Your watching or not watching does have an effect - by choosing to watch, you are condoning the content - if lots of folks watch a video, there will be loads more similar videos, if nobody watches, the 'genre' will die !
So you wouldn't care if every time one of your relatives searched your (or their) name on the internet, the search results were full of sicko video compilations of fatal crashes ? don't you think they would have suffered enough when it happened that they would rather not go through it over and over again ?
Thats a load of crap - seeing footage of any racing crash will give you some understanding of what happens to a racing car in a crash. Besides the fact that it will give you no idea of how a road car will be affected, it doesn't need to be a crash that involved a fatality - there is not need for that whatsoever!
So why watch it then ? the more you watch it the more it will become available, the more it will be acceptable, and the more folks will get their kicks from it ! JUST SAY NO
Exactly, for the successful drivers, post clips of their achievements, for the rookies and also-rans, post information about their careers, their families etc.
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If you must create a video with footage of fatalities, it should be done with a complete historical context, full (as far as possible) and accurate historical information, and a completely objective 'voice' (and of course warnings about the nature of the content). The idea that a montage of fatal crash clips can be for anything other than grusome titillation seems ridiculous to me. IMO a film about even one fatal accident would have to be at least a few minutes in length to provide enough information to the viewer to be valuable in any sense other than for pure entertainment. If you have multiple incidents, you would be talking about a major undertaking - a few hours, with probably years of work to be able to produce anything approaching a worthy testament to these peoples lives, and the impact their deaths had on their families, their friends their colleagues, and their sport.
That is completely unreasonable, quite a few of the drivers who died were almost completely unknown. In fact, many of the people even get their birthdate wrong. Terry Schoonover, Matias Rico and Corky Cookman are among them
You seem to be confusing my intentions.
1. I am not Eli Roth. I did not produce another Hostel. I am in no way getting a kick from making these videos. In fact, I cant stand to watch these anymore.
2. I agree, it would be in better taste to give historical information and give a human face to these drivers. But me compiling all those crashes took me forever and in the end the video was about 30 min. What do you want me to do? Make a 3 hour documentary? I dont have the time or resource to do that (but I will once I complete my college years)
3. Again, I do realize my blunder where I just showed people dying one after another. but my video was in this format mainly because I want to combat the other "tributes" where punk rock is played. IMHO that is one of the most disrespectful videos I've ever saw and I got into an argument with the creators about it. The creators claim that there is no way to make a crash fatality video "respectful" so they just make it "exciting".
The purpose of my video was to prove them wrong. The crashes also serve as a reminder how many people died from many sports. I've even known people who think that no one in the history of motorsports died from crashes.
Atmosphere matters slightly more on content and my intentions are clear in the atmosphere of the videos.
No it isn't - in fact it is very sane and very reasonable.
In that case, lets hear you justify putting footage of their deaths in your video?
What purpose does it serve other than to have more death to shock and titillate ?
Hostel is a fictional story - however explicit and brutal, it is not real, and the viewers know it is not real.
If you're not getting a kick, why make the movie... ?
So, you agree its in poor taste, but it was a lot of work, so that justifies it ?
In that case, don't do it! (or after completing it and realizing it is in poor taste, withdraw it and distance yourself from it rather than trying to defend it.)
That is truly sick - you did it purely to try and win an argument ?!
At least the creators of the other films are honest - seems they have more integrity than you do. I agree with them that it's not possible to "make a crash fatality video "respectful"", although my conclusion would be that in that case, don't make the movie at all - they obviously have a different moral standpoint. At least they are not hypocritical.
fwiw, to suggest that one video is more ethically sound than another purely because of the genre of music that is used is laughable.
You don't need to show footage of people dying to remind us how many people die in sports.
If you were making a film about the changes in safety rules in the sport.... or if you were making a documentary about a particular driver who was involved in a fatal accident, then there may be justification for showing the footage. But if you are really trying to justify showing just a montage of death clips, you are going to have to do a lot better than 'trying to prove to them that you can make a 'respectful' 'crash fatality video'''... I mean for goodness sake, consider the meaning of the word respectful, then repeat the phrase 'crash fatality video'...
