Hi,

I see that the XR GT is still slower than the XF GTi in this patch and the GT Turbo is still slower than the FXO and the XR GTR is still slower than the FZ GTR... I also notice that the XR GT is slower through corners than the GTi by atleast a few kph... My suggestion is that this is down to the current suspension setup on the car and perhaps changing it slightly will make these cars properly competetive with their rivals whilst more fun to drive. Perhaps this could be looked at? What do you guys think?

i for one think it's unreal that any FWD in the same class as a RWD is faster... RWD will allways own FWD on strights and turns, but in LFS theres all most 0 understeer form the FWD's so the thing that makes RWD faster no longger matters. i think the FWDs need to understeer more. they have the RWD's about right now but the FWDs dont understeer as much as they need to.

well, they certianly understeer more now than they used to (look at the second chicane at BL1 if you want to see it, first time on the new patch i tried it and smashed right into the tyres (AND its one of my fave corners!)

Indeed, I NEVER found FWD Understeer in LFS to be lacking in the slightest actually. The problem is not the drivetrain, it's the weight and output of the cars. Sure, if you had the EXACT same car, one in FWD, one in RWD, theoretically the RWD would be faster (although it would weight more and have more rotational mass etc..). The FXO and XRT are not the same car though. Also, think of how much less a real XFI would weight than a real XRG. That's pretty significant for cornering.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Dunno... Was racing the XR GT and XF GTi... I think on Mercury's team server last night, and two of the Mercury guys (sidi and someone else, I forget) at the front looked very evenly matched with one in the GT and one in the GTi.

The BLGP WRs are very close right now, and the XR is faster. Same at SO Classic, Westhill, others.

Ah, research: an excellent idea.

So there you go. then.

EDIT: 500 units of spam successfully dished out to this forum YAY... ahem....

The GTi/GT problem seems sorted... the GTT/FXO problem is still there (although we shall see if it gets better further down the line)... don't think the XR GTR can keep up with the FZ GTR though...

Yes we saw that at the 24h race of Kyoto, the fastest XRR was 14 laps behind our winning ZT FZR.... rofl

Quote from DownShift :

i for one think it's unreal that any FWD in the same class as a RWD is faster... RWD will allways own FWD on strights and turns, but in LFS theres all most 0 understeer form the FWD's so the thing that makes RWD faster no longger matters. i think the FWDs need to understeer more. they have the RWD's about right now but the FWDs dont understeer as much as they need to.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because a car is RWD does NOT mean it will be faster than a similar car that has FWD. Please STOP this now. It depends on on so many factors from car gemoetry, engine power curves, CG, tire sizes, weight, setup etc etc.

Just saying that RWD is better on the straight for the power levels of cars you are talking about is just rubbish. You just have to look at various Touring Car events around the world that have mixed RWD and FWD to know your statement is JUST FALSE.

BTW a while back in RSC, someone posted about some tests that put various cars through a slalom course in the US. The car that got through the FASTEST was a stock BWM Mini Cooper (FWD 110bhp). The real piece of interest here is that the other cars in question were the likes of 911's, Dodge vipers and many other "super cars".

@Woz: Having a 500-1000 lb weight advantage helps a lot on a slalom.

Regardless of what you think, FWD is slower around a track than RWD given the same weight and power. Just look at how much lighter the FXO has to be compared to the XRT in order to be competative, or how light the GTi has to be.

As for the touring cars, don't the RWD cars get a huge weight penalty?

With a driver and full tank of gas in the car (some may say this is an unfair comparison since the GT has a bigger fuel tank, but also consider it uses more fuel), the GTi weighs 82.3% of the weight of the GT, and makes 82.14% of the power. This results in a relatively equal class. The GTi is faster on the tight twisty tracks where it can exploit its weight advantage, while the GT is faster on the more flowing ones where it can exploit its extra power.

Meanwhile, the FXO weighs 93.84% of the weight of the GTT, and makes 94.74% of the power. This results in the FXO being faster everywhere.

For Argument purposes suppose a RWD and FWD have the same weight, power, tires, ect. The RWD will come out of the corner faster because of weight transfer creates more available traction. While a FWD will have less, making the FWD slower on corner exit

Quote from thisnameistaken :

WOO! :laola:

I was eating crisps, and I thought I'd finished them but I just found a bit of crisp on my lap and got so excited I spilled my beer on myself trying to get it.

Good to see my sarcasm meter still works

Try not to waste beer like that anymore though.

Quote from Viper93 :

For Argument purposes suppose a RWD and FWD have the same weight, power, tires, ect. The RWD will come out of the corner faster because of weight transfer creates more available traction. While a FWD will have less, making the FWD slower on corner exit

Only if the there is enough force going through the front wheels to be limited by traction.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Only if the there is enough force going through the front wheels to be limited by traction.

