I expect a lot of them could be done via InSim. If they can track 0-60 times then it can measure distance driven for those kinds of achievements. But I can't think of any decent non-distance-related achievements that would be worth adding.
lol, I love the way you asked for example achievements that would suit LFS and then when I post a whole list of ones that are impossible to call arcade or console like you ignore and just jump on the "thats so arcade" bandwaggon against a different person.
So come on pick faults on the achievements I posted. How are any of them arcade?
Also for everyone else......
1) iRacing has systems that limit what you can race. You need to get a licence (ACHIEVEMENT) to allow racing in some series.
2) While MMOs don't have achievements they allow you to level up or get items (ACHIEVEMENTS)
3) CTRA was the most popular thing to ever happen to LFS.... EVER. It was so popular it was hard to get on the servers at times and they logged more miles than prob ALL the other servers over a similar period. Licences and other stat like things that gave people stuff to aim for (ACHIEVEMENT).
ALL the arguments that if LFS is boring its the wrong game/sim fall apart when you look at CTRA!
Did ANY of you that say NO drive on CTRA and if so why? It was Sooooooooooo arcade! lol
There's a difference between achieving something and an ACHIEVEMENT™. We have LFSWorld which gives us racing and laptime stats, do we really need something that says "RacerX won a race starting from last place" or "FM-Failure raced to 1,000,000 kilometers"?
The answer is no, we don't. It wouldn't add anything to a serious sim experience to have little balloons telling us "You did random thing X!!".
The answer is no, we don't. It wouldn't add anything to a serious sim experience to have little balloons telling us "You did random thing X!!".
Well it not. Even GTA gets boring when you done everything you have to do and now only driving and killing random policemen is all what left.
If I would get some kind of a notification on a server that i just win a race with a guy on the track he have world record it would be cool.
Drafting longer every time or overtake 5 person in 5 seconds it can be fun.
When it comes to Wow the whole game is full of variety of things to do, quests and stuff like that and achievements the only difference they are not called achievements but treasures and items, levels.
Well I didn't said I don't know what it is. As for now I dont know do i know what it is because every translator fails to translate it.
But I might know what it is and might not.
But it doesn't change the fact that i don't even have to know to see when a plane behave itself like a plane or not, for example when you see Boeing which flight like a paper plane you can tell there is something wrong and without even knowing what stabs is.
Hahha now its funny because there a lot WW II pilots where helping during making of that game there is a big interview with them on 1C site somewhere also there a few stunt team where real pilots playing.
They are also never said that IL2 is a bad sim or not realistic.
I don't know are you a pilot so you can tell what is realistic or you just know what stab and vstab is.
7)I don't need achievements to have a clear race but it still would be fun getting big screen with notification of a totally clean race from the very beginning to the very end.
Also it cold be something totally random.
Of course achievements are good but the main thing you do is still racing.
Achievements are just adds more flavour to thing you do often anyway.
Well its a matter of personal preferences some use would like it and some not.
Anyway I think everything that should be said already was said and the rest is belong to devs and ppl who have servers.
Woz, I'm not on any bandwaggon. You must be 14yo or something to love reading between the lines and crow about it so much. There's nothing horribly bad or especially excellent in your suggestions. And I don't care either way. I'm just pointing out the uselessness of some of the suggestions in the overall achievements arguments. That's the main fault with this suggestion and where the debate should be. Failing to recognize that I'm only working to make or break this suggestion is typical of the reasons why people usually don't value forums much.
The only one in your previous post that's not right is the clean racing one. There shouldn't even be an achievement for that. And how do you implement it? You could have player A racing perfectly clean but repeatedly wrecked by player Z, while player B who doesn't even care about clean racing or clean racing achievement who by chance never made any contact. Why reward player B over player A?
The other suggestions are nothing special. You can keep track of those yourself by memory or using LFSW. Some virtual ribbon or medal isn't going to make it any more special.
Second post- The licensing in CTRA was a one-deal thing. A single achievement, if you have to call it that. Using CTRA as proof that LFS is made to have achievements is grasping at straws. It doesn't offer anything different from leagues, and in fact the reason CTRA was popular was the accessibility of participating in the ranking ladder. There was no novelty or diversity in its features that achievements are supposed to bring, other than the color of the medals you had and the multiple class racing.
