thats exactly what i thought, they would class it as a clean pass if it had been the other way round aswell
Poll : Should James Nash have had his BTCC win taken away from him?
No
30
Don't care
18
Yes
13
thats exactly what i thought, they would class it as a clean pass if it had been the other way round aswell
Nash was clearly at fault, he jinxed left into Collard, whether Collards move was acceptable or not is a different matter, it did not cause this accident. Given that Nash had already made contact with Collard in the Esses he really should have held back a bit and not taken him out whether deliberate or not. I think a disqualification is reasonable for this although penalties aren't handed out fairly or regularly enough. I think there should be clear rules for high contact series like the BTCC that if contact is made with another car a pass cannot be made until the next corner, the first bit of contact was completely Nashes fault and probably meant Collard was coming out the corner slower and off line.
Thats the type of stupid rule that makes racing end up crap.
Its like "oh you go first, no you, no you go first, oh ok then".
Just let them race as they do at the moment, just make it clear that if you do stuff like Nash did then there WILL definately or definately NOT be punishment. Its just too all over the place at the moment. And that everyone gets equal punishment, not the new guys out there get treated worse than the old timers like Plato, Collard or Neal.
It's already clear what is and is not allowed, but the stewards seem to punish the small accidental contacts that result in big crashes rather than the big deliberate ones used to gain a position.
The racing would be far better if there wasn't contact in the first place, with such rules in place Nash would be far less likely to 'accidentally' nudge Collard wide knowing that he'd be forfeiting his right to pass. If you can't trust other racers then you can't race close in the first place.
so i gather you've not watched BTCC from the early ninties to now then? contact has been part of touring car racing since the super touring era, its not gonna go away.
But, I've seen so many fantastic races where contact has only been made as a result of an overtaking maneuvre, not to create an overtaking maneuvre. That's where the rules should be clear (they may already be). If contact results in a pass, it's not technically fair racecraft. However, if a car overtaking is already ahead and contact is made as a side-effect, that's ok in my book.
I think one small nudge is acceptable but no a proper whack, and as you say if the cars scrape as they go by each other and it doesnt effect anyone then that is alright.
Nash was the cause of the situation because of his nudging and hitting in the previous, but not the culprit in the final event.
You always get that effect, you even see it frequently in LFS. Nash steers left because a car (Collard) is about to take them both to the right, so he instinctively counter-acts it and "jinks" left as a result.
The defensive move was made too late. In isolation that incident would be cut and dry Collard's fault, imagine it halfway along the s/f straight, but given the attitude of Nash's driving it's easy to see why the finger was pointed at him. If a following driver is expected to lift in those situations we'd never see a single overtake and the late block/balk would rule.
In my opinion, contact isn't needed to make the racing entertaining. If they were constantly only centrimetres away from each other but never touched it would be just as exhilerating to watch.
The worst example I've seen is Matt Neal at Brands, almost every time he was behind someone he'd wait until the entry to Clearways, give them a little tap to make them run wide then slide up the inside. He must have done this 4 or 5 times and that's not racing, that's ramming. A driver with good racecraft would work out a way to get around the other guy without touching, not go through him.
The worst example I've seen is Matt Neal at Brands, almost every time he was behind someone he'd wait until the entry to Clearways, give them a little tap to make them run wide then slide up the inside. He must have done this 4 or 5 times and that's not racing, that's ramming. A driver with good racecraft would work out a way to get around the other guy without touching, not go through him.
I remember that; it really irritated me that he got away with it without any kind of warning; it was totally unfair on all the drivers he passed.
Says the person with 'Rubbing is racing' in their sig.
But yeah I agree with you. A bit of bumping is ok if it was'nt intended, just the result of really close racing, but deliberate bumping is different.
Matt Neal has used that tap and pass at clearways since 1995, maybe even 1996 so they wont do anything because its a move that not just him but a few other drivers have done over the years aswell. If they dont like it tough. Also a lot of the driver's he has done it to have picked up on it, like Giovanardi, he's done it, others he's done it to havent really picked up on it which im surprised about because normally one driver does it so they all end up doing it.