Yes, thats when the RWD will be faster, when your going balls to the walls and going at the grip limit of the tires, otherwise they would run the same speeds before then.

*edit* also because both your cornering and your power output are coming off the same set of tires the fronts will heat up more than the RWD causing you to have to be easier on the gas causing slower times. I am no engineer so please tell me if I am wrong, but with the physics classes I have had this makes sense. But then when does physics make sense =P

Quote from axus :

The GTi/GT problem seems sorted... the GTT/FXO problem is still there (although we shall see if it gets better further down the line)... don't think the XR GTR can keep up with the FZ GTR though...

if you are a freak and good at drafting you can keep up with the fzs... i just broke into the 43 second range with the XRR

Quote from Forbin :

@Woz: Having a 500-1000 lb weight advantage helps a lot on a slalom.
....
Regardless of what you think, FWD is slower around a track than RWD given the same weight and power. Just look at how much lighter the FXO has to be compared to the XRT in order to be competative, or how light the GTi has to be.

Yep, I was just trying to highlight that RWD on its own will NOT make a car faster then FWD, there are MANY MANY other factors to take into account. The geometry, suspension setup, CG, drag, tires..... the list is endless even the type of track can effect which will win.

Below about 200-250 bhp is a close call between FWD and RWD of same power and weight its only above that where it becomes a problem getting the power through the front wheels and that is when RWD is the only way to go.

Quote from DownShift :

i for one think it's unreal that any FWD in the same class as a RWD is faster... RWD will allways own FWD on strights and turns, but in LFS theres all most 0 understeer form the FWD's so the thing that makes RWD faster no longger matters. i think the FWDs need to understeer more. they have the RWD's about right now but the FWDs dont understeer as much as they need to.

Except that you are wrong on some important counts.

On BLGP, for instance, when the longest straight has an entry speed far higher than the speed at which the FWD or RWD slow-cars are traction limited, the FWD car will be faster with all other things equal. It weighs less and has smaller drivetrain losses.

The FWD cars will understeer like pigs if you set them up like some typical crappy American road car. Go ahead and try reducing damping to near the minimum, then reduce the rear spring rate to practically nothing and then triple that figure for the front spring rate. Oh, and either no rear anti roll or very little, but a big fat front anti-roll bar. More rear than front camber. Barely any caster. The list goes on.

Set a car up like that in LFS, and it will understeer like a pig. Set a car up in LFS like you would to run it around a track in real life, and it will be far more balanced.

An FWD vs RWD car,using exact same chassis (thought its not possible) having same power etc, everything the same, except for the traction layout, the RWD one will be slightly heavyer due to its extra parts to transfer power to the rear.

RWD basics advantages that i know are, the better handling on corners,mainly tigheter nes, when the FWD would be showing understeer,at the same point the RWD one would be turning in to out quite faster due to its better balance/more use of the rear to help turning the car, and more traction during aceleration due to weight transition, since weight is transfered to the back of the car while acelerating,and more balanced wear of tires. (i wont talk about advanced stuff since its not needed to)

RWD basics disavantages that i know are,some loss of power due to the extra parts to transmit the power to the rear axle, and all the extra parts and weight at the rear.

All things considered, setup is still paramount. I think the only way around this is to give the XRT a wee tad more omph so that the cars have different strenghts to exploit on the track, and it should all come out in the wash. Don't touch the FX0, just give the XRT 5-10 more HP than it has.

Shouldn't a RWD be faster in turns than a FWD, even if it weights a bit more, due to its better weight distribution? (i.e. closer to 50/50)

Too many other things to consider to make a blanket statement like that. So: maybe but not necessarily.

Quote from Nick_ll :

Shouldn't a RWD be faster in turns than a FWD, even if it weights a bit more, due to its better weight distribution? (i.e. closer to 50/50)

If you knew how to exactly work out the load sensitivity of the tyres, and assume everything else exactly equal, you could work it out mathematically.

Wearing the same rubber, both the MRT5 and FZR brake much better (at low speeds) than the XFR. MRT5 is expected - it is lighter. But FZR is heavier - shows how useful keep the weight at the rear is for braking.
Just an example that is easier to test.

Quote from Nick_ll :

Shouldn't a RWD be faster in turns than a FWD, even if it weights a bit more, due to its better weight distribution? (i.e. closer to 50/50)

Despite what auto magazines repeat ad nauseum, 50/50 is not the perfect weight distribution. The "perfect" weight distribution very much depends on a bunch of other factors, and indeed a FWD car well setup and designed will always have more than 50 percent of the weight on the front wheels.

At the same time, mid engine RWD vehicles should always have a good bit more than 50% on the rear wheels.

RWD has a lot of important advantages for sure. However, some of those advantages are academic when you have a very sedate power to weight ratio.