Why is it every thread I look at now has the same debate in it? :doh:

To be honest I think there is absolutely no such thing as an unbiased organisation/source/whatever else, if somebody is interested in a matter then its virtually guarenteed they will be biased one way or another.

Its up to you and your conscience to filter out the reliable stuff from the crap. But then you'll probrably be biased too.

And so going round labeling various organisations/sources biased or unbiased is ultimately pointless, because your own view of what is biased and what is not could be biased. :doh:

Quote from Becky Rose :

My point is that whilst immigration is high, I do not see it as a problem. Why is it wrong to take immigrants?

It isn't wrong to take imigrants.
Having an uncontrollable income of humans you can't support as an economic and social system is a problem. Ethnicity doesn’t matter here. It’s that fundamental reason… the very one that causes that phenomenon. Low quality of life. This is the main reason that makes immigrants leave their country.

What’s wrong with people who have not exactly the same criteria of living as you do? There is nothing wrong about the people. It’s the non intended, by any simple civilian, side effects. For “them” a slight change for the better is enough. Even if by your standards there is a quality drop of your life. If people tolerant at low quality of life become the majority then there is no way anything will go forward. Just a simplistic example that might sound silly but it doesn’t seem that silly when you are directly affected by this.
At “their” country they might get paid the equivalent of 200$ per month for the same job that in your country you get paid 2000$ For an immigrant having 5times the money he was getting at his country will be a bless. For you that kind of payment would be 50% down. So be it you might say… we live in tough times. If he can live with half the money, I can live too right? I just have to quit the frivolous spending on useless things being the silly consumer I am. So how exactly you cross a live between the frivolous spending life and a basic quality life? What is and what isn’t necessary to live? Is having a car essential? Going out with your friends? Having a hobby? What of these affects quality of life and what’s unnecessary? Is there really a subjective way to tell?

Then there comes the problem of just pure numbers. Again I say this is not matter of ethnicity. A country is built having public services that have a specific capacity. I don’t really know eg how strong is health care system in England, but having sudden waves of millions of people coming in, might stress it out to a point that some services might get restricted. Is this quality drop really necessary? I mean can’t we all work for higher capacity services? Yes we can. Is there a limit though on how fast this can improve? Yes there is. So there should be a limit of how many your country can afford to take care. There might be some ways to limit legal immigration, but what about illegal immigrants? No they aren’t problematic people. We are all human but where exactly are they going to live? Will you leave them die on streets? Now you can’t do that… So you are forced to take whatever number of immigrants it happens to come to you and try to help them all. So should you be heartless and just leave anyone outside your borders die? Hell no! But this doesn’t mean that this entire situation doesn’t cause problems.
Again. The problem is not the immigrant as a single unit. It’s the whole phenomenon.

This problematic situation is a quite obvious in countries like where I live (Greece) where there is one of the first spot any immigrant from east and south east lands to, trying to pass into Europe. Greece was already a country with problematic economy having insufficient public services way before immigrants started flowing in waves of millions right after the east block failed. Now after 15+years waves and waves of immigrants keep flowing after the resent unstable condition in Middle East.
All this in a bleeding to death economy with nearly no industry or anything significant to export in order to balance what we import.
Is this the immigrant’s fault that we are so useless as a country? Not any more than anyone else’s who lives at this country. But here comes another problem:
Political awareness.
I know that politician’s are not trusted in any country or system. This is a global fact. But here in Greece, corruption is so obvious that no one cares about it anymore. There is nothing that can be done here regarding the government owned mechanism without nearly anyone involved taking a bribe at some point. So no wonder when nearly nothing that got promised gets accomplished. And here we go to the resent trend that matters to political parties… The main goal by the strong political parties is to be likable in eyes of the less fortunate resent passengers that have arrived here potentially being future voters.
No political party being in government actually try’s to solve any problem that troubles the entire population living in Greece with immigrants included. Anyone cares just about how open-minded and caring about “human rights” looks to be. And because any action brings a reaction, there are always some yelling at the opposite side the “get all you strangers out of here” theme… giving actualy a reason for the other sided parties to brag even more about how caring about immigrants are.
And you know what? All this really works… people get manipulated that way, especially those who lived most of their lives not knowing if they are going to eat something the day that follows.

Now let’s see what some (a tiny part of any country’s population) who got the economic or the political power have to benefit from this situation.
Those who used to have a lower quality of life are less prone to demand anything more.
Easily manipulated mass with limited political awareness judging mostly based on self preservation.
The obvious… “Cheaper working hands”.
…This is really a win win situation for those being in power to take advantage of this phenomenon.
Not going to make a clear point here. Just food for thought.