Unfortunately touring car racing has gradually degraded itself into a semi-contact nudge and spin formula to appeal to the general public, the racing was initially exciting and marred by the odd bit of bad driving and gradually became worse, any true competition between works teams, the respected drivers and true enthusiasts left and it all went downhill.
Supertourers are more exciting and just as spectacular to watch when they race cleanly, which I've only seen happen in club racing where drivers know they can't afford to treat them like banger racers.
Contact is not a side effect of a clean pass. If contact is made it means without exceptional circumstances then it normally means at least one driver misjudged the situation. If you are racing in a non-contact environment then non-contact must mean exactly that, drivers should be going to lengths to avoid contact not just letting it happen because they know they can get away with it. The minute you allow contact to creep in you start having issues with what drivers expect each other to do and can no longer race with the knowledge that those around them will play fairly.
There is also the issue of safety, touring cars and racing circuits may be relatively safe but the speeds involved are still high, they're often racing wheel to wheel at (and making contact at) speeds of over 100mph. Race tracks are not designed with run off for cars being launched off the track at silly places resulting from contact. A big accident has been on the cards for a while now in touring car racing, a high speed T bone into a driver side door is just a ticking time bomb and as soon as it happens, as a result of deliberate contact there will be all manner of shake ups and lawsuits.
There's no such thing as a small nudge on your rear quarter at 130mph...
Yea, Collard is a wrecker, he obviously knew his race was over, final race of the day and just wanted to take someone out. He clearly wasn't on his brakes after he skidded across the grass because his wheels weren't locked, they were spinning freely. I voted no because I don't think Collard gave Nash any room, he tried to shut the door but obviously misjudged where Nash was and ended up getting shunted. He clearly should of been on the brakes tho when he was coming back across the track and for that clear-cut sign of an intentional wreck, I think (even if Nash rammed him) that Nash shouldn't be DQ'd.
EDIT : And about Rob Collard being injured, he's a liar, either way, Nash and Collards contact was not the cause of Rob's "injuries". The cause of his "hospitalization" was hitting Jelley and Rob could of avoided hitting Jelley by being on the brakes instead of letting it coast back on track like a complete idiot. So what if Nash gave a couple of nudges, Collard deserves it cos he's a grade A wrecker. Sure, it's not good racecraft, but when you nudge a guy off when it's his own fault for shutting the door and he intentionally wrecks other people to try and get the race red flagged then you aren't gonna feel too happy about people investigating your taps on a guys back end (yes the pun was intended) before the incident happened. I know I don't drive like that on LFS, if you nudged someone to gain an advantage then it's poor racecraft and in a league you'd surely be penalized but generally leagues are run by people who are racing in the series. Most popular motor-racing is governed by people who AREN'T racing in the series, therefore their judgement is somewhat kaleidoscopic.
I don't think you can say that Collard intentionally let his car roll back on track to ruin someone's day. I know he's a dirty driver normally but he wouldn't purposefully position his car broadside in the middle of the track, ready and waiting to be t-boned by someone else and risk serious injury. It's impossible to tell from the replays if / how much he was braking. Maybe his wheels weren't locked, but perhaps he was just modulating the brake pedal enough to keep the wheels turning as locked wheels on grass offer pretty little resistance.
Well look at it, he was on the brakes in the onboard shot, his brakes were locked, any racer knows if you are sliding back on track and you know it's going to happen, you'll get on your brakes to at least SHOW you tried to avoid it, in an LFS race you'd try to recover yourself but primarily you try to make sure you're not converging back on the track as much as you can, he wasn't travelling that fast on the grass either, by the time he hit the tarmac he could of easily stopped. If it's not an intentional wreck, then what is it? Bannable behaviour either way in my opinion, that crash could of been avoided by Collard.