Again, the blind MMO comparison doesn't hold water. Gameplay mechanics in an MMO game that's completely sandbox is nothing like such a channeled gameplay environment as the qualify/race world of LFS. In a setting like the cruise or drift servers it makes more sense. In the regular racing setting these achievements would have to be very tightly related to racing performance. And LFSW already serves this, and those that LFSW doesn't manage or display would be where you'd find worthwhile achievements.
The only one in your previous post that's not right is the clean racing one. There shouldn't even be an achievement for that. And how do you implement it? You could have player A racing perfectly clean but repeatedly wrecked by player Z, while player B who doesn't even care about clean racing or clean racing achievement who by chance never made any contact. Why reward player B over player A?
The other suggestions are nothing special. You can keep track of those yourself by memory or using LFSW. Some virtual ribbon or medal isn't going to make it any more special.
Second post- The licensing in CTRA was a one-deal thing. A single achievement, if you have to call it that. Using CTRA as proof that LFS is made to have achievements is grasping at straws. It doesn't offer anything different from leagues, and in fact the reason CTRA was popular was the accessibility of participating in the ranking ladder. There was no novelty or diversity in its features that achievements are supposed to bring, other than the color of the medals you had and the multiple class racing.
Again, the blind MMO comparison doesn't hold water. Gameplay mechanics in an MMO game that's completely sandbox is nothing like such a channeled gameplay environment as the qualify/race world of LFS. In a setting like the cruise or drift servers it makes more sense. In the regular racing setting these achievements would have to be very tightly related to racing performance. And LFSW already serves this, and those that LFSW doesn't manage or display would be where you'd find worthwhile achievements.
What policemen killing achievements exist in LFS?
That's fine. But you could have that in the post-race results table. Like a red helmet next to his name or something.
When it comes to WoW achievements, the comparisons are invalid. Apples and oranges.
Vertical stabilizer. 1C did make military sims earlier, but that means nothing for this Il2 game running on consumer level hardware. And there's no context to saying a WWII pilot feels the game is great. Warbirds had vets saying the same thing and enjoying flying in the game along with other players, etc, having a great time, even though that flight model is now as outdated as its racing contemporaries. Sims pretty much always have someone backing it, saying that it's great for a game.
The fact is Il2's FM feels the same for all planes near departure, the different flight regimes feel stitched together like I said rather than consistent and emergent from a single model, it has those weird loopholes like the no v-stab combat-performance maneuvering, or the .50cal planes rocking all over the place when firing, or the continually fluid performances due to players complaining that their fav plane is underperforming - with a distinct bias in favor of russian planes, and so on.
Argument from authority/ignorance.
Fine I guess, but you'd already know unless you were amnesiac or something.
Like?
Still waiting for such substantial extra flavor to the racing thanks to achievements. Seems like you guys are so in love with achievements in other games that you fail to engage critical thought on whether you actually need an achievement system to gain that "missing" extra flavor. Like the beat the record holder or contact-less race things. No need for achievement for that. The only reason for achievements then is to point it out as bragging rights after the fact. It only really makes sense when you're in a sandbox-enough environment like drift or cruising.
I looooved CTRA. It kept all the noobs in one, easy to avoid place.
You missed the point there. Read again with at least some basic level of understanding.
They not saying its great they saying its realistic, this makes a difference especially when you consider they are flew in real planes.
Flight model its the best as for now.
There is no other prop sim with such a realistic flying model.
Even if it somehow outdated as you said its still have no contest in 2009.
Its makes it the best prop sim out there.
About hypothetical situation with A, B, Z players.
I think player A will be having a lot of occasion to get this achievements as it will be for every race, and not just "get it once and forget".
I am myself actually pretty satisfied when i make a full race without even touching anyone, it is hard but satisfactory when you do this.
Unfortunately you don't always know you made such a good and clear race or how long you drifted or something else achievement would tell you about it.
Already forgotten when WoW was used in discussion and why?
Plz return to the first post where WoW make an first appearance and read it again because as for now you pulled Wow in discussion in random places but forget in which context it was used first so all of your argument with WoW are baseless because you lost context.
You must be joking. Or more likely you didn't play IL2 at all.
When ever you lost a peace of Ailerons, Elevator or Rudder you have problems which are characteristic for this particular kind of damage.
Without aileron you wont be so manoeuvrable and will lost control of aircraft often.
Without rudder your plane will be hard to flight and tail will be acting on its own.
And When you damage your elevator you cant even turn since the elevators are make you turn...(bank and pull up)
There is a lot and lot and lot more.
Dude i have no idea what game you played but it wasnt IL-2 for sure actually when you lost a part of your air control surface its the moment you most likely lost the battle in the air, unless your opponent is damaged as much as you or you can make a quick dive under clouds and run away with speed you gain from diving (hoping you will not falling apart peace by peace while diving).
Another argument of someone who obviously didn't play IL-2 or maybe played it on arcade level of difficulty...
Dude in one word. Things you say about IL-2 sound like you never played it at all.
As I said I think that we will not going to get this achievements from devs anyway.
Most likely Insim, or as third party application so you wont be affected by this in any way.
At least we all know who is The usurper PRO here right? "Osom MasterProBlaster On Da Wheels"
Also this discussion grow big and painful
as for now i think I will pull back from it.If you want to ask me something or tell me I was wrong somewhere use PM.
I don't wanna take a part in this discussion anymore. so just quoting and asking wont do the thing.
Unless you want to have last words then its cool with me
Cheers!
(Chupacabras84)
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by Chupacabras84
You're bowing out because the discussion is this big and it's this big because there's so much BS in it. You can dish out the quote'o-matic but you can't take it.
I have played Il2 on near- and full-real since the days it came out and I have stick time in real plane. I also know real pilots who fly Il2 and other flight sims, including simmers dating all the way back to '93, among them a few people in the aero industry (e.g. restorers) who have studied and interviewed WWII pilots, one pilot from the real topgun, and a number of experienced military pilots. The criticisms I made about Il2 are accurate. The flight model isn't the most accurate there is... That alone shows you're clueless. The strawman that I played Il2 only in arcade mode is BS. Almost sounds like fanboy BS.
The vstab anecdote happened as I described and even the guy flying the plane in question said it was BS afterwards. I replicated this on a C205 in a full real server. Had it happen with a Ta 152H as well. The combat ACM without a vstab was a P-63, also full real physics (icons and engine controls not full real but that's got nothing to do with it).
It's obvious there's no cop killing in LFS, so the question refers to what analog to GTA cop killing or turkey choking there is, in the regular racing part of LFS, for novel takes on the free roaming allowed therein such as achievements would bring out of obscurity for players to explore.
WoW was brought in as an example that games could keep your attention for as long as ten years. Followed the assertion that since WoW did it thanks in some part to achievements, it should be true for LFS as well. Which is an apples to oranges equation because WoW has completely different gameplay mechanics, namely free roaming sandbox coop/PvP roleplaying as opposed to <64 players racing cars on a single-path track as sole objective - aside the cruising and drifting where I said clearly enough to anyone with normal reading comprehension that achievements would make a lot more sense.
I have played Il2 on near- and full-real since the days it came out and I have stick time in real plane. I also know real pilots who fly Il2 and other flight sims, including simmers dating all the way back to '93, among them a few people in the aero industry (e.g. restorers) who have studied and interviewed WWII pilots, one pilot from the real topgun, and a number of experienced military pilots. The criticisms I made about Il2 are accurate. The flight model isn't the most accurate there is... That alone shows you're clueless. The strawman that I played Il2 only in arcade mode is BS. Almost sounds like fanboy BS.
The vstab anecdote happened as I described and even the guy flying the plane in question said it was BS afterwards. I replicated this on a C205 in a full real server. Had it happen with a Ta 152H as well. The combat ACM without a vstab was a P-63, also full real physics (icons and engine controls not full real but that's got nothing to do with it).
It's obvious there's no cop killing in LFS, so the question refers to what analog to GTA cop killing or turkey choking there is, in the regular racing part of LFS, for novel takes on the free roaming allowed therein such as achievements would bring out of obscurity for players to explore.
WoW was brought in as an example that games could keep your attention for as long as ten years. Followed the assertion that since WoW did it thanks in some part to achievements, it should be true for LFS as well. Which is an apples to oranges equation because WoW has completely different gameplay mechanics, namely free roaming sandbox coop/PvP roleplaying as opposed to <64 players racing cars on a single-path track as sole objective - aside the cruising and drifting where I said clearly enough to anyone with normal reading comprehension that achievements would make a lot more sense.
The reason I am nit picking is to highlight the reason put against are just as "trivial" as those people argue are the for reasons. You asked for examples then when I posted you ignored them. As it turns out you agree that all the ones put forward are suitable achievements for racing, apart from the one you dispute as marginal.
I highlighted the MMOs issue as they were put forwards by the against people as an example of not needing achievements when MMOs are built around achievements from the ground up. You can wrap levelling up in any terms or semantics you like but they are achievements, end of story.
The arguments have become circular and both camps are entrenched. As this thread will soon degenerate into the normal LFS Forum name calling and bitching there is nothing left to add.
I have said all I need to and have show that achievements CAN relate to a race sim and have people opposed to the idea agree they can relate to racing so there is nothing else to add.
I will leave the thread now to turn into a circular troll fight which is where it is heading!
Would be cool =P
To all:
This reminds me of a story I once read.
One of the characters started collecting rocks. He would pick up one rock at the end of each day. Each rock represented the day he collected it. He wanted something tangible to show for each day he was alive from the moment he started collecting. He felt like he was accomplishing something as his pile became bigger and bigger.
After some time he had thousands of rocks that stood for each day he had been alive. He looked at his pile of rocks. After staring for a moment he suddenly felt his feeling of accomplishment vanish from within him and a flood of anxiety engulfed him. There was nothing he could do with his pile of rocks. He realized he had no real accomplishments to show of, only a pile that represented how much time he had spent collecting rocks.
I don't care for collecting rocks. As I would expect, not many other people like collecting rocks. And don't care to see any of the rocks you have collected(not even some). If any of you want to collect rocks then by all means you can go do it without the help of LFS.
If programing rocks on LFS takes time from the devs to accomplish something else, then, IMO, its not worth the effort to make rocks for LFS.
So, on to my point. If you really want to collect rocks in LFS then create your own rocks. Write down a list and cross them off as you complete them. You could also create your own server with a rock collecting insim to keep track of your, and your friend's, rocks.
I'd say continuing to play LFS is an accomplishment in its self. You surpassed the learning curve to play. Most of the people that I have tried to get on to sim racing, that liked racing beforehand, could not, and would not strive to continue. Instead, they admitted they would rahter stick to their arcade racing games because they are easer, because LFS was too difficult.
This reminds me of a story I once read.
One of the characters started collecting rocks. He would pick up one rock at the end of each day. Each rock represented the day he collected it. He wanted something tangible to show for each day he was alive from the moment he started collecting. He felt like he was accomplishing something as his pile became bigger and bigger.
After some time he had thousands of rocks that stood for each day he had been alive. He looked at his pile of rocks. After staring for a moment he suddenly felt his feeling of accomplishment vanish from within him and a flood of anxiety engulfed him. There was nothing he could do with his pile of rocks. He realized he had no real accomplishments to show of, only a pile that represented how much time he had spent collecting rocks.
I don't care for collecting rocks. As I would expect, not many other people like collecting rocks. And don't care to see any of the rocks you have collected(not even some). If any of you want to collect rocks then by all means you can go do it without the help of LFS.
If programing rocks on LFS takes time from the devs to accomplish something else, then, IMO, its not worth the effort to make rocks for LFS.
So, on to my point. If you really want to collect rocks in LFS then create your own rocks. Write down a list and cross them off as you complete them. You could also create your own server with a rock collecting insim to keep track of your, and your friend's, rocks.
I'd say continuing to play LFS is an accomplishment in its self. You surpassed the learning curve to play. Most of the people that I have tried to get on to sim racing, that liked racing beforehand, could not, and would not strive to continue. Instead, they admitted they would rahter stick to their arcade racing games because they are easer, because LFS was too difficult.
Oh you did not just quote me for that.
I enjoy my 360 infact i like unlocking achievments, but thats not why i play the 360 or the games. And unlocking achievments just does not have a place in LFS there is not logical or real reason to add them.
Think of it, if there are just achievments to be had, people will drive more wrecklessly depending on achievments if your looking for a pick up race and join the wrong server you'll be flamed so it doesnt add anything. Sure maybe when LFS is all polished and completed sure i cant see a issue but at the moment it doesnt "Improve" the over all experience it just adds hassle.
/rant over.
The reason LFS forum threads turn to that, Woz, isn't that everyone else is a troll or somehow not at your high horse level, but that everyone says that same thing when someone disagrees and that everyone just walks off when someone pulls an ad hominem or other ridiculous argument out of their pants instead of pointing it out for the nonsense it is.
Lotta people like to egg Tristan for being a prick, supposedly, but the real problem is that he nails people with cogent and on target arguments - regardless how much he rubs it in - and that leaves the nitwits with nothing but falling back to trolls, ad hominems, etc.
I'm not spinning or wrapping anything in any semantics. Points ladders like WRC aggregate standings, and league and championship standings, and hotlapping competitions aren't achievements, they're distinct and separate; you're conflating them.
I just don't see how achievements are a positive addition to LFS. The "achievement" format just does not fit what the game is about, IMO. That's my opinion and I'm only giving it because you insist I'm ignoring your suggestions. While they're ok suggestions, they're not that compelling either because you can do all of that yourself right now. So the real problem that this solution is looking for is people with ADD or amnesia or something. People who don't care enough about the game to think about or notice, or chase after these things.
I don't think they're a negative. They're just kinda pointless. They'd only be worthwhile IMO after LFS had gotten much further in development. Like final Sx beta or so. The only positive I do see is getting people to try out less common combos, but it'd be a bandaid fix. It wouldn't be a durable solution to that drought of combos.
Lotta people like to egg Tristan for being a prick, supposedly, but the real problem is that he nails people with cogent and on target arguments - regardless how much he rubs it in - and that leaves the nitwits with nothing but falling back to trolls, ad hominems, etc.
I'm not spinning or wrapping anything in any semantics. Points ladders like WRC aggregate standings, and league and championship standings, and hotlapping competitions aren't achievements, they're distinct and separate; you're conflating them.
I just don't see how achievements are a positive addition to LFS. The "achievement" format just does not fit what the game is about, IMO. That's my opinion and I'm only giving it because you insist I'm ignoring your suggestions. While they're ok suggestions, they're not that compelling either because you can do all of that yourself right now. So the real problem that this solution is looking for is people with ADD or amnesia or something. People who don't care enough about the game to think about or notice, or chase after these things.
I don't think they're a negative. They're just kinda pointless. They'd only be worthwhile IMO after LFS had gotten much further in development. Like final Sx beta or so. The only positive I do see is getting people to try out less common combos, but it'd be a bandaid fix. It wouldn't be a durable solution to that drought of combos.
How come I don't get the idea?
Yes I have played games which has achievements, for example Fallout 3. And I don't like them, because they have no freaking point! Oh, so I killed x monsters/humans! Oh, so I leveled while my karma was neutral!
if there were achievements, they should be ones you'd get out of dumb luck. i hate the ones where you HAVE to try to get them, then you get the achievement whores that ruin the game if its a multiplayer game.
Exactly my point.
That would only be the case if the achievemnts were to encouraage odd behaviour, like for example "flip your car thrice". if the achievements were more sensible, like "qualify first and win the race without losing the firts position once (minimum 10 racers and 10 laps)", they wouldn't cause any problem at all (except maybe racing leaders quitting if they get overtaken once... but that wouldn't ruin the race for others.)
Think of that achievement a bit further. If an achievement junkie wants to get that achievement but is unable to win, let alone qualify first, what do you think they would do to get that achievement? There are already dirty racers who have S2 that don't care if they put you out in a sand trap.
With that said, it is reasonable to infer that there would be a few players willing to try ruin the qualifying and race session for as many people as possible in order to raise the possibility of their wining.
It as also reasonable to extrapolate on other "problem free achievements."
In any situation, any possibility of an achievement junkie is not something that would be good for the LFS community.
