It's the black Lady GaGa
It was inevitable that someone would say that eventually.
lol yh same, i heard about this on the radio today and wtought wtf but now i see the pics i can see were there coming from lol, still i dont really see why it is onna takethat long t0 find out lol
The IAFF can have all the rules they like but when the competition is held in Europe then European law grants transexuals the right to compete in sports of their acquired gender once surgeries are complete.
The regulation then goes onto give a very grey get out clause "provided they have no physical advantage derived from their original gender". Although in practice any strength or testosterone derrived advantage is negated in around 3 months, in reality this is the backdoor for the prejudicial "we dont want him/her/it competing with us".
Therefor whatever the cromosone testing reveals is a bit irrellevent.
If you are looking for correct terms, then they are
post-op: no distinctive term
pre-op: transexual
Once post-op and officially recognised in their acquired gender a transexual is then officially recognised as their new gender, therefor, no term is needed. If you feel you need a term, then what you are feeling is the desire to label something so that you can hold it up as different, other examples of labels include: n****; jew; gay; and chav.
In the 12th century a French physicial did a study of gender and concluded that a persons gender could be derrived from their genitalia. Despite the overwhelming evidence of the contrary, such as intersexed individuals - which, owing to the later adoption of the IMC of this white paper surgeons then became the deciding factor of sex for intersexed babies, often by taking a best guess.
Luckily the world has moved beyond that, atleast officially at the IMC, if not yet in society...
Seriously, you trust the conclusions of a 12th century Frenchman?
Well she quite possibly does have a high level of testosterone, it may be because of a condition, it may just be the lot nature dealt for her. Or it could be that she's been abusing anabolic steroids for years, or maybe she's just one damned butch dyke.
In any case, I think that cromozone testing is just outright wrong and a disgrace to athletics, the competition is in Berlin so it is subject to European law anyway, so what's the issue. Dope test her for sure, because lets face it, the photographic evidence does suggest some anabolic steroids have been used.
Having said that, i'm not exactly femme myself and i've never touched steroids...
I am however a butch dyke.
So it's not as easy as I thought it was?
You can easily tell I'm not an expert on this subject. Never mind my earlier post
Complex Answer
Actually it really isn't straight forward, nature is very sloppy. Ignoring the whole subject of intersexed persons (previously known as hermaphrodites) each of us possess both male and female traits.
Take for example some classic stand up gender based comedy routines, women stop for directions, women can't read maps etc. Well, that's a gender trait sure - but it's not true of all women and it's true of some men.
Gender is a matrix of abilities where ones physical sex influences our position on any given point on the matrix, but does not define it.
Generally speaking there is an 80% overlap on all aspects of personality, identity and sexuality for the genders. ie: Women have higher pitched voices, but in reality many women have voices deeper than most men, statistically, the deepest 10% of voices are male and the highest 10% of voices are female (with the odd Caster Semenya in the mix to prove the stats wrong).
All aspects of gender and gender identity are mixed up in this way, so really, the only true definition of gender is how we see ourselves. Consequently, in the case of transexuals and intersexed persons, gender idetntiy can be incongruent with physical gender characteristics, such as genitalia.
Simple answer
My girlfriend has way bigger boobs than me and yet is way more butch.
this may be true if you dont work out but for whichever reason she obviously has (had) a lot more testosterone in her blood at some point and it still shows since muscles dont just disappear if you work out as much as anybody at the top of a sport as well and long established as running
In persuit of finding a conclusive time epoch for you I found this:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M ... resq#Transexuality_issues
Was watching TV, and they had a short interview with her(?). She(?) looks, talks, walks and acts like a guy! I just don't believe it's a guy, or something must went wrong when she(?) was made...
The issue that Shotglass touched upon in his post is the nub of the problem here. An athelete doesn't become instantly faster or jump further simply by taking these drugs etc. Rather, they enable them to push the body longer and harder during training, therefore increasing muscle mass, stamina and overall fitness levels far moreso than those atheletes who do it clean. But when the drugs are no longer in their system they will still benefit from this overall performance increase gained whilst on the drugs (or even when they were once a bloke), it doesn't just disappear overnight. Granted different drugs produce different results whether they be natural or man-made. But if you have something either in your body or on your body that gives you an unfair advantage over your competitors, and, if it's against the rules, then it's quite obviously cheating and cheating should be exposed.
