Quote from Furiously-Fast :

But seriously these wars have got to stop. Fanboys, just accept everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What you have just said is daft because you have clearly ignored what has already been said. By labelling people as fanboys, you are the one who is creating arguments between impatient people who want things NOW even if it is shit, and patient people who would rather see a proper job done.

This is one guy programming pretty much the entire game. A game that sure as hell beats the crap out of most games even created by a large workforce. You expect him to do a flawless job in a matter of weeks? Reality check here. It's amazing the amount of disrespect people show, and think it is alright to do so just because this is "only the internet".

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

What so he can't answer if its faster or slower?

Maybe he can't, maybe he doesn't want to. Who knows?

Quote from zeugnimod :

Maybe he can't, maybe he doesn't want to. Who knows?

Exactly my point.

The fact that a sim like LFS can generate such a complete polarisation of responses from an informative, reasoned and above all involved update report is, quite frankly, a credit to Scawen and the crew of Devs and beta testers. I can easily understand why big production and development houses loose interest in the constant bickering and nit picking that they reseive from half baked, middle intelligence numpty's who couldn't string a piece of code together if it was written out for them. Nothing in life is free. Nothing is given to you without someone somewhere having too foot the bill. Big publishers get that bill payed for by numpty's when they fork out 30-40 quid for some showy bit of graphical wizzadry that is played through in five minutes flat and then recieves no further updates. The little guys can't work like that. They survive by doing what they can and when they can, and when they feel they have a product that is worthy of being sold, then they will put a few quid price tag on it and hope poeple appreaciate the effort that is put into it. LFS has had a lead in time of years. And it's still in development. We are in the fortunate position of seeing a quite franky, astounding piece of programming being put together bit by bit, with the emphasis on being that if the foundations need to be redug, then they will be to make the final product even better.

By paying our money, for LFS, in my view, we are not neccesarily buying a kick arse race sim that is unrivalled in it's field. What we are buying into is a patronage of something that is not 'big' business. It's not grind house developing. It's not a glamour model, all big in the chest but short in the head. It's brains before beauty. It's intellgence before cras kowtowing to ignorant consumers who don't understand what they have on their desktops.

There is an ethos behind LFS that does not follow the received wisdom of game development. It's never been, and I hope it never will be, a purely commercial enterprise. Scawen is a bloke. A normal bloke with a family and a very understanding wife who has a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed. I have patronised him for the content that I already have. I fell in love with LFS not for the way it plays as much as the very fact that it has such a small development team that seem to be completly dedicated to making this racing sim we all know and love the best racing sim that has ever been made. I am sure the end game being that the LFS physics engine will be used for many years to come under licence. And in that, we can all say that we where there at the beginning. We watched and played as it was all put together. Our input, made this sim the way it will be.

For someone to say that we should model the devs in CSS and shoot them, is so abhorent that it defy's explanation. IT has no basis in reality, as the author of said comment proabably has no basis in reality. You do not deserve 'free' stuff. It is not a 'right' to recieve updates for free or in the time scale that you require. But it is the 'right' of the Devs to dictate how and when and for how much they release sections of their hard born work.

For those who feel that LFS's development is not keeping pace with your desires, then I urge you to spend some time developing your own Racing Sim so that you can prove your point. Maybe you can do it better, maybe you won't do it any worse, but my bet is, you can't do it at all. And that, at the end of the day, is all you buy of anything. You pay your money for something that you can't, or won't, do yourself. The devs are adults. And I know a good proportion of LFS lovers are of an adult and reasoned persuasion. I urge the flamers, the trolls and the down right rude and obnoxious to take a good look around and readdress some attitudes. Because if you share the attitudes that you have on here in Real Life then you won't be getting very far. For a start shooting people is generally considered a very bad thing and gets you a life stretch at her majesty's pleasure.

So, to end my monologue, I urge in you, alll of you from both sides of the coin to find some maturity, some understanding and less hostility. It will all come good in the end.

And to return to my first point. I think, I hope, the devs look at the passion they invoke from their drop in the software ocean as a kinda back handed compliment. I don't see quite as much vehmenence on Eve's boards. (actually, maybe I do. Hehe).

Nuf sed. Keep up the good work boys.

Quote from Victor :

So we can only ask for patience and understanding. Both from those who think it takes too long and from those that are annoyed by those who think it takes too long.
For us it's unfortunate to see both. But to be honest I'm not sure what we can do to make everyone happy. Maybe this post can bring some understanding again at least. And you can rest assured LFS will still be around for a while, constantly being further developed.