Can anyone think of anything less respectful than a crash fatality video ?
not quite sure what that was supposed to mean... anyhow, here's an analogy for you:
The content is the meat, and the 'atmosphere' is the seasoning. No amount of salt and pepper will make rotten meat taste good!
.....I seriously cannot believe you just said that. I hate that myth those liberals make up just to cover their own
Let me put it this way, child pornography is considered vile. But, if there's a movie that depicts a FICTIONAL scenerio pertaining to child pornography, does that make it better? In the end it doesn't matter if the depiction is "fictional" or real, then content is there and the malicious intent is also still there. If the director puts those content with the pure intent of showing savagery for kicks, THEN IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THE CONTENT IS "FICTIONAL" OR NOT. That is a incredibly poor justification.
Roth created Hostel with the pure intent to glorify and relish torture. These punk "tributes" were created so people can get a kick at watching people die in motorsports.
THAT WAS FAR FROM MY INTENTION. How you managed to come to that conclusion is beyond me. Seriously, how can you compare my videos to those that glorify these deaths. The only thing that's similar about my videos are that they contain fatal crashes THAT'S IT.
Not one friend I showed the video to felt good about it afterwards. I had 2 friends who cried and another (who's completely ignorant about motorsports) who quietly agreed to never talk trash about racing again. Many others were horrified and found new respect for racing in general. My video was not necessarily directed towards the LFS community. I know that many of you are well informed about the world of motorsports. MY PEERS ARE NOT. I live in Hawaii, I'm probably the only person in the entire population of Hawaii to care about racing. I've shed light on the dangers of motorsports and how these drivers warrant much more respect than the general public are willing to give.
That in itself is my true intention (plus as i stated at the beginning of this thread I was comissioned to do it)
Dont be so naive to think that motorsports are well known everywhere. I have to constantly deal with "racing's not a sport, the drivers do no work at all" kind of thing.
That is not what I said, dont twist my words about. I'll admit though that it would have been better if I gave the drivers a human face
I cannot believe you just defended the exact same people who spit at motorsport and finds thrill in watching people die in racing. These people actually ENJOY the fatalities and created the video purely for the purpose of that. I expressed my discontent and I was given a F&#@ YOU responce.
As I clearly stated everywhere in this thread THAT IS NOT MY INTENTION. Those "punk" tribute are the ones who relish the crashes. MINES DO NOT (or atleast try not to). How you mix those up I have no idea.
I used the music as an example of my intentions. If you are too blind to see the difference between the use of the punk rock song "kill them all" and Shostackovic's Concerto No. 2 in this situation then you are a really sad man.
us, WHO IS US? You? LFS Community? again, are you so naive to think that the entire world follows racing. Here in Hawaii, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE FOLLOWS RACING. People here just think that racing is going around in circles (either simple or complicated circuits) and warrants no skill what so ever. People here also think that no one in the history of motorsport has died from any accident.
Just because a Formula 1 fan post a few videos of a couple of fatal F1 crashes doesn't instantly make him a sadists. My channel, which hosts these three fatality crash videos, are no different than the other channels who posts a few videos of people who died in motorsports.
How in the world you come to compare me to those who glorify those crashes is completely beyond me, just look at the attitude that those punk "tributes" were made in. If you cannot tell the difference then you really are blind.
Again, if a Dale Earnhardt fan post a 12 sec video showing Dale Earnhardt's fatal crash, that does not instantly make him a sadists who suddenly start to enjoy fatalities in motorsports.
You are blurring the fine line between those who show the video out of humility and those who show the video out of entertainment.
I still think it (all three I've watched) was awesome, and a fitting tribute. None were glorified for their deaths, and there were no images used that were 'too strong'.
Lots of work or not, people die in motorsport. Sometimes 'nicely' sometimes 'nastily'. As fans of motorsport (even if we don't see eye to eye on the whole left hander thing) it is correct and proper to acknowledge the reasons that caused these men to chase their dreams. It is the same emotions (but on a different scale) that makes us play LFS or go racing/sprinting/autocrossing/rallying in real life. It is the same emotion that makes people go skydiving or skateboarding. Without it we wouldn't be 'human'.
I totally approve and condone your videos, and I hope to see more.
To those of you who do or do not remember my videos about a year ago. I've decided to remake them to become more fitting to the fatalities.
One of the chief arguments about the videos is that I didn't put a human face to them. Well...I'm trying my best to make a video about the sadness and horror that motorsports can present without overly glorifying the crashes or make the video purely about the crashes.
F1 management took my previous 2 tributes down, so I've reuploaded part 1 redone.
I hope you guys will still find my work better than the other "tributes" that just show the violent crashes purely for the sake of violence.
EDIT : The music was beautiful, a very fitting tribute. I felt emotion on alot of incidents, particularly on the Formula 1 crashes. I don't really know how I managed to watch without shedding any tears to be honest.
I don't get it, I don't subscribe to it. In fact IMO it's sick, tasteless, tactless, insensitive, disgusting and anything but a tribute or honor to the memory of those that died. It's the worst kind of voyeurism.
Did you think my focus of that video was purely of violent deaths? I admit that my previous video seemed like that because it was just a name and a black screen then the crash. Yeh, I can see how I made the previous videos more about the crashes than the drivers themselves.
In my remake, I tried to put a human face to the drivers. I found as many pictures as I could (it was very difficult because many were obscure before their death) and some of the footage were of the aftermath of the crashes so you cant really say that I intended this video to satisfy sadistic voyeuristic pleasures.
If you REALLY want to see a distasteful crash compilation, take a look at the other "tributes" where they just put random fatal crashes to satanic or punk rock. THAT is distasteful and it usually left me angry.
The purpose of my tributes (imho) is clearly opposite of those types of videos. I've gotten emails and PMs from people who have said that they cried watching my tributes. THAT is my intent. It is a focus on tragedy, not violence (as many others are).
I also showed this video to a friend and he said, after watching he had much more respect for racecar drivers and racing in general.
Those two responses is what I am after. If you feel offended by the videos I apologize, however, I sincerely believe that you have misinterpreted my intent of these videos. (Or drew up your own conclusions without watching them)
If you strongly feel otherwise I'm prepared to defend my position.
It's a part of life and a part of motorsport, if you don't understand and witness the dangers of the sport you can't fully appreciate the risk drivers take in every race and practice session. Death is a part of life, some people prefer to pretend it doesn't exist, others prefer to open their eyes and try to understand it.
I don't understand tributes like these. I can understand it when people honour firemen or soldiers who died - they took big risks so that others might survive and live a better life. But a racer's death? It's tragic, sure. But what did they die for? Why did they take the risk? For the glory of winning? Or simply because they were addicted to the adrenaline rush? In either case, the reason is "selfish", and I can't see anything honourable in it.
It's not the same. Death is part of life, but the way people die is no reason for commemoration. I like to remember my grandparents for the good people they were and the deeds they did, not for the slow and agonizing diseases they died of.
No! A racer's death is not inevitable. It's an unnecessary death. It's reason to get angry because the constructors made unsafe cars and got away with it. Angry because for many decades people closed their eyes to the insane risks.
A tribute to these deaths is an attempt to make them "right". THAT's closing your eyes.
Does someone have to die for a cause in order for their death to be "worthy"? What about daredevil deaths or airplane deaths?
The fact that these drivers have reached the extraordinary in which so few will understand or experience in their lifetime (and this includes almost EVERYONE here in the LFS community as well) makes their journey to the beyond that much more special.
That is true, however, a racer's death holds a special meaning towards the world of motorsports purely because motorsports is still such a dangerous profession. It holds a tragedy but also a reminder of how extraordinary these drivers actually are even in the modern age. You CANNOT downplay that.
Jackie Stewart once said:
"For a quick lap at the Nürburgring, you've probably experienced more in seven minutes and six or seven seconds than most people have experienced in all their life in the way of fear, in the way of tension, in the way of animosity towards machinery and to a racetrack."
As corny as this may sound...Race car drivers have reached a pinnicle point in a human life where they come SO close to death and elude it while reaching levels of emotion and competition that most people will never come understand in their life. THAT is why their deaths are so special. (And so tragic).
Of course racing isn't the only thing that is heavily embedded in the human condition. Many other people reach the pinnacle of human life in other forms such as art, film, construction, science, sports, etc. All those are worth making tributes (and people do) so why is racing any less? Have you ever seen the Filmmakers tribute in the Oscars? Emotional stuff. Arguably, all those people made films for "selfish" purposes, but the fact that they have reached to such levels of extraordinary achievements is worth reflecting.
Arguably, a soldier's death in a war is not inevitable and is also meaningless...if you define death that way then in all honestly...no tributes of any kind should be made...ever.
A tribute to these deaths will only serve to outline the heavy price that is the world of motorsports. Very simple. You can interpret and twist that all you want. But the fact remains that so many have braved and died in a field of extraordinary conditions. This very fact alone is worth memorializing and other tributes were made for much less
I can agree with people saying that actually gore incidents like broken bones, smashed face and stuff in a video is a really really strange fixation. But Lizards videos are far from that, yes you know they have died, but it's been along time since most of those crashes and in almost 90% of the crashes, the driver died instantly, the only other crashes that aren't nice to watch are the burning wrecks, but it's not like you see a man on fire climbing out and screaming to be doused with a fire extinguisher.
Lizard I totally agree with all points you've made. The video was fantastic, a real tribute to the drivers that lost their lives. Like QS says, death is a part of life, it does no good to ignore it, but these videos don't affect me in a way they affect others, sure I was quite close to tears in some points but I don't see the driver die directly, all I see is a smashed car or a burning wreck. If you have a real issue with these videos maybe you are thinking too directly about what's happened in the films you've seen. I'd rather watch a fatal crash tribute video than a movie like SAW, so it's not real, but if it's not real to people watching then it's not a good movie, and if it feel real to you watching and you enjoy watching it, then you are a very sick person.
Good tributes it really shows why safety measures have improved soo much during the ages.
I agree with lizard here, these tributes have respect in mind unlike the ones that have heavy metal rock music which is basically using it as humor or exitement this type of music kinda gets you emotional. Peoples lives should be respected and these are fitting tributes.
10 years ago a head on nascar into the wall at 160+ would kill you.
now it just stuns you
i am so glad that racing deaths don't happen often anymore.
this crash freaks me out but im glad he didn't get hurt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmzyac79Mlk
You don't have to witness someones death to understand it.
Anyway you never truely understand death until it affects your life directly in some way. Watching complete strangers die on a video gives nothing to the process of understanding death.
If that is the case then why does it appear to bother you? Sounds like you're just arguing for the point of it, or trying to take some moral highground on a tricky subject. Either way you're a fool.
Either way, this strange awe that people get from watching extreme, killing forces at work is part of human nature unfortunately. If you are above it, then don't watch, but normal humans will be humans.
Except a lot of the "crashes" presented were aftermath crashes as well. Where no one had actually "died" in the moment.
So, if my tribute was entire made of aftermath scenes...that small fact would make my tributes better? See how arbitrary this is?
I do admit there is a fine line...if I took a camera and recorded soldiers getting mowed down, then that would probably be better left off camera. If I were to create a tribute to victims of a serial killer, I'd likely leave out scenes of their deaths.
But there isn't anything particularly gruesome about these crashes (except the Tom Pryce one, and that video's quality was very low thankfully). In fact, someone told me "sucks that most of these crashes doesnt look as serious as some non fatal crashes (kenny brack)"
But for a motorsports fan, the crashes themselves embody the tragedy that befalls motorsports every year. It's not the gruesomeness that conveys this...but more of a sense of loss each time it is presented. It is more of a symbolic presentation instead of a "shocker" presentation. The music, the pictures, the choice of editing. It's all meant to push towards a goal to convey the sense of tragedy and loss as well as the horror side of motorsports, without physically watching something incredibly gruesome.
Ever wonder that if I made this video for the sake of watching people suffer or for "voyeuristic" purposes, then why didn't I put pictures of the drivers being graphically operated on in the video?
Make no mistake some tributes DO put those unecessarily graphic pictures in their tributes (to make things worse these are the onces with punk rock music), and it is those tributes that usually piss me off. I set out to create something to respect these drivers while bringing it to the regular audience to create more awareness of the dangers of motorsport.
I just think it's hard to connect with text or pictures, I want to see motorsport for everything that it is, and so long as it's done tastefully and proper respect is payed to the driver, then I see no problem with watching videos of fatal accidents. I'm just wondering how many of these whingers have seen video footage or documentaries about Aryton Sennas fatal accident.
I think they are just whinging because "it's wrong to see people die" and they want people to recognize their high standards of morals. It's a stupid way to be to almost argue for the sake of it over something which is a dedication, yes in general most tribute videos are pathetically tasteless but Lizards tribute videos really do hit home as being a dedication to those who've died.
It's almost like these people who whine that they know someone who died of cancer and kick up a big fuss when someone makes a joke or says a lighthearted comment on it. The fact is everybody has had someone close to them that died of cancer, it just shows that some people can get on with their lives with out getting ruffled feathers over something they think they are the only one to have experienced. I doubt anyone here has had a family member die in a racing accident so in reality, this subject shouldn't affect anyone in an offensive way.
Also like racism, the first ones to cast the stone are usually white folk.
Then you haven't experienced it either, so your claims to its being extraordinary have no grounds.
I do have a hunch, tho: adrenaline rush. Anyone can experience it by bungee-jumping or by taking a rollercoaster ride. Your senses tell you that your life is in danger, adrenaline kicks in and puts your body&mind into overdrive. Aftwards, everything else seems shallow. It's just chemistry.
BTW, they did not "journey to the beyond". Their bones were crushed, their bodies were smashed, their skin was burnt. They suffered pain. They died and left widows and orphans behind.
I won't deny that it takes extraordinary skill to drive these machines, but why did you not honour Fangio, Moss, Stewart, and others who were masters at their art AND were lucky enough to survive?
Actually i have. I sat in a double seated stock car going around at a local track. It was a late model so I think i was only going around 170.
I was scared even coming out of the pitlane...nevermind shredding it down that massive banked oval. it was impressive and a moment I will never forget.
But racing actually takes skill. Bungee-jumping and rollercoaster rides require no interaction...it's just purely u sitting there and feeling the thrill. Racing is that but much much more. It's skill, it's talent, it's raw emotion (victory or crash), it's raw competition...I'm not going to go as far as some and say racing is an art. But racing is hardly just purely for the adrenaline rush. If this was the case then why do people bother to create racing simulations for non-race car drivers to play? Why do people love racing so much just by watching and playing it?
Do you feel a rush watching someone bungee-jump even if bungee-jumping is exciting in itself? Hardly... What about racing? Definitely.
Journey to the beyond is an expression that people use to say that they died. Yes they died pretty much horribly (although not everyone exactly suffered), and they left orphans behind.
THAT'S WHY IT IS A TRAGEDY. I explained this again and again, I didn't make the videos just for the heck of watching people die in crashes. I added photos of their great moments and their wives and I even had the Nemechek family in the John Nemechek fatal crash section of the video...
It's all in the edited technique, the choice of music, the style of transition, the choice of photos, etc. I wanted to convey a sense of loss and a sense of great tragedy in this video and just showing a slideshow of photos just wont do it. I did do this with the idea of creating a FILM in mind...why is this goal so "distasteful"? Just because I showed the horror of motorsports through these fatal crashes? Do you realize how arbitrary that is? If you feel so god damm strong about this...then tell me another method I could have used to carry out this goal?
Did you even watch the video or are you just prematurely jumping to conclusions and decide to bash base on that?
I did...youtube took it down quickly because of copyright infringement but that's besides the point.
Are those tributes the only kind to be allowed to exist in the world? The filmmakers tribute at the Oscars paid tribute to all the filmmakers who died. Are you saying that is morbid and only people who are still alive needs to be remembered and memorialized?
There is a purpose to show these crashes. I have explained over and over again exactly what that purpose is and what my means were to achieve it. Pictures, information, and some of the footages were of the aftermath of the crash....
You are either jumping to conclusion or you just want to argue. But this is getting pointless. Stop beating around the bush.
