negotiate curves, as well
as the approach and exit zone thereof.
Overtaking, according to the circumstances
prevailing, may be done either on the right or on
the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers such as premature direction changes,
deliberate crowding of vehicles towards the inside
or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal
change of direction, are strictly prohibited and
shall be penalised, according to the importance
and repetition of the offences.
Interpretation: When overtaking the onus (in
general) is on the driver behind to complete the
manoeuvre safely, racing room may be given but
do not expect the vehicle in front to give way if
you are only part way past
. That is, the driver of
the overtaking vehicle must be at least level with
the driver of the vehicle being overtaken.
12.4 Any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by
one or several drivers, with or without common
interests, is prohibited.
The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as
well as fan-shaped arrangement, is authorised only
if there is not another vehicle trying to overtake.
The repetition of serious mistakes or the
appearance of a lack of control over the vehicle
(such as leaving the circuit) may be penalised.
Interpretation: Pushing other vehicles off the
circuit will not be tolerated.
#3 - filur
#4 - jtr99
Hi, Mikko.

Good questions. The references you've been given above are both very valuable. I'll try to condense things a little: first thing we need is the concept of a turn-in point, but you know what that is right? So, the short story is that if there is no significant overlap before the turn-in point (and for "significant" read "level with the driver's door" or whatever) then the leading car is entitled to the racing line throughout the corner.

If there is significant overlap before the turn-in point (e.g., slipstreaming down the straight, then pulling out and entering a corner absolutely side-by-side) then both cars have to give room to each other all the way through the corner. Note that neither car will be able to use the classic racing line; both will have to deviate in order to make sure that the other guy is not forced off the track.

And that's about it.
Quite frankly, I don't think anyone is 'entitled' to a line. If a car is coming up on your inside, and actually is even slightly at your side you should go wide to give them room to prevent a crash. If the one infront is 3/4 car lenght further ahead, and expects the line then they will most likely turn into the trailing car, causing an accident. The way I see it, just don't hit another car and all is well.

Also, Don't make repeated blocking attempts on the straights. I believe in one or more american based series (I believe specifically the Formula Atlantics?) There is a rule that you can cross the track once in a block-like attempt, but after than, you can not cross back to block if the other driver crosses back. The first blocking move is legal, additional ones are not.

This is how I believe that is how it should be handled anyways.

MAGGOT
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
#6 - lucky
Quote from MAGGOT :Quite frankly, I don't think anyone is 'entitled' to a line. If a car is coming up on your inside, and actually is even slightly at your side you should go wide to give them room to prevent a crash. If the one infront is 3/4 car lenght further ahead, and expects the line then they will most likely turn into the trailing car, causing an accident. The way I see it, just don't hit another car and all is well.

Also, Don't make repeated blocking attempts on the straights. I believe in one or more american based series (I believe specifically the Formula Atlantics?) There is a rule that you can cross the track once in a block-like attempt, but after than, you can not cross back to block if the other driver crosses back. The first blocking move is legal, additional ones are not.

This is how I believe that is how it should be handled anyways.

MAGGOT

I agree 100%. It's really simple: the one that turns into another vehice is to be blamed for the accident, whether he's in front or back a bit, outside or inside. Always give room, and if yoiu're not 100% there's enaough room to take the racing line drive as ther's someone alongside ...
It's about fun and safe racing, not blaming each other for avoidable accident.
#7 - filur
Quote from lucky :I agree 100%. It's really simple: the one that turns into another vehice is to be blamed for the accident, whether he's in front or back a bit, outside or inside. Always give room, and if yoiu're not 100% there's enaough room to take the racing line drive as ther's someone alongside ...
It's about fun and safe racing, not blaming each other for avoidable accident.

Easy to see your point, but i really disagree.

Many corners don't allow side-by-side traffic, anyone can "outbrake" into a tight corner on the inside, putting themselves basically onto the inner curb with 90% of the turning still left to do, the driver on the outside would basically need to stop and just let the "outbraking genius" get thru.
Quote : Overtaking, according to the circumstances
prevailing, may be done either on the right or on
the left.

Thats a genius rule. Its nice to know that you arent allowed to drive over or under another car in New Zealand.
Quote from Gunn :...and indicate by signalling the side the faster driver
should overtake on.

In the UK (highways) an indication usually displays the intended direction of the car indicating , I just cant get used to this other way

Respect forthought and vision (really important to me) makes for some great multi corner passing but cars should never make contact if possible and there are many lines through a corner/combination of corners and most in LFS have plenty of room for 2 or 3 cars

SD.
Quote from SparkyDave :In the UK (highways) an indication usually displays the intended direction of the car indicating , I just cant get used to this other way

its the female way to drive and race
so i guess that means all nz race drivers are pussies
#11 - Gunn
Quote from colcob :Thats a genius rule. Its nice to know that you arent allowed to drive over or under another car in New Zealand.