It's my personal opinion that this 2 year ban thing isn't doing sport any favours. In my opinion it should be a lifetime ban on the first offence, and any prize money won whilst taking drugs should be returned. Granted this situation with this lassy is different, but to my eye there's something a bit fishy with the whole story. If she's genuine then no probs, and it's a bit of a shame she's being dragged through all this crap. But if she is a ringer, then she and the SA authorities deserves all the bitch slapping they get.
I'm really surprised by that Wiki page you linked to, guess it shows how much times have changed. 20 yrs ago she would have been banned from all competition for life, but nowadays, anything goes. It makes you wonder how successful she'd have been had the change been the other way round.
wow becky you seem to know alot about this...
another thing that wiki article doesnt touch upon is when she started hormone therapy and when she started training for the sport both of which have a major impact on muscle development
also the article mentions that she was open about the subject which implies to me that she never tried to compete without giving sport governing bodies ample chance to decide on the legitimacy of her entry which clearly isnt the case with semenya
also the article mentions that she was open about the subject which implies to me that she never tried to compete without giving sport governing bodies ample chance to decide on the legitimacy of her entry which clearly isnt the case with semenya
I'm relatively well informed on gender science. I'm well informed on a lot of things, I snort up knowledge like a crack addict getting her first high of the day.
I'm on my phone so I'm not able to quote the part of Mazz's post that I would like, but in responce to the point of advantages gained when once a man persisting, I think there is two problems here.
Firstly in top level sports many women have high levels of testosterone anyway, I mean, anyone here ever fancy Fattima Whitbread? I suspect not...
Secondly, any advantage is surely lost by the months of recovery from major surgery and years on hormones.
I've had a big operation myself where I was just 4 hours under anaesthetic and even now a year and half on I'm still not as fit as I was, an athletes competetive life is short, loosing 2 years hardly seems conductive to top flight performance to me.
I really don't think it would help, and the IOC appears to agree.
it's in the first paragraph, she descovered the sport 6 years after surgery and much longer on hormones.
we should make them wear armbands?
Once through surgery they're no longer medical cases, they're either male or female, so what is the issue? Other than the IOC requirement for 2 years to pass for any advantage to have faded.
good point but one thing ive notice on myself is that its a lot easier to regain muscle mass you once had than it is to build it in the first place
i rather suspect lower levels of testosteron dont have a gigantic impact on this tendency of muscles to rebuild themself easily
either way assuming she is xy its hard to deny that the testosterone has had a profound effect on her physique after seeing the pics
I don't have the answers to that, nothing scientific anyway.
this is a very good point, I've met a few trans girls Semenya's age in gay bars and they all looked more femme than her, but the film clip linked in the OP did basically say she was transexual or intersexed (in big bold between the lines type) just didn't say specifically what.
The tests they where talking about in the film are whether she gets an unfair advantage from it, not karyotype testing most of this thread seems to be assuming.
/end opinion
doesnt mention whether she started before puberty though which is pretty much the factor here
please dont pull this sort of thing on me youre better than to use godwin like that
1) giving the ioc a notice that the 2 years have actually passed before the competition
2) people and sports govement bodies will be a lot more amiable if they dont get the feeling youre trying to mess with them by witholding information on things that may give you an unfair advantage
the one with johnson? didnt get that from it but maybe i missed another video somewhere
i must have watched a different video apparently
either way what im getting from that bbc article is that they will do some kind of gender verification test whatever that is exactly
also to bring up another topic the bbc article stated that she is 18 so again assuming that she is xy that would mean that shed have to have had surgery at the age of 16 or younger which to my knowledge is extremely uncommon and presumably even more so in south africa
I've met Fattima Whitbread, and she's actually really nice. Not a pretty girl and no i didn't fancy her, but she's got/had a nice pleasant personality, easy to talk to and generous with her time.
Having said that, i was and still am certain she was on something back then, but she simply never got caught. Back in those days drug testing was still in it's infancy, Remember Florence Griffiths Joiner ? defo drug cheat, never got caught despite numerous tests.