I think that about says it all. I'm as eager as anyone to see both improvements to and an expansion of LFS, but in the meantime I'm having a ton of fun doing what LFS was designed for and accomplishes so well ...... racing online. Already there are so many combos and servers that I don't think I'll ever be bored with LFS just as it is .... as long as I can find good races with nice folks.

Good post Funnybear - hope folks plow through it and get the point

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

Like I said, We shouldnt make war here, Were are One community. Members are here to help each other like I also said before but oh no, there are more fanboys coming toward us (like we didnt have enough of them). There is totally no point in what we are discussing right now.

So you're saying you can dish it out, but not take it? I'm no fanboy, but consider this before you rant on delays:

Quote from Victor :

a quality product developed by 1 programmer.

Lol, sorry to interrupt the whole argument...

But I was wondering if the new tire physics would cause the force feedback to behave differently. For example will opposite lock occur with a bit less force now? (The stopping force on the wheel after you finish the initial part of the counter steer feels very strong and springy as is right now)

Your wasting your time...

We are all keen to see things sooner rather than later but sometimes it's just not possible without taking shortcuts which would then have an adverse impact on the future.

Would I have liked to see a major patch released last xmas? - YES!
Would I have liked to see the tyre physics patch update finished and released instead of some comment about it? - YES!

Am I willing to wait as long as it takes for it to be done? - YES!
Am I happy with LFS and what I get out of the game atm? - YES!

Now I know not everybody feels the same and some people will move on, they always have but that is ok. LFS has lost a fair amount of momentum with the online user base, I should know Australia has always had a very small user base so we feel it more than most. I do not however believe that that will result in LFS going the way of the dinosaur. In the past two years LFS has faced increasing competition, competition is good though. One thing it does is causes the competitiors to focus more clearly on their products uniquness, perhaps that is partly what prompted Scawen to make the desicion to entirely redo the tyre physics model. If he pulls off a much improved tyre physics model that will give them a very good base to complete S3 with all the rich features we desire in a sim while still being able to mix it with the big boys in terms of as real as it gets. Really all the other features are fine tunning once you have got the base right and tyre physics is where the rubber meets the road

Im all for quality of the releases but the current pace isn't because of quality work, its because of how small the team is and it just isn't effeciant enough if they want to keep people coming back. All the top drivers are moving over to iracing...

You are right many have already moved to iracing and many more are thinking of doing so, on the other hand iracing does have weaknesses also which people will see more as time goes on its the natural progression of things.

I think there would have been quite a flow to iracing regardless of how many updates LFS released in the last year, my perspective is that the LFS developers have realised this was happening and have taken the time to improve their product on a fundamental level which then gives them a much better base to compete with the likes of iracing in the future. If iracing has better physics, better FFB and better tracks, etc then doesn't matter how much content you pump into LFS, LFS would still loose more "sim" racers and only keep the gamers that don't want to pay a lot of money for "realism". Where if they fundamentally improve the physics and hopefully at some point introduce more dynamic track environments then they will be able to attract back sim race enthusiests old and new in there droves imo.

So while there is no question of an ebb at the moment in "good" drivers leaving, I believe that there will be a flow back either in new blood or old and new at a latter stage. Life always has up and down cycles, a down cycle is not necessarily a bad thing though it can be a time were you take stock and gain strength for the next up wave

There was a strong feeling of an ebb phase in LFS back in late 2005 early 2006 with the older LFS players also, many long term prominant LFS memebers quitely disappeared arround that time. But many new people came along and the LFS community was stronger than ever, in a different way perhaps but none the less a very strong and vibrant community.