Not just NZ, you can find this identical Code Of Conduct on numerous FIA sanctioned racing series sites. I just happened to copy the text from a NZ motorsport site I was currently browsing and quoted the source of origin in this case.
How do people deal with the drivers who do try to barge through after turn-in?

If you try to leave room, you often end up way off line and loose a lot of time (or even end up off the track) - if you don't leave room, they hit you and you can loose more time or end up off the track?
Here's a good post by Gimpster on the subject.
From RSC

If any of you guys wanna see how it's done you should come watch me and LazerFX racing the XFG on Blackwood. We have been doing that quite a bit lately. Neither is very fast, but we are within 0.2 every lap, and NEVER give each other pause to breathe. A 5 lap race is exhausting, but huge fun! I'll save a replay of us going at it one day.

At the GURU servers we also encourage clean driving, and if any GURU is on track please feel free to ask for pointers, setups, tips and whatever else LFS related. Speaking for myself, I'll easily give up racing for a while to help a new guy get better. Usually I end up having close clean races with that same guy later in the evening. I've seen it so many times, and I hope other do the same courtesy.
I was shown the ropes back in early demo days by one of the greats of LFS, Sinbad. That one night has kept me in LFS since. There's no substitute for on-track experience!
Quote from MrGrumpy :How do people deal with the drivers who do try to barge through after turn-in?

If you try to leave room, you often end up way off line and loose a lot of time (or even end up off the track) - if you don't leave room, they hit you and you can loose more time or end up off the track?

Those are the easiest to dispose of, the trick is to actually give them more room rather than staying as close to the usual line as possible. Since they already braked late this means that they will invariably take a very early apex and will not be able to carry much speed out of the corner. To counter, let the kamikaze through on the inside, brake perhaps even a tad longer and go wider than usual on entry so that the other driver is already through, but then, after turning in, start accelerating earlier with a later apex than ideal. You will of course loose some time overall but will gain a much better exit speed, making the kamikaze driver an easy target on the straight after the corner, assuming that he or she will make the corner in the first place .
Standards and opinions over what is allowed and what isn't in LFS are wide and varied, therefore the only safe course of action when entering a corner near another car is to stop and chat about it first.

Last night did what I consider a legal & fair block (moved once, then returned to line) whilst defending my ailing lead from a faster driver behind - after the race he questioned it...

Later on I attempted a move I thought was going to be fair and had the door slammed on me causing us both to crash. On the replay there was this big 3D arrow pointing to my car with a big pink neon flashing sign saying, "it was her fault"... It felt OK at the time.

Sometimes, like on the chicane at SO1, if i'm side by side on the entry I sometimes give way even when i'm on the inside, othertimes when it isn't my line I give way but I do it late enough to force an error and nab the place as the other driver crashes... ...

The rules are clear, but they're writen in rubber .
If someone gets even a little inside or outside of me I ALWAYS give room, there is no point to contact, as it more than likely will end badly for one or both of us...

Having said that... often I will give room to the inside and hold my outside line only to be smacked into the wall on exit by the moron....

Its nice to come into a fast corner and watch some L337 dude dive for the inside as I stay wide and watch him slide on through +)
#17 - Goop
Some thoughts on blocking? (edit: to clarify, blocking in the sense that you may move to cover your line once)

It seems that is considered 'gentlemanly' (go easy Becky, it's just an expression) to let a faster driver thru.

I say, to hell with that - if you want my place then you will have to fight for it.

If I am faster than someone, the last thing I would want them to do is deliberately relinquish the spot that is rightfully theirs...
Quote from filur :Easy to see your point, but i really disagree.

Many corners don't allow side-by-side traffic, anyone can "outbrake" into a tight corner on the inside, putting themselves basically onto the inner curb with 90% of the turning still left to do, the driver on the outside would basically need to stop and just let the "outbraking genius" get thru.

All corners allow side by side, it's just that in some outside line is quite fast and in some not so fast. And in case you mention: why stop? You leave him 1 car width from inside curb and that's it (until apex). If he hits you, it's his fault. If he takes inside line then he must stick to it, not slide out because he misjudged braking. And anyway: he brake too late, you let him slide out and resume your place in front ...

And "blocking" on the straighjt: in my opinion only 1 move should be alloowed, so if you move off line to cover an overtaking move you shold not be allowed to return to racing line. Once you start moving (for example) left, you should not be allowed bo move back right. Then drvers would think twice before moving all the way inside to block overtaking, cause id would mean that they need to strart the turn from inside edge of the track, and we all know what that means.
Too easy to punt someone 'accidentally'. I never block, though on the last lap I will keep more to the inside.

In a league situation fine, in public races blocking just might earn you an early trip into the wall.
Quote from lucky :All corners allow side by side, it's just that in some outside line is quite fast and in some not so fast. And in case you mention: why stop? You leave him 1 car width from inside curb and that's it (until apex). If he hits you, it's his fault. If he takes inside line then he must stick to it, not slide out because he misjudged braking. And anyway: he brake too late, you let him slide out and resume your place in front ...

And in the corners where the outside line is "not-so-fast", slowing down enough to allow side-by-side traffic can render the inner line faster, so you're basically just letting a car pass (which, in my view, had not even started overtaking in the first place). Your philosophy seems to allow blatant cutting of someone's line, and suggesting the driver being cut off should just leave room because that's somehow safe and fun racing.

I'd say having simple prerequisites to when two drivers are supposed to organize taking a corner side by side, when to yield etc. is alot safer.
Quote :And "blocking" on the straighjt: in my opinion only 1 move should be alloowed, so if you move off line to cover an overtaking move you shold not be allowed to return to racing line. Once you start moving (for example) left, you should not be allowed bo move back right.

Fully agree.
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
Well, considering how it's not exactly easy to start scanning all around your car using side views when you are trying to corner
with a full grid of cars surrounding you, i always try to maintain my line and give room where ever i know there are cars, whether
i see them or not. I know some find their official pb VERY important and all, but it's not like we are racing for money here. In open
wheel racing, it takes very little to end your race...

My problem is i often get 'cut' as someone often feels he owns the whole tracks and just NEEDS to end his curve pushing me on the
outer wall. I mean, after a few laps, once you have a good idea who's where and who's faster, it's much easier to give way once in
a corner, but at T1 on the first lap, i found it a bit frustrating the other day racing with 12-13 other FOX on South City. I ended up
letting everyone pass me and just try to last the race, funny thing is i ended up finishing top 2 in about 4 out of 5 races, the 5th i
was simply crashed into (me and another fellow actually) before we even got to turn one of the first lap by someone apparently
thinking he's alone and swerving unconsciously to 'prepare' for T1. Oh yeah, and it was our fault, of course it was...illepall

Seriously, i was a good 2 second off pace on most people there yet i managed to finish 1st on one occasion and 2nd on most of the
other races as no one seemed to manage to make 8 laps without crashing each other. That chicane being the most frustrating since
even if you give way to the guy beside you, the one behind him won't let you pass either and you end up crashing and if you are
unlucky, you end up crashing a few others with you. Again, that MUST be your fault, you should have somehow managed to
completely stop your car and let everyone through and then go on your merry way....Needless to say i was glad when the server
switched to reverse grid starting positions.

So, what is it, a demolition derby or an endurance ? It SHOULD be a race, but i rarely see those and have much more success going
for endurance and simply trying to outlast most people out there. Rules or no rules, once in a race, most people seem to make up
their own along the way anyways and it's always easier to blame others.
Quote from MAGGOT :Quite frankly, I don't think anyone is 'entitled' to a line. If a car is coming up on your inside, and actually is even slightly at your side you should go wide to give them room to prevent a crash. If the one infront is 3/4 car lenght further ahead, and expects the line then they will most likely turn into the trailing car, causing an accident. The way I see it, just don't hit another car and all is well.

Also, Don't make repeated blocking attempts on the straights. I believe in one or more american based series (I believe specifically the Formula Atlantics?) There is a rule that you can cross the track once in a block-like attempt, but after than, you can not cross back to block if the other driver crosses back. The first blocking move is legal, additional ones are not.

This is how I believe that is how it should be handled anyways.

MAGGOT

Exactly my thoughts...
Alot of people on lfs do not seem to no what a racing line is! So when u go to over take some 1 on a corner inside line they tend to try and cut u of by hitting you, not my idea of racing to take people out fair and fun as long as poeple no what a racing line is. and how to race cleanly. Not that imperfect all the time. Making mistake is the best form for learning.illepall
i get terribly annoyed with idiots who decide to smash into the rear of me when i cleanly overtake them :\
Quote from filur :And in the corners where the outside line is "not-so-fast", slowing down enough to allow side-by-side traffic can render the inner line faster, so you're basically just letting a car pass (which, in my view, had not even started overtaking in the first place). Your philosophy seems to allow blatant cutting of someone's line, and suggesting the driver being cut off should just leave room because that's somehow safe and fun racing.

Dont be too slow so noone will cahtch you
Seriously: if you cinsider that on the outside you can go to edge of track on exit, but inside guy cant (bacause he has to leave space for you) and has to astrat corner from inside, you'll see that there are wery few corners like you described. And if it happens, it happen - or would you like to crash to prve your point? Cause I'd be on the inside if you like it or not ... And since when do you have to slow down more for outside line? Ususally your speed on outside is higher (go try on oval, if nothing else), but distance is longer ...
And what cutting of yre you dreaming about? There's no someone's line (you did not buy the racetrack, did you) so when there's more tha 1 driver going for same piece of track, they both (or all) better know how to share it,m otherwise they'll crash - which is bad for all of them.
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Clean Overtaking Education
(31 posts, started )
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