Quote from Vinnylegends :

THE Way to brake isn't trail braking.
If you have a good brake. Then you can stomp the pedal very fast. Let the rear tires lock up and slide it into the corner.

It's all down to track & formula. In rentals (which spawned this thread) there is rarely a need to do more than brush the brakes at 1 or 2 corners.

In owner driver karting, usually there is a corner or two that requires some degree of actual braking, but most braking is very slight - if at all.

When I was racing pro's I remember at my local club (Rye) I was probably the driver who braked the latest for the infield hairpin, eventually I took to doing pretty much all of my passing on the two hairpins (on account of poor straightline speed of my kart), yet I would only brush the brakes despite being on the brakes after most of my competitors.

If you are stomping the brake of a kart you're probably loosing time. If you're locking wheels up then you are not slowing down and you are not accelerating ... you are coasting. Coasting is not fast.

Of course theoretical discussions are all very well but personally I drive on instinct and I don't have much of a clue what I do when I am racing, it all just happens naturally and without thought so maybe I do lock up and not realise it - but i'll always be gentle on my brakes, those buggers slow me up !

Mind you a lot of how you brake and turn in depends on how the kart is setup, and that is something that changes as the atmospheric conditions change during the day.

I rarely tail brake in karting, I cant think of any corners where I do it. Only times I can think of is when passing other karts, i'm simply not on the brakes long enough to do it and generally speaking i'm on the throttle before the apex as they're quite low horse power machines, so I can't really see any advantage to using it. If your tail braking you are probably braking too late for the corner (ie: passing).

This was the tecnichue wich I learned from another Karting/Simraing driver. It does suit MY driving style. I can place many overtakes with this and brake alot later then others.

Quote from keiran :

I don't understand your point of 'zero steer' because it's not true. There are plenty of different driving styles out there. At the track I work at I personally turn quite heavily to begin with to help slow the kart down and force the inside rear to lift. This usually gets most of my steering done straight away so I can get back on the throttle and use minimal steering through the exit of the corner.

Even a very basic understanding of tires would tell you that it is true, and lack of understanding a subject does not make it untrue. The fastest laps are always with the least amount of steering. This is immediately apparent to anyone who has used a telemetry program. Thus, the absolute fastest lap has no steering input.

The long winded explanation is that each tire has a certain amount of retaining tension. When the tire bends, the side wall acts as a rubber band, attempting to pull the wheel back into alignment, since the direction of travel is no longer the direction of face. The more sideways you get (we're talking quarter-degrees here), the less apt the sidewall is at getting the tire to go straight again. Eventually, when the slip angle gets to a predetermined value based on side wall strength, contact area, corner radius, etc, the wheel can no longer right itself. You feel this as the steering going light. This is the slip angle equilibrium, and it's as hard as a tire can possibly work. When you simply turn the wheel, you feel this when you turn the wheel too far - you've exceeded the front tires' grip. The steering goes light and you understeer.

Obviously, there is a problem with this. The steering wheels are pointed in a different direction to the rear wheels (drive wheels).

So to get the rear wheels to work as hard as the fronts, we need to bring the rear end around and induce a total body slip angle. Obviously, you do this with brake and throttle manipulation - you initiate with the brake on the entry phase, and hold it with the throttle during the apex and exit phase.

So, if our first example - terminal understeer, with the steering going light from too much input - is from the front wheels working, but not the rears, then what does four wheel slip angle equilibrium feel like? The steering is light across the entire range. So, you can hold the wheel straight, and you will go around the corner, provided the proper apex, speed, and footwork, as fast as physically possible. I suspect, you could probably let go of the wheel and still hit your exit mark, again, provided the right speed, line, and pedal use. But I wouldn't test that, because no human can zero steer a whole corner.

The problem with zero steer, and why touring car and F1 drivers don't try to use it, is because of two reasons:

1. chasing zero steer will make you inconsistent.

2. true slip angle equilibrium is hard on tires.

So a true genius driver, who needs to worry about tire life and speed over the course of hours, will operate in the angles just before the steering goes light. We're talking less than half a degree of body slip angle difference.

I didn't spend many thousands on racing school and coaches to learn "the pedal on the right makes it louder". And if you think I'm wrong, Ive got many, many references who are more than qualified. A good chapter on the subject is in Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" on Tires.

Quote from keiran :

Why would you trail brake in a kart?

A braking zone in my kart is about 60 feet at 70 MPH. I can knock 5 feet off that number by trail braking until 5 feet past turn-in and still exit the corner with the same speed, if not faster because I'm 4-wheel drifting. Even with 4 wheel brakes in a KZ2 at 105 MPH the braking zones mandate that you trail brake, and the good drivers do.

Quote from MadCat360 :

Even a very basic understanding of tires would tell you that it is true, and lack of understanding a subject does not make it untrue. The fastest laps are always with the least amount of steering... The long winded explanation is that each tire has a certain amount of retaining tension...

I understand the reasoning but at the same time you've still got to get the kart slowed down and around the corner. When I was racing TKM it wasn't uncommon at some circuits to be locking the drive up briefly to point it towards the apex. You don't need to be smooth to be fast, yes you can keep your tyres in better shape but most kart races are short sprints. Even the endurance racing here uses a Duros/Sumos which we use on our rental karts at work.

Quote :

So to get the rear wheels to work as hard as the fronts, we need to bring the rear end around and induce a total body slip angle. Obviously, you do this with brake and throttle manipulation - you initiate with the brake on the entry phase, and hold it with the throttle during the apex and exit phase.

Since karts have solid axles to get the rear working as hard as the front requires you to lift the inside rear tyre so there's less drag coming from it. Hence why in heavy rentals I'll use the brake and a hard steering input.

Quote :

The problem with zero steer, and why touring car and F1 drivers don't try to use it, is because of two reasons:

1. chasing zero steer will make you inconsistent.

2. true slip angle equilibrium is hard on tires.

If there was an advantage in speed to your 'zero steer' professional drivers would be doing it. They are there to get the maximum they can from themselves and machinery.

Quote :

I didn't spend many thousands on racing school and coaches to learn "the pedal on the right makes it louder". And if you think I'm wrong, Ive got many, many references who are more than qualified. A good chapter on the subject is in Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" on Tires.

What I know and do has all been learnt from expirmenting on track and watching my competitors/other classes. Some of the guys I raced against used similar techniques and are now racing real cars, such as Ryan Sharp who is in FIA GT. Whilst maybe your theory is the ideal way to drive it doesn't make it the right or only way.

Quote :

A braking zone in my kart is about 60 feet at 70 MPH. I can knock 5 feet off that number by trail braking until 5 feet past turn-in and still exit the corner with the same speed, if not faster because I'm 4-wheel drifting. Even with 4 wheel brakes in a KZ2 at 105 MPH the braking zones mandate that you trail brake, and the good drivers do.

The only time I've really trail braked in a kart besides if I've really needed to scrub extra speed off is when driving a 125 shifter with front brakes. There's more incentive then since the weight is moving forwards you can use it to your advantage.

There's many different ways to drive out there, that's just the way I drive.

Quote from keiran :

If there was an advantage in speed to your 'zero steer' professional drivers would be doing it. They are there to get the maximum they can from themselves and machinery.

I just said... it's very hard on tires. Their tires have to last as long as possible. Thus, over the course of hours, it is faster not to use it.

All the fast drivers I've ever watched use my theory (in karting). We run right next to a professional national every month, with drivers spending upwards of $100,000 with a few being paid to drive, and many of them go to the world finals (2 of my coaches did). I've watched how it's done right.

Quote :

You don't need to be smooth to be fast

Tosh. If you said that in my school you'd get a smack on the mouth.

Quote from MadCat360 :

I just said... it's very hard on tires. Their tires have to last as long as possible. Thus, over the course of hours, it is faster not to use it.

Quote from MadCat360 :

The problem with zero steer, and why touring car and F1 drivers don't try to use it, is because of two reasons:

1. chasing zero steer will make you inconsistent.

2. true slip angle equilibrium is hard on tires.

Quote :

All the fast drivers I've ever watched use my theory (in karting). We run right next to a professional national every month, with drivers spending upwards of $100,000 with a few being paid to drive, and many of them go to the world finals (2 of my coaches did). I've watched how it's done right.

I'm not doubting that, but I very much doubt that all the fast drivers drive with the same identical style... I can safely say that I notice a difference between most drivers in the way they take a corner, maybe ever so slightly but there is always a few who stand out.

Maybe that just comes from the fact I spend 20/30 hours a week at my work watching, helping and teaching people how to kart.

Quote :

Tosh. If you said that in my school you'd get a smack on the mouth.

That's why I don't go to a race school, don't see the need to be taught a bunch of theory by people who weren't good enough themselves to get a professional drive.

http://karting1.co.uk/braking-karting.htm

In that video, to do it your way you'd have to brake earlier and use more steering to get the kart to the apex. Where as stomping the brakes briefly helps you steer the kart to the apex whilst scrubing speed off as you get it a bit sideways.

I'm not here to argue with you, merely pointing out that in my opinion there is no one style better than the other. They all have pros and cons. A more aggressive driver will carry more speed into the corner and scrub it off through the friction of the tyres. Smoother ones will carry less speed in but more through the apex, just whatever floats your boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO3sBulXpVw

Quote from keiran :

I'm not here to argue with you

Fair enough.

another question, how much does weight and height affect the performance of the kart? i'm 16, 6ft1 and 12 stone 4...will this be as big a disadvantage as i'm suspecting?

Quote from oli17 :

another question, how much does weight and height affect the performance of the kart? i'm 16, 6ft1 and 12 stone 4...will this be as big a disadvantage as i'm suspecting?

Yes.

It depends: if the competition you're entering has weight requirements then you may be at an advantage to the lighter guys who would have to add ballast which is static as opposed to your own body weight that you can use.

Quote from IDUI :

It depends: if the competition you're entering has weight requirements then you may be at an advantage to the lighter guys who would have to add ballast which is static as opposed to your own body weight that you can use.

it doesn't

Quote from IDUI :

It depends: if the competition you're entering has weight requirements then you may be at an advantage to the lighter guys who would have to add ballast which is static as opposed to your own body weight that you can use.

I had to add 30kgs or so of lead to my kart to bring me up to weight, I'd actually say it was probably a slight advantage. We set the kart up on scales, kept the weight low down and balanced the kart as best as possible left to right. We actually had different holes on the seat to move the weight about. In the wet we used to raise it higher up on the back of the seat.

But in hire karting, I'd say weight is a bit of a disadvantage. Our track and karts at work don't have a huge difference between people who are 3/5 stone of a difference. Tracks you accelerate a lot then I'd say you'd lose quite a bit.

I drive in Junior TKM and having to add lead weight is DEFINETLY an advantage IMO. I'm about 2kg overweight without any ballast at all, but the people having to add lead seem to run rings around us. We have a 3 tier restriction system, and so it may be cock ups in the restriction amount, but IMO, it's quite probably the weight.

Quote from keiran :

I had to add 30kgs or so of lead to my kart to bring me up to weight, I'd actually say it was probably a slight advantage. We set the kart up on scales, kept the weight low down and balanced the kart as best as possible left to right. We actually had different holes on the seat to move the weight about. In the wet we used to raise it higher up on the back of the seat.

But in hire karting, I'd say weight is a bit of a disadvantage. Our track and karts at work don't have a huge difference between people who are 3/5 stone of a difference. Tracks you accelerate a lot then I'd say you'd lose quite a bit.

I agree with all your points. I was referring specifically to indoor hire kart competitions that require the drivers to add weight. In my case this meant adding 30kg(the maximum) only to the left side of the kart, as drivers had to weigh 95kg. The track being mostly rights handers, as they almost always are, this meant huge bounce issues as the grip improved. Small mistakes at certain turns would make the kart go crazy making it tougher to be consistent.

Otherwise as you say lighter guys at indoors twisty tracks definitely have an advantage. Which is why I'm surprised at OP's response, though perhaps weight is not an issue at the combo he will be driving.

Quote from IDUI :

Otherwise as you say lighter guys at indoors twisty tracks definitely have an advantage. Which is why I'm surprised at OP's response, though perhaps weight is not an issue at the combo he will be driving.

what do you mean? i thought i said weight would be an issue - lighter, smaller guys were going much faster than me...

google "streatham kart raceway" (or youtube to see some of the track), and look at the layout and tell me if you think it's important please.

Well it all comes down to this. If you have to put lead to be at the minimum weight of the championship (I believe that) you are at a disadvantage to the other racers because its static and you cant move your body to cope with an issue such as making the inside rear wheel lift by simply moving to the right. If your body is heavier you can make a bigger difference on handling. On the other hand you do get better balance with lead because you can put the kart down on scales and get on it and get someone to put the lead in the right places till its balanced.

If it's a championship where you don't have a minimum weight and basicly you can be racing someone who weighs 50kg while you weigh 65kg then yeah you are at a dissadvantage for sure.

As for the height, it shouldn't be too much of a problem once again if its your kart. Just try to make the seat lean back as far as you can. It shouldn't be too much of a dissadvantage unless its outdoors and a really windy day where you have to tuck in some straights to fight the wind.

Quote from oli17 :

what do you mean? i thought i said weight would be an issue - lighter, smaller guys were going much faster than me...

google "streatham kart raceway" (or youtube to see some of the track), and look at the layout and tell me if you think it's important please.

The effect of weight difference depends on the track and karts. I hope that those in charge of the competition you're entering have considered this. I think they would have received enough complains by now if the weight did matter greatly.

Is this correct?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv5i5u6PL_M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czxn2vK9EIU (starts at about 3:00)

As an example the indoor track I ran at was much narrower and twistier then the one in those clips. It also had at least two bends where you had to either slow down significantly or throw the rear around. During the competitions the layout was often changed to include very difficult triple chicanes.
The difference between a guy weighing 58kg(9 stone 2) and one of 76kg(12 stone) was about 0.200, IF(big if) they ran fairly equal karts. They're brothers and had been driving there for around two years, also consistently owned the track record no matter the layout which was altered about every 4 months.

Even if the difference in weight is there, the difference in handling and engine between the "good" karts and the rest is often greater then the difference in weight. Don't worry about it too much if you cannot do anything about it, your skill is what matters most here still (how you adapt to the kart for example).

Btw, I think your height is an advantage, at least from my experience of public karts that are suppose to suit most drivers, as the driving position usually suits those who are taller then average. Unless there's the option to slide the seat, in which case use it to change the karts balance to suit you(most probably as far forward as you find comfortable.

Quote from keiran :

I had to add 30kgs or so of lead to my kart to bring me up to weight, I'd actually say it was probably a slight advantage. We set the kart up on scales, kept the weight low down and balanced the kart as best as possible left to right. We actually had different holes on the seat to move the weight about. In the wet we used to raise it higher up on the back of the seat.

My mechanic, when he was 16, had to fill his frame with lead shot to make weight.

I'm quite light so I have to run with lead bars in a rack on the back of my seat and a small weight under the seat. All told I think it's about 45 pounds. I actually set faster lap times with the weight in... without it I can't put the power down on the exits.

woop, i got through

ok, so i was 19th out of 26, which i'm a bit gutted about, but i'm pretty sure they were all regulars and i've only been 5 times, but i've decided that i would actually commit a murder to be able to race karts :P

how did you lot start out?

if it helps i'm 16, 6'1 and about 12 stone 3. i'd would like a class that's as cheap as possible and where the results aren't based on the person with the biggest wallet!

it won't definitely happen but i think if i nag enough my mum might cave in.

also, does anyone have any idea of the costs etc. of racing?

thanks

Pro-Karts are Cheap and Based on Skill

But they are slow as F*CK

i am 8th of 10 but its the first time i'd been karting, never mind that track, in about 6 years. i went the other day and beat my pb by .3 which makes me just under 6 tenths off the lap record now. Looking forward to sunday for sure

Quote from oli17 :

ok, so i was 19th out of 26, which i'm a bit gutted about, but i'm pretty sure they were all regulars and i've only been 5 times, but i've decided that i would actually commit a murder to be able to race karts :P

how did you lot start out?

if it helps i'm 16, 6'1 and about 12 stone 3. i'd would like a class that's as cheap as possible and where the results aren't based on the person with the biggest wallet!

it won't definitely happen but i think if i nag enough my mum might cave in.

also, does anyone have any idea of the costs etc. of racing?

thanks

Choose another sport then mate Motorsport is inherently expensive, so anyone with cash can merely practise more than you and hire the best mechs/coaches.

All you can do is work your absolute nuts off to get the cash to compete. All this 'level playing' field stuff is a myth. While I do like some classes that try to adhere to this principle, the reality of racing is that with more money you are at a distinct advantage to those without.

is there a class that sounds like it's anything like what i want?