Again. Any immigrant as a unit is not the problem. But being companionate and helpful does not need to make you not acknowledging that there is a problem in global scale that moves around in the form of massive immigration dropping our quality of life. (or just wait till side effects hit you)
And instead of giving only pity alms to the less fortunate that are forced to leave their country, why not trying to avoid causing problems (wars and/or economical manipulation) to these countries in the first place so they can be developed and support their own population.

Quote from kaynd :

Quote.

A very intelligent post that makes some very valid points.

The 'will work for next to nothing' argument doesn't really work though as we have minimum wage laws.

Quote from Crashgate3 :

The 'will work for next to nothing' argument doesn't really work though as we have minimum wage laws.

Sorry but i (and im certain many others) cannot afford to work for minimum wage.

*Do* you work for minimum wage?

If you think sweat shops are the exclusive domain of places like China, you are being naive. Not all unregistered immigrants come here to be legally employed, and some of them don't come here to employ others legally either. Minimum wage laws only apply when your business is showing up on "the radar".

What if every country opened up it's borders completely?

Would there be masses of people moving around the world bleeding countries dry? Would it eventually all settle with all countries balanced nicely?

Quote from SamH :

If you think sweat shops are the exclusive domain of places like China, you are being naive. Not all unregistered immigrants come here to be legally employed, and some of them don't come here to employ others legally either. Minimum wage laws only apply when your business is showing up on "the radar".

Doesn't even have to be illegal employment. Just let them work as offcially declared "freelancers" and you pretty much circumvent all the wage and social regulations completely legally.

On Thursday's Today program they had someone from the think tank Reform on, talking about cutting middle class benefits (child allowance etc). Their threshold for becoming middle class was earning over £15,000 a year. Feet in a bucket and head under the handle time.

I felt sorry for Nick Griffin, he's scared of dark-skinned people, scared of Muslims, scared of Jews, scared of gays, I'm surprised he ever leaves the house, poor little xenophobic ****wit that he is.

To those of you who "agree with some of his policies"; which ones? Or do you actually not agree with any of their policies, or not even know what their policies are, but what you really mean is you're just a bit grumpy about immigration?

Quote from v1rg0 :

The BNP policy is to cease mass immigration and offer voluntary repatriation to people wanting to return to their nations of origin. The national papers in particular are guilty of repeating the lie that every non-white will be deported at first sight. Not only is that a logistical fantasy, it’s not their policy.

We already have a policy of voluntary repatriation. We've always had a policy of voluntary repatriation. And there are currently more foreign nationals leaving the UK at the moment than there are entering, so problem solved.

If you think the BNP is going to rely on all non-whites leaving the country voluntarily you're remarkably naive. Logistical fantasy or not, that's what they intend to achieve, it's the only reason they have a political party. Griffin himself said he wants to make the UK population ethnically identical to what it was in 1948 - he wants to live in a ****ing museum.

Quote from duke_toaster :

If I remember correctly Question Time audiences are intentionally picked to be representative.

Well they had a studio audience of maybe 200, so having even a single BNP supporter would have been outrageously disproportionate.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Don't believe me? See for yourself.

hm what these rubbish not even worth whiping your bum with papers have to say about the bbc sounds remarkably like what our local karting halfwit does

Quote from v1rg0 :

It is? The Office for National Statistics recently stated that our population is set to rise by 10 million by 2033, largely because of migration.

"just over two-thirds of the projected increase in the population over the period 2008 to 2033 is either directly or indirectly due to migration (45 per cent directly attributable to future migration and a further 23 per cent indirectly due to future migration through its effect on natural change)."

You can read the full report here:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pproj1009.pdf

That might happen, I don't know what the future will bring any better than they do, but currently more people are leaving than arriving.

Quote from v1rg0 :

Yet you are not making any noise at all about what is being leaked about the Labour policy today? If this is indeed true we have at least two parties doing race politics in this country, with one in power.

I'm not supporting the current government, but that story sounds like a load of bollocks.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

there are currently more foreign nationals leaving the UK at the moment than there are entering, so problem solved.

Where have you got that information from?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I'm not supporting the current government, but that story sounds like a load of bollocks.

...curiously backed up by what has actually happened?

Quote from andybarsblade :

Where have you got that information from?

It was on the news a couple of weeks back.

Quote from mookie427 :

...curiously backed up by what has actually happened?

Maybe it's true then, either way I live in a Liberal seat, I voted Liberal in the last two general elections, I don't support and I'm not responsible for Labour party immigration policy. Consequently I'm not interested in having an argument about it.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It was on the news a couple of weeks back.

Link or bollox?

"The pantomime comes early this year. While the focus is on this malarky the UK is getting robbed hand over fist by financial institutions and the politicians that support them.
Quick, put the villain on the stage front and center before anyone starts asking some difficult questions.
The country and people are utterly ****ed beyond belief".


Direct quote from someone on CiF today.