I'm fairly certain that after a natural time of consolidation that the community will grow again most likely in a way that is different to the last two phases, but it will still likely be a strong vibrant community in the future also. I'll stick around to see what happens anyway, and I know people that have not played LFS in years still pop into the forum every now and then, alot did not like the transition from S1 to S2 so who knows the new tyre physics might be what draws those oldies back or it just might attract a whole different crowd

i hate to be the 'peace-maker'

this thread is leading to more arguements then support or anything else. anybody with the authority to close threads please close this the actual discussion is over with (in my eyes) so this thread is pointless right now imho

the truth of the matter is, is that everyone, no matter where they are deserves some time to themselves without having to listen to moaners, or worry about satisfying everyone else. let the devs take their time, because if they want they could keep it to themselfes, or even completely stop working...do we want that diddnt think so

stop flaming (or whatever you call this) the devs, they do not deserve that treatment after all of the joy they brought you. before you post, just remember is it helping or harming the motivation of the devs, or is it offending or encouraging people. wheres the peace :sadbanana

I've had eleven years with GPL and the last three months in iRacing. I have had more fun with LFS in the last four days than I did in the whole time at iRacing. I tried LFS about 4 years ago and was not impressed with the demo, but I am having a blast with it now. I can't believe it is being programmed by just one man. Very well done, in my opinion. If the tire model update makes it even better than it is now I don't think LFS needs to worry about iRacing.

Quote from codehound :

If the tire model update makes it even better than it is now I don't think LFS needs to worry about iRacing.

I agree with this simply because LFS has its own feel which you cant replicate. Also iracing is very expensive and also American IIRC so its quite different in that respect.

What im trying to say is LFS has its own market and way of doing things which is a good thing for the game but not so good for the enthusiasts, naturally people will move to iracing like everybody moves from game to game just for a change, i know i used to play on rFactor just for a change of scenery!

Hopefully back to being constructive...

Quote from ScoobRX :

Lol, sorry to interrupt the whole argument...

But I was wondering if the new tire physics would cause the force feedback to behave differently. For example will opposite lock occur with a bit less force now? (The stopping force on the wheel after you finish the initial part of the counter steer feels very strong and springy as is right now)

I very much doubt the FFB model itself will change.
As I understand it, it behaves as a result of forces on the steering wheels etc and as such it should behave differently if the physics change, particularly a change like tyre physics. I didn't have a FFB wheel to compare the last time the tyre model changed, so I can't give you an answer for certain, but I'd be surprised if FFB doesn't feel different as a result of new tyre physics.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

all kinds of worried posts

Aaaaah
but still you are here and concerning about it, that's good

Quote from Degats :

Hopefully back to being constructive...



I very much doubt the FFB model itself will change.
As I understand it, it behaves as a result of forces on the steering wheels/tyres etc, and as such it should behave differently if the physics change, particularly a change like tyre physics. I didn't have a FFB wheel to compare the last time the tyre model changed, so I can't give you an answer for certain, but I'd be surprised if FFB doesn't feel different as a result of new tyre physics.

Your right. The FFB Forces change depending on whats going on with the wheels. Hit a kerb, and the wheel with momentarily go very strong as your bouncing over the kerbs. Buckle one of your suspension components (like the lower wishbone) and you will notice the steering gets much heavier due to the bent suspension component. Its also the same if you put your tire pressures very low. The steering gets very heavy when cornering due to the tyre wall and contact patch rolling much deeper under itself. It really goes to show how advanced and realistic the physics can be in Live For Speed, so i can only imagine them being better when the new Tyre physics are realesed.

Quote :

alot did not like the transition from S1 to S2 so who knows the new tyre physics might be what draws those oldies back or it just might attract a whole different crowd

It will be really interesting to see what happens in terms of the community dynamic after the update. I wasn't around in the beginning, but I kinda sense that the older community of players were a more 'hardcore' set from the point of view that the focus was much more on the physics side of things. Maybe a big update in core physics will bring some of these guys out of the woods again but the concern will be that there isn't enough new content to really keep the oldies around for too long. There are also a lot of newer players who seem to be loudest in demanding new content, maybe because they're used to the idea that racing games should come standard with 50+ cars and millions of tracks (which I think is a fairly spoilt position to take- it doesn't address that LFS is based around a totally different model to most racing games). How much will a new physics model mean to some of these players, the ones who are already bored before they've even taken the time to appreciate LFS for what it is?

So yeah, will be curious to see how it all goes. Are physics still LFS's big drawcard? Are the hardcore that hardcore that a new physics model is all they need to feel the renewel of the sim? Will the update generate enough excitement among the newest players to carry things forward? Or will it just get nasty again?

Stay tuned!

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Maybe a big update in core physics will bring some of these guys out of the woods again but the concern will be that there isn't enough new content to really keep the oldies around for too long.

Speaking for myself, though I'm not entirely as old a timer as some of the other players here, I don't think content would do much to get me racing again (or rather keep me racing after the novelty of new physics wears off I guess). I would take it for a spin, sure. I may even be entertained for a while, but content gets old real fast. The important part has always been the racing, and by proxy the community of people you're racing against.

That's what I always enjoyed. The nice people, the atmosphere online, the clean and fair racing, the forums. Those things have changed, and for me entirely in the wrong direction. I don't feel I fit with the current crop of LFS racers on a very basic level, so I just don't race. No amount of content will change that.

having good friends in lfs has always kept me from getting away...

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Im all for quality of the releases but the current pace isn't because of quality work, its because of how small the team is and it just isn't effeciant enough if they want to keep people coming back. All the top drivers are moving over to iracing...

Thats great, I think we've got your opinion on it a few pages ago after coming back from a ban for being a moron. The answer is there, posted by Victor, Funnybear, Scawen and others. We have a new tyre physics update coming and its going to take some time, simple as that. How much more information do you need?

Also, if you think 1 person is inefficient then clearly you've never worked in a large team. Large teams are inefficient because there is overhead required just to keep the team managed and focused on the same goal. In fact a single person is about as efficient as you can get because that one person knows exactly what is going on. Efficiency does not equal speed.

So in the meantime lets enjoy LFS as it is and then be happy when the tyre physics update is released. What is so difficult about that?

Regards

Quote from ebola :

Also, if you think 1 person is inefficient then clearly you've never worked in a large team. Large teams are inefficient because there is overhead required just to keep the team managed and focused on the same goal. In fact a single person is about as efficient as you can get because that one person knows exactly what is going on. Efficiency does not equal speed.

This argument annoys me so much. If one man was as fast as a team of men, why would companies that make games even bother with more than one coder? If Scawen was coding the game, and had another coder ironing out bugs, I'm sure coding would get done a heck of a lot faster. Sure, he'd have to get used to the code and how everything worked, but once he (or she, I shouldn't be sexist here!) was up to speed, I have no doubt things would work faster. All it takes is a little organisation.

For the record, I'm happy with the way things are going with LFS and I have no problem with the development speed.

As he said, efficiency does not equal speed. I think what he is trying to say is: Sure, they would code faster overall, but as for the amount of actual work done per person, one person coding is quicker, because he can just get on with it.

I think that "random weather" of course adjustable, will give more content then new tracks and so on. I am for new tracks (I've still haven't race all though ) but I'd be more pleased to see weather and night conditions, which will make MORE fun then new tracks/content. (S3 is far far imo)
Thanks for upcoming tire physics update!

ps: Please, release it sooner...
Since I have license I haven't seen a whole alphabet upgrade

Quote from Khann :

This argument annoys me so much. If one man was as fast as a team of men, why would companies that make games even bother with more than one coder? If Scawen was coding the game, and had another coder ironing out bugs, I'm sure coding would get done a heck of a lot faster. Sure, he'd have to get used to the code and how everything worked, but once he (or she, I shouldn't be sexist here!) was up to speed, I have no doubt things would work faster. All it takes is a little organisation.

You are making many many assumptions here.

First of all, you are assuming you know how Scawen and the guys run their business. I suspect that you actually don't, so you aren't qualified to suggest how to make it "better".

Quote :

why would companies that make games even bother with more than one coder?

Couple of things here; "companies" that make other games might have a couple of dozen people writing actual code for various aspects of the game (level design, graphic design, physics, game concepts, story boarding, etc. the list is LONG). However, lots of their time is taken up not actually writing any code, but communicating with all of the other people. Make suggestions, offering solutions, discussing work flow, signing ideas and work off with managers, etc. When you work in this kind of environment, just because you work in that environment creates more work. Just the management overhead itself requires more people to be employed.

I imagine a game like GRID might be developed in a big environment like this.

Compare that to one man, he manages all his code, he writes it all, he knows where everything lives, he doesn't have to explain his code, he doesn't sit in long boring concept meetings with ten other people, all who want a piece of the pie.

Compare GRID with LFS; Don't care how you look at it, GRID is a much larger game, that has many more requirements set upon it by the production company, the development house, the sponsors, etc. Comparatively LFS is a much simpler model.

Why then, would anybody want to make the development process of LFS any more complicated? You wouldn't. You have a track record of making it work in the past, so if it aint broke, don't "fix it".

This is just one aspect of why, in certain cases, it would be significantly less efficient to just throw more people at it.

I for one, welcome our new rubbery overlords.