EDIT : looking at the incident again, I'll give more credit for Collard since he was carrying more speed onthe grass than I first thought, but hes not braking ON the tarmac, and hes going backwards with his wheel turned full right lock, sure, you can't slow down that fast on grass, but you can certainly stop at about 30mph on tarmac within a fewmeters and even if it would of taken a longer distance than that, he could of kept the wheel straight and kept out of everyones way. Looks more like he's just an idiot than an intentional wreck, but I can't help thinking he did it so he can milk the claims about his broken ribs that Nash actually, DIDN'T cause, Collard could of avoided his 'injuries' and that isn't Nash's fault at all, regardless of anyones take on the crash. Collard just didn't do enough to get out of everyones way (for me) I mean, in his situation what would you rather do? Sit at the apex stationary, reverse slightly around the apex (in the event that a complete stop was impossible or drift across the track backwards?
EDIT 2: Viewing the video AGAIN, as Collard rejoins the track(travelling backwards), you can here the revs raise as if he's dumped the clutch as the car gets back on the tarmac. He's clearly not on the brakes and made no good effort to avoid a crash he was off the brakes, plus he was still on maximum right-hand lock as he rejoined the track. What a prick. He should be banned from racing.
EDIT 3(holy mother of god): On board from Turkington, it looks like Nash did act a BIT maliciously but as someone else said, if he didn't turn left and push Collard out of the way, he probobly would of followed Collard off to the right which is a mis-judgement from both racers but he probobly doesn't like Collard, but then again, who does? He's nothing but a wrecker.
Did i say anything about nudging the rear quarter while doing 130mph? no.
Blueflame, I still can't see how a driver would willingly want to be crashed into. Collard will probably have to pay for that damage to his car and he would have known that, and that alone would stop most people from wanting to crash. The replay onboard Collard's car, you can't really hear the revs rise when he gets back on track, but if they do then perhaps he was thinking that he'd be able to spin all the way round 360 degrees and get back going on track again without losing too much time.
He had full right hand lock, if he'd have done a 360 he would of drove into the track and caused another crash, the point he dumped the clutch there was still cars coming his way!!! Why are his wheels freely rotating when he's on the tarmac? He's either a pillock, or a wrecker. Eitherway, he probobly gets money from sponsors and it was the last race of the day and I don't even think Airwaves is his team (tho he has had teams in btcc in the past)
Second time you used the word wrecker. Confusing real life and LFS?
That's the difference you see, in real life coming back onto the race track in front of fast moving heavy objects is extremely dangerous, which I'm sure he was all too aware of as he slide backwards/sideways into on coming traffic.
A wrecker is a joke term. If someone wrecks in a race, they wreck, makes no difference for real life or a game. A shunt is a shunt, a win is a win, a championship is a championship, we don't reserve special names for LFS and real racing.
At the speeds they are driving at and the fact that the cars are close to the limit most of the time there is no such thing as "one small nudge", and all the racers in that series know it. To my mind Nash was clearly continously nudging in order to unbalance the car in front. That's not sporting behaviour IMO. Taken "in context" of what else was happening, (which the stewards most likely did), I think a DQ was fairer than any fine.
The only thing that you can do to prevent unsporting behaviour is to directly penalise it where it really counts and that is the championship itself. Fines don't change driver behavior. If they're still allowed to win the championship in the end, they'll see it as an acceptable cost.
Only thing I'll say to that tirade is...
Ever tried braking on a downhill bank of grass after loosing control at over 100mph??
No didn't think so.
Where he ended up had very little to do with what he did with any of the controls of the car. Once shunted and on the grass he was in the lap of the gods as to where he stopped.
At very high speeds you can nudge a car into a spin without even touching it due to aerodynamic forces, has to be very high speed though, superspeedway territory.
Collard was also sliding sideways across the grass, brakes aren't very effective when you're moving sideways because the tyres have broken traction anyway. You'd also be suprised how slippey grass is when its even the tiniest bit damp (which it is most of the time).
Then his front wheels touched the tarmac, which is what caused the back end of his car to swing into the path of oncoming cars.
Collard was also sliding sideways across the grass, brakes aren't very effective when you're moving sideways because the tyres have broken traction anyway. You'd also be suprised how slippey grass is when its even the tiniest bit damp (which it is most of the time).
Then his front wheels touched the tarmac, which is what caused the back end of his car to swing into the path of oncoming cars.
Should James Nash have has his BTCC win taken away?
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