I'm not a medical expert, but i can assure you having a high level of fitness before an operation definitely improves your powers and speed of recovery. And any drop in performance will be large down to a lack of training whilst resting. And i'm not sure how having yer nads lopped off would make you run or cycle any slower, may actually be an advantage, more freedom, less baggage, less chance of going cross eyed should you hit yer privates on the handlebars.
Not got a clue about the hormone side of things, don't know how they effect the body with regards to strength or stamina ? so can't really comment.
I can give you lists of those whove been out of action for 2 or more years due to suspension or illness, but who've come back much stronger, faster, and better. Lance Armstrong is probably the most well known example.
And just because the IOC has sanctioned something doesn't mean it's necessarily in the sports best interests. By their very nature they're politicians, so various deal have to be made to appease very powerful sporting factions.
And it's scientific fact that bones grow back stronger once they've been broken, muscles too. Infact thats how you increase muscle mass, by ripping your existing muscles, then protiens in your body fill the gaps with more muscle.
What this has to do with this lassies gender i've no idea ?
Yes thats true, i've no idea why, but it is true. Perhaps its psychological ? When you've done something once you know you can do it again. But on the other hand if it is purely physical, then perhaps HRT can reduce this effect, i dunno ? it's a mystery ?
I know someone who is allergic to estrogen, who is female, and she knows a guy that has so much testosterone in his body that he has to take some kind of medicine to control it otherwise it could kill him. The human body is extremely wierd, it wouldn't suprise me if this woman just had high levels of testosterone.
its the longlost twinshister of ladygaga
Surely if she has a willy all they have to do is see if she can jizz 
/immature
I think it's disgraceful the way the IAAF are handling all this. It should be kept private and out of the public eye until something can be confirmed. You feel kinda sorry for the girl though for what she is going through.
/immature
I think it's disgraceful the way the IAAF are handling all this. It should be kept private and out of the public eye until something can be confirmed. You feel kinda sorry for the girl though for what she is going through.
I'm not sure I understand your intended meening here, it reads as if you believe a person who transitions their gender after puberty should not be allowed to compete in sports?
It was a very serious point, Samenya is clearly dealing with the IAAF and from the video it's clear to me that they know about a medical condition and are doing tests. The fact that she hasn't blurted her life story out all over the Daily Mirror is beside the point - just because we do not know is no reason to judge her actions in an official capacity.
I tend to solve problems by starting with the answer (looking at it backwards), so when I watched that video I did it with two assumptions in mind, she had a transexual or intersexed condition and the IAAF where testing for advantages, and that she was born entirely female and being karyotyped. As I listened to what the guy said, I found myself of the view that she was not being karyotyped (it's not a complicated test that requires a panel of doctors, it's either 46XX, 46XY, a variant such as 46XXY or mosaicism), so it's my belief that the former case is true.
There was a story in the news earlier this year of a girl who had her surgery at 16, to my knowledge this was the youngest transexual operation in Western culture, there are younger in Asia, i'm really not informed on African culture toward gender though.
You've never had a major operation! I was fit, now i'm not! It really takes it out of you, suprisingly so. I was shocked, I was running out of breath walking 200 metres to the local shop a month after the operation, 3 months on and I was still noteably breathless, a year on and I still dont have the cardiovascular fitness that I did. I may not have been an athlete, but i've always been fit - I did do a lot of sports when I was younger and I lead a healthy lifestyle. I think you would be suprised just how much major surgery saps from you.
I understand the effects are far reaching both emotionally and physically.
He had cancer, he became emotionally stronger and he gained the determination to work harder physically. Most of the transexuals i've met have been emotionally wrecked and the last thing they want is to be butch and build up muscles
- I guess transsexuals and sport is a very complex issue.Please tell that to my ribs! lolz, I keep breaking the blighters. I'm not sure if there have been studies on whether such muscle memory persists in gross changes in body physique brought about by hormones though which is really what is being discussed here, and none of us have empirical data to support a supposition on that. It's this which the IAAF appear to be studying now.
Lady ZuLu
Is Caster Semenya man?
(106 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG