Quote from 5haz :

It means that not everybody gets to become an f1 world champion, there is no such thing as undeserving world champions, everyone who gets one has worked hard enough to deserve it.

Well OK. I have no idea if you're still trying to argue with me or not, but I said this so I don't exactly see what your problem is with my point of view.

Quote from pik_d :

Button certainly deserved it the most out of anyone this season, that doesn't really make him a great champion though.

All champions are great, being great is one of the requirements for being a champion.

There seems to be this club of people who will pick holes in a driver's championship win no matter what, for reasons unknown, that is my problem.

can we just end this Jenson and Hamilton hating, PLEASE. End it. Hate Grosjean, he DESERVES IT!

Why? With no testing, and much less experience, he's doing as good a job (or better) than the feckwit he replaced. With a winter testing plan he could be much better.

Quote from pik_d :

So McLaren got a new title sponsor in 2007 because of Lewis that was worth $40 Million. They had a title sponsor in 2006 that was giving them money, no idea how much, but that means that they did not simply gain $40M from 2006 to 2007. Who knows, West may have been giving them more than $40M, they didn't switch sponsors because of money, they switched because of the Tobacco advertising ban. I certainly don't know,

Apparently. Their title sponsor in 2006 was the Emirates group, not West. Either way they needed a new title sponsor in 2007 for whatever reason and they took one from their biggest rival - that's a coup, and it was directly related to their driver line-up. They also pulled in Santander because they had Alonso.

Quote from pik_d :

Of course there are sponsors that follow drivers, but you'd be foolish to say that the sponsors don't also take into account the WCC as well. It's pretty unbelievable that your argument is that $40M from Vodafone > $6M for 1st-2nd spread and that's basically it. Those are only two numbers in a very huge game that is the F1 economy, you can't really extrapolate anything from them without knowing a lot more relevant information.

I don't think it requires a huge leap of logic to assume that potential sponsors consider WCC titles to be less important. We're not here arguing whether Brawn deserved the title this year are we? We're talking about Button, just like everybody else is. Do you think the marketing departments of multinationals are unaware of that?

It's all very well you bandying dismissive remarks around about how funding an F1 team is some ethereal discipline that none of us can begin to understand, but by your own logic we could just as easily assume that I've got it right. Maybe you can give some suggestion as to why I might be wrong, and in the meantime let's assume I'm not.

Quote from 5haz :

All champions are great, being great is one of the requirements for being a champion.

There seems to be thsi club of people who will pick holes in a driver's championship win no matter what, for reasons unknown, that is my problem.

Agreed.. No matter how much of daddys money you've used, how lucky you've been, etc etc, you still need to be great to be a champion, which is what Button's proved this year.. And his other rivals (Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton, Schumacher, etc etc) to name a few over the years have shown too.

Did anyone say Hamilton? I'M IN FOR IT!

Every thread end personal :/
In before the lock
No one got any clue what a forum is, this is a thread about Brazilian Gp
TALK ABOUT THAT THEN, not about Grosjeans father being lucky with money or something ( quick read 50 post in 20 sec, so i migth have mistaken)

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Apparently. Their title sponsor in 2006 was the Emirates group, not West. Either way they needed a new title sponsor in 2007 for whatever reason and they took one from their biggest rival - that's a coup, and it was directly related to their driver line-up. They also pulled in Santander because they had Alonso.

Sorry, I cocked that up a bit. West had to leave in 2005, not 2006. My point still stands that the $40 Million did not replace $0. Under normal circumstances (obviously excluding Brawn for being "new kids" and Renault with their shenanigans) everyone has a title sponsor in some form. (Red Bull are effectively their own title sponsor). But hey, snarky quote manipulation will win the debate, right?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't think it requires a huge leap of logic to assume that potential sponsors consider WCC titles to be less important. We're not here arguing whether Brawn deserved the title this year are we? We're talking about Button, just like everybody else is. Do you think the marketing departments of multinationals are unaware of that?

It's also pretty unquestionable that Brawn did deserve it more than anyone else. They were more dominant early on, fairly competitive when they weren't dominant, and incredibly durable and reliable all season long.

Anyone who thinks BrawnGP didn't clearly deserve it would be a fool, where anyone who was let down by Buttons performance in the second half of the season would be fairly justified. He did of course have the best season overall, so saying he didn't deserve it from the season overall would of course also be the claim of a fool.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's all very well you bandying dismissive remarks around about how funding an F1 team is some ethereal discipline that none of us can begin to understand, but by your own logic we could just as easily assume that I've got it right.

I also didn't say that we couldn't begin to understand, I said that you're only taking two pieces of the puzzle and drawing the whole picture. Stop straw-manning.

By my own logic we could what now? Please explain that one. In return, by your own logic $40M is only 10% of what McLaren spent in 2008 so it is entirely insignificant. Obviously that's not how it works because they need all the money they can get to get to, or stay at, the top.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Maybe you can give some suggestion as to why I might be wrong, and in the meantime let's assume I'm not.

No, let's not.


Also I just now noticed this post when going back and looking for where you entered the argument:

Quote from thisnameistaken :

The teams further down the order care about it, but the teams fighting for the WDC don't, so obviously it's much less important. Teams can make way more money from sponsorship opportunities arising from the publicity of winning the WDC than any financial reward for winning the WCC, TV money etc.

We posted at roughly the same time and I never saw it as my post started a new page. I will agree that the teams working with smaller budgets and further down the field (Force India to name one) do care more about the WCC, but to say the ones at the top don't just seems silly. Why would they not care about it? What purpose does that serve? Both drivers are in the same car so it's not as if they take resources from one side of the garage to make the other car faster.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why? With no testing, and much less experience, he's doing as good a job (or better) than the feckwit he replaced. With a winter testing plan he could be much better.

on the other hand kobayashi set the bar for unexperienced newcommers with no testing a whole lot higher than alguersuari or grosjean managed to jump to

yay according to google and wikipedia i only misspelled one of them

Quote :

but to say the ones at the top don't just seems silly. Why would they not care about it? What purpose does that serve? Both drivers are in the same car so it's not as if they take resources from one side of the garage to make the other car faster.

Williams famously don't give a damn about the drivers championship.

Quote :

on the other hand kobayashi set the bar for unexperienced newcommers with no testing a whole lot higher than alguersuari or grosjean managed to jump to

I thought he did brilliantly, right up until he didn't.

Quote from Shotglass :

on the other hand kobayashi set the bar for unexperienced newcommers with no testing a whole lot higher than alguersuari or grosjean managed to jump to

yay according to google and wikipedia i only misspelled one of them

Very true. It'll be interesting to see who ends up with the better career. Kob () had a Montoya-esque debut. Maybe the cars ease of control has an effect? e.g. The Ferrari is harder to drive than the Force India, maybe the Renault and Torro Rosso are harder than the Toyota to extract laptime from.

But it's a good point you raise. I still don't think we've seen the best from Alg and Gro ().

To be fair Kobayashi did do a little bit of winter testing before this season - but still, the best debutant this season by far. I like him, came straight in and showed no quarter to the WDC-in-waiting, he apparently has the expanded ball collection of a karter

To be honest I think the Nakajima incident was fair game, the look on Nakajima's face after the crash wasn't of anger, it looked more of embarassment. I think Nakajima just didn't see it coming everyone else did, tho.

Funny, because on the live TV we didn't even see the beginning of the incident until much later, so how you managed to see it coming I don't know.

Unless you meant that you'd seen Kob's driving earlier in the race? Well, Nakajima doesn't tend to watch the live feed whilst in a GP, so he didn't have the benefit of hindsight beforehand.

There was a replay, Kobayashi was drifting to the inside and Nakajima went for an ever-closing gap.

So you saw it coming AFTER it had occured? How on earth was that meant to help Nakajima?

Quote :

I think Nakajima just didn't see it coming everyone else did, tho.

Quote from tristancliffe :

So you saw it coming AFTER it had occured? How on earth was that meant to help Nakajima?

A gap that is closing is not a gap to go for... Stop twisting my words when you know exactly what I mean. Yes of course Nakajima can't physically know what we know, but it's not the point.

Quote from BlueFlame :

A gap that is closing is not a gap to go for... Stop twisting my words when you know exactly what I mean. Yes of course Nakajima can't physically know what we know, but it's not the point.

Well what is? The only racers who knew how Kob drove was drivers trying to get round him. Up to that point Nakajima hadn't had the luxury of seeing how defensive and aggressively Kob drove.

Unless his team told him over the radio how Kob was driving, he was totally oblivious to it. But lets be honest, Nakajima has no place in F1. If he doesn't score a point in the final race he has gone a whole season pointless and there is no excuse for that, more so when a driver who lost his seat months ago is still out scoring him (agreed, it is only by 2 points, but 2 is more than 0).

Burn Kimi burn !

When I say Nakajima saw it coming, it has many variables but you people seem to think I assume he can has teleportation televisual skills. Kobayashi is Nakajima's arch enemy, and a car that is closing to one side of the track gives you an acute angle to fit the car into, which was a crash anyway, sure Kamui jinked a little bit, but I don't see why he should be blamed for it, when drivers have jinked before and the guy behind backed off, and nobody said anything so I don't think he should be blamed for catching another driver out.

I wouldn't say it is all Kob's fault either. He has a few bad habits from lower Formula, but most new drivers do, they will pass as he gets used to F1. Nakajima was caught out by not expecting Kob to squeeze him as much as he did.

Made for bloody good racing when Buttons was trying to get round though, even if at times I'm sure poo came out of one hole and many words not fit for live TV out of another.

Kobayashi really impressed me, it's a shame there was an incident involving him, cos he had a pretty flawless race up til then.

Kobo did only move across once though, he's entitled to do so is he not?

Quote from DejaVu :

Kobo did only move across once though, he's entitled to do so is he not?

Yep

Quote from BlueFlame :

Yep

Not if the car behind has overlap on you though...

Edit: +1 to sinbad, personally I think Webber should have gotten a drive through for his defending against Raikkonen. The FIA / stewards are a joke when it comes to penalty consistancy. Yes defend, but do it well in advance of the driver behind getting too near, otherwise you can't move like he did. Similarly Barrichello left his defending too late and not by enough against Hamilton which I believe is how the puncture occured. Button had an awesome race though, kudos to him.