Achievement junkies are no worse than some of the stat whores out there TBH. Like the server that used to exist just to log as many miles as possible using oval etc.
If the achievements are only earned if you start and then finish the race/session you stop the "dive in earn achievement then leave" situation. People have to stick around and complete whatever race/session or not get the achievement. So this would encourage people to stay in races, a good thing.
We have achievements already dont we?
Hot lapping! 
Hot lapping!
Stat-junkies are are also bad I agree. Statistics are not just for the sake of collecting. They are logs of data used to compare old data to new data in order to improve or analyze something.
Achievements don't make people finish races. People don't have to stick around to complete any race. Finishing all depends on weather they want or care to finish.
Achievements in video games are designed for collecting. They are for show. When you put an achievement on your resume, it is to show your future employer that you did something. They don't make people want to play a game. Achievements in video games entice people who are easily-influenced into wanting something that they can show for getting, especially if it has no real value. They were designed to increase game-play-hours of any given game for those who want to collect them. That is it, nothing else.
Also, once an achievement has been achieved, it doesn't need to be achieved again. So after the first time, it has now been rendered useless if they are for the purpose of influencing players. Now you have to turn the achievement into statistical data in order for it to have a lasting affect.
With that said, what you have implied is that stat-junkies are what we need in order for more people to finish races. This is contrary to what you have said,
Its all to degrees, as in any thing in life.
I like the stats in LFS but they don't drive me. I don't care if there is no chance for beating my pb for example because high winds are on.
I like the achievements in games like L4D and QuakeLive but don't have them all and doubt I will.
Its nice when they come up in the same way it is whyen you beat a pb and that comes up. For me I am more likley to join a server running a combo that is not a fav if I need that one for an achievements like beat baseline on all tracks for RAC.
What achievements do is change peoples patterns and shake things up a little. BUT... Some people it is all that matters.
They are also probably the same people that will be a stat whore. You know the people... Join a server then want to change the track or turn off wind and stuff anyone else. Or just drive oval in BF1 to clock up the most miles.
Stat whores are as dissruptive as achievement whores to a community. But for the rest of us more "normal" people they just add something.
I doubt that many here would disagree that LFS would not be here as it is today without LFS World?
I'm a stat junkie, I love groups of numbers and putting things in order. I think my spreadsheet for Danowat's run proved that But LFSW is more than enough to satify me. It charts almost everything I could want it to - lap times, miles done, fuel burnt, wins, podiums, races run. It's a great service and there's very little I'd add to improve it.
But like I said way back at the start of the thread, and legoflamb just echoed, they have no lasting merit. If someone wants to race cleanly and fairly, they will do irrelevant for whether there's a special badge for it or not. If they don't, they won't. All an achievement in clean driving would accomplish is delaying them getting back to wrecking or driving like a muppet.
After a few weeks, even the worst driver in LFS could gain the same "reputation" (for wont of a better word and assuming you used achievements do judge players) as the best, since they'd both have all the rewards. So what have you actually accomplished? Nothing. The good driver is still good, the bad driver is still bad.
But LFSW is more than enough to satify me. It charts almost everything I could want it to - lap times, miles done, fuel burnt, wins, podiums, races run. It's a great service and there's very little I'd add to improve it.But like I said way back at the start of the thread, and legoflamb just echoed, they have no lasting merit. If someone wants to race cleanly and fairly, they will do irrelevant for whether there's a special badge for it or not. If they don't, they won't. All an achievement in clean driving would accomplish is delaying them getting back to wrecking or driving like a muppet.
After a few weeks, even the worst driver in LFS could gain the same "reputation" (for wont of a better word and assuming you used achievements do judge players) as the best, since they'd both have all the rewards. So what have you actually accomplished? Nothing. The good driver is still good, the bad driver is still bad.
Achievements have NOTHING to do with "reputation" in the same way stats have NOTHING to do with reputation. You will find that on the whole only you will be the person that looks at your own stats on LFS World, nobody else will.
The idea of achievements is not so you have them all in 2 weeks, some would only be got by a small percentage of the community ever.
Sorry. That just shows you just don't get what achievements are about. I can't be bothered to try and explain any more as I assume you will never get the concept or just don't want to.
Done here
Achievments
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