Lighter wheels are just as bad as heavier ones unless you change the spring and damping rates of the suspension to compensate. Even if you are looking for a higher system resonance the system will become overdamped if you reduce the sprung mass. So basically unless the system was underdamped and undersprung initially, then you've just made it worse.
As has been said the suspension system is actually a combination of :
Tyre + Wheel + Spring + Damper + Suspension levers/arms etc + Bushes + Vehicle body
Change any one of those in isolation and you change the performance properties of the suspension system. So unless you know what the baseline performance figures are empirically + where you want those figures to be, (assuming you even know how the various factors actually affect handling in the first place !), + what you need to change and how to get there + can purchase parts that have the correct attributes you are essentially making a stab in the dark as to whether you are actually changing anything in a positive way.
Of course there is always the suck it and see anecdotal evidence of others that have made various changes to guide you. But given that peoples opinions on how things have changed is completely subjective, its actually almost impossible to know if you've actually made anything better. Might feel better, but that doesn't mean it actually is better, (with the exception of comfort of course obviously).
I have yet to see a single forum etc where someone has done repeatable and consitant measurements of how their vehicle was performing before and after making a change to show if it actually worked or not. That's in any conditions, let alone controlled ones.
Closest I have seen to this happening is motorcycle magazines doing tyre tests where they measured corner speed and lap times for various makes/models of tyre on the same motorcycle.
Do you really think they drive every model of car in new, old and 'upgraded' condition? No, mostly they'll get a request from a reseller or a customer, with a few drawings and sketches (or maybe even have parts of the car shipped over to make the 'kit'), make them, and sell them.
Even on a 'quality' product, they nearly always won't drive the car themselves, just plug in some vague numbers to a computer, and wait to see what feedback they get - especially from the initial customer.
They might cost more, and that might be down to better seals, better life, more adjustability or whatever. But I doubt Bilstein actually do much testing, if any, on most aftermarket kits.
I know that the above aftermarket parts suppliers work closely with both original manufacturer with regards to certain models. Sure they don't test every single car their units are matched for, but the units themselves are *highly* tested. If you think Greddy just throw together turbo kits without actually installing them on a car and doing some testing, you don't know this market very well. Yes it is on the owness of the purchaser to then ensure an adequate fuel and timing map is setup to make the most of the turbo, but this is solely the responsibility of the person building the car.
That is a very different experience i've seen with high quality manufacturers. Brembo for instance certainly do not just plug numbers into a computer and hope they get it right. They spend a very large sum of money on testing configurations, compounds, temperature limitations etc.
Bilstein spend a lot of time working with various race teams and car manufacturers to ensure their kits are well designed.
Have a guess who designed and supplied the dampers?
I agree with you that a large sum of people purchase aftermarket parts, throw them on the car and slap a sticker on the door announcing they are "Tein enabled" without spending the time and effort to ensure the car is setup correctly. I also agree there are a lot of aftermarket manufacturers who produce poor quality items, often using parts better suited for farm machinery, and sell them at a premium.
But the leading aftermarket manufacturers produce very high quality products and often work very closely with the original car creator and race teams. I was simply pointing out your very large sweeping statement.
Same as well, well, technically mine is a eunos roadster, but essentially the same car.
I have kept the spokey 14" bbs rims that it came with though, as they only weigh 9lbs (4kg) each, so nice and light, although i did spray em white as they were, well, fooked really, no chrome edges anymore, just a mid grey brakedusty set with scuffs, so something had to be done lol.
The only ball ache i have is getting decent branded rubber in the standard 185.60/14 size, as this thing does NOT like budget tyres one little bit.
I have settled for p6000's on the back and unfortunately, some cheap budgets on the front for now, as i had the budgets on the back for about 2 days before i realised that i didnt want to die when using the throttle in the rain, the LSD liked to kick the back out unexpectadly to scare me, its much better with the pirellis on the back now.
I may go up to 195/55/14 once summer gets here though.
Don't compare a manufacturer 'sorted' premium turbo installation with a kit available off the internet. It's highly unlikely a kit for an MX-5 exists that is lag free. The BBT ones had lag, and they were good enough for Mazda to offer a warranty with and sell in their dealers.
I have Konis on my race car. They were designed for the car (or the car was designed for them). That does NOT mean that a Koni kit for my MX-5 will be any good. My car is quite common, so chances are someone at Koni has driven one. But they won't have done thousands of miles of testing of that particular application. Especially as the aftermarket scene is littered with silly wheels, silly anti-roll bars etc. What are the chances that Koni's guessed setup (and it is little more than a guess in the aftermarket world) will work properly with YOUR choice of other modifications?
It's all well and good Peugeot or Porsche using Brembo stuff on a standard car, with known design parameters in 'as-new' conditions, it's another thing to bolt on a set of Brembos (brakes are a bad choice for this example, but pretend I'm now talking about dampers or something) and hope that your soggy, rotting chassis, with whatever else you've done to it will work.
You might get lucky. You might also choose a car on which they did happen to do quite a lot of testing. But chances are you won't.
Racing doesn't improve the breed that directly. Racing improves racing, and racing improves (eventually) production road vehicles. Racing (say in F1) doesn't improve 15 year old cars.
Turbo people are, actually, more likely to test their products. They don't want engine/turbo blowups. But as long as the dampers/springs don't
collapse, then the handling isn't really the problem of, say, Koni.
You say Brembo don't guess. Phone them tomorrow and ask them to make a kit for something REALLY obscure. Do you really think they'll buy one, make the kit, subject it to thousands of miles of testing in all conditions, refining the product. No, they'll plug some numbers into a laptop, find the closest thing they already make, and sell it to you. That's not bespoke, that's closer to bodge. Again, brakes are a bad example, because they very very rarely need upgrading on the road, unless you double the engine power or something.
Phone up Koni. Like I did last week to arrange a 'kit' for a classic car (as the 40 year old ones are a bit knackered these days, so we needed a replacement we can sell to the world). They need drawings of the originals (or photos if you're an eejit that can't draw straight lines and circles), data on unsprung weight, sprung weight, travel, frequencies/rates. And then they make something 'about right'. Often they want to dyno the old (40 year old) dampers and match the new ones to that, failing to understand that we don't want them matched, as the old ones are shot.
The world of Car Modding is a lot less professional, scientific and elegant than you believe.
I use budget tyres on mine most of the time (current ones are actually P6000s because they were on offer, and cheaper than budgets not on offer ), and it's fine and dandy.
I think its the limited slip diff that makes it worse, plus it does need the tracking and alignment sorted out, the back isnt set right, the bottoms of the wheels stick out like the car is squatting, and the front is bad as well, the toe out is ridiculous ATM, if i put the steering wheel so one front wheel is straight then i need to move the steering wheel literally a quarter of a turn before the other one is straight, majorly well out, hence why i have kept the budgets on the front for now, i would rather push the tread off the inside of cheap tyres!
I agree, I was making the point that very low lag turbo solutions are more than available. The costs to getting one however is a different matter If you want a lag free forced induction solution for your MX5, super charge it.
This is getting into a rather silly amount of detail. I was bringing you to charge on the very wide statement you made... They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.
Koni make high quality suspension parts which the purchaser must use as part of a total suspension setup. Koni's setups when testing will typically reflect common use and as such give them confidence they will work with most applications.
I know many people in the aftermarket world, some are terrible, some are not. Names like Brembo, Tein, HKS, etc etc spend a lot money making sure they produce high quality parts for use. They are not trying to persuade idiots to buy high cost, low value product thats barely tested.
Tristan, you are wildly missing the point by a mile. Your initial statement was.. They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.
I just pulled you up on this saying that big brand names do a lot of testing and produce high quality. Of course if you stick 7000 GBP Brembo brakes on a rust bucket is a waste of time and money.
I disagree, many cars share the same platforms (Mazda MX6 and Ford Probe is a classic example) and the higher quality aftermarket manufacturers do a lot of testing on common brands of cars that are modified. Sure, buy a Renault Espace and even if you CAN find a suspension upgrade, I wouldn't expect miricles... but thats a stupid arguement to make.
I agree, where on earth are you going with this subject?
Yip, I agree... but that doesn't mean Koni do little testing. Koni spend a LOT of money on testing. Your initial statement, to which I am refering, was a pretty general one.
Oh boy, now you are getting into an area you demonstrate you have little experience in. Call up Brembo with the specs of your car, the performance parameters, and they will recommend what calipers and what hub/rotor combintation is ideal. They will know EXACTLY the specifications of that caliper working against the material of that rotor with specific pads. Now what the CUSTOMER has to do is make the appropriate changes to mount these components in a safe and relaible fashion. Brembo will not in anyway make claims about the CUSTOMERs application of these components.
Now if the customer has the engineering skills to put these pieces together in an effective manner? It sure aint a bodge, many fast road going and race cars have been built with bespoke kits. And the aftermarket company selling these products were not treating customers as idiots.
Sounds to me like Koni are therefore doing their best to understand your application of the product to your car in the most effective manner. Please tell me how this little story backs up your claim...
They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.
So you are the idiot that bought overpriced dampers that Koni rarely test?
I'm starting to you think you are either very stupid, or a bit of a troll or simply cannot read...
I agree that a high percentage of people modifying their cars thrown on products and don't spend significant time in setting up or understanding the true application of aftermarket parts.
But don't for one second think that the big brand names that are very successful in both racing and road components don't spend a lot of time testing these components. Thats simply bad business. It is also bad business to think your customers are idiots...
You would also be very surprised at the amount of engineering knowledge a lot of the experience and well known tuners have. Give Gary from AP Tuning a call, he's one of the more responsible tuners in the UK who educate those trying to make car modifications without understanding what they are doing. And better BRAKES on a road car that's had a power increase is a DEFINITE good idea.
Sorry Tristan, I simply can't let some of this go. That statement is SO wrong it's unbelievable.
When Nissan first released the 350Z in the UK I was invited by my local Nissan dealer to go for a day on the track with a bunch of totally factory standard 350Z's around Bedford Autodrome. After 4 laps I lost the front brakes, some of the other drivers were instructors from the race school. They also complained of very poor standard brakes...
So no, you are very wrong. With MOST road cars, one of the FIRST modifications you can make that will improve the performance of your road car is upgrading the brake system.
Yeah mine's a Roadster too, but I'm in the habit of saying MX-5 as it saves explaining
This is one reason I'm changing to 15s. There is much more choice of rubber and the prices are often the same or better too. I almost went for white wheels too as it happens but after much Photoshoppery I decided they're a bit too attention-seeking on a blue car for me (look the nuts on a white car though). I've not seen the BBS wheels done up in white before either.
Hmm. From that statement I think it's clear you're out of your depth on this topic Tristan - might be wise to step away...
Anyone who wants to modify their road car for higher performance one of the first things anyone should do is upgrade the brakes. There is no argument with that statement, emergency stops or not, if you want a better performing road car, get better brakes.
Well to be honest most factory tuning companies even have problems with reducing turbolag.. And if they can't do it to fx. a WRX STI, how are aftermarket tuners with MUCH less money going to do it?
IMO, even my Rotax engine has too much lag No way in hell I could live with a giant turbo.
no
as for the 2 people in here who either already have bought or want to buy larger wheels:
if you want a better performing road car dont buy a proton or corsa in the first place
Because the WRX STi, although designed for performance, also has to worry about maintenance and warranties. You want lower turbo lag? Fit an ECU or anti lag system or modify turbo vanes using either variable vanes... actually, someone I know wrote up this subject very well...
My point was that brakes you want for track use are very different for brakes you want for road use - you said after several laps the brakes started to fade, but your never going to be pushing them so hard so often on the road...
EDIT - And huge wheels, lowering and a Corsa? God no :S
Well true my example was on the track. But my point is that standard brake systems (calipers, brake lines, discs, pads etc) are good usually for one or two very hard stops, after that you incur temps that are quickly going to reduce your braking performance. Anyone "modding" their car is going to most likely be driving with a little more "spirit", and therefore one of the first modifications of value is the brakes.
But Tristan claimed.. Again, brakes are a bad example, because they very very rarely need upgrading on the road, unless you double the engine power or something.
Which simply isn't true and such an attitude has led to me passing many modified cars at track days simply because I can out brake them in the corners.
I agree with Jakg on this, a road car has very different brake needs to a car designed for the track. The brakes on my Mondeo fade after only a couple of hard braking stints, I doubt they'd even last a hard lap at a track. On the road however, unless I've just done a high speed emergency stop, I've got enough braking friction to lock the wheels if I so wish. So there would be zero benefit of me upgrading the brakes unless I wanted to start going to track days, or finding some nice windy hill roads to blat round (which, in a car that rolls like a ship and accelerates like ball of dung down a gentle hill, I won't be).
Agreed, but this rather long and convoluted conversation was around people modifying cars, and they typically are taking their car to a track and enjoying England's fine windy roads... Modern road cars, when used as road cars, have very good braking systems. But if you want to improve on that car's ability to perform, typically the order most tuner's i've worked with would suggest is...
Improve grip and road handling
Improve the ability to stop the car (which improves as part of the first item)
Don't worry. I'm not going to bother replying to every point you make - it's far too boring a conversation to bother. But I'll pick you up on a few...
Koni (say, but insert amost any other make if you like) sell dampers they've let accountants attack to people who don't actually need/benefit from the dampers they've bought at rather inflated "this kit will make you car awesome" prices. That is all. Yes, it's sweeping. Yes there will be exceptions. But in generally holds true.
Except that hundreds of factors determine the damping required. If you bolt on an F1 damper I bet it'd be rubbish on your car. Just because Koni make good dampers for some applications, doesn't mean they'll improve ANY application.
And most of those names cost a lot, don't really make that much difference (in most cases), and almost certainly aren't tested on the application you want it for.
But they don't test them on YOUR application. Koni (I'll stick with them for a bit) might spend Trillions on developing fancy new damping curves, in a product that will last 5000 years immersed in acid. But if the damping on your car is shit - because it was made for a standard car as new, and you've got a 10 year old, soggy version with stiffer bushes, shorter springs and lighter/heavier wheels - then it's all for nothing. And Koni (and other manufacturers) won't get anywhere near this level of testing (it would be silly if they tried), but in most cases, if you buy a Koni kit for a Suzuki Liana it's a fair bet Koni never fitted one to a Liana themselves.
Many cars do share the same platforms. Doesn't mean they use the same damper fitment, let alone the same damping rates...
Defending my opinion. You claim it's baseless nonsense by retorting with baseless nonsense.
Not not on specific applications. Which bit is too hard to understand. Koni spend a lot on developing dampers, and getting their installations spot on on the new <insert new car using Koni OEM dampers>. They don't do the same on a 15 year old car when Demon Tweeks ask if they can supply a few sets.
This is why I said braking was a poor choice of example. But even then, you can bolt on what you like, and it still might not be right. Too hard a pad. Too soft a pad. Too little heat capacity. Too much heat capacity. No testing on your application. Numbers from a laptop. As I said.
Sure, if you are clever and able enough to do the product development and testing yourself, then go right ahead. I do. Most modders don't.
The weld on some lugs in the right place. The actual dampers are just generic ones. They wanted to match the new ones to worn out ones. In which case, you might as well leave the worn out ones on. We sorted them out in the end though... There is another reply on this topic a bit further down I think.
Here we are. Yes. And No. Our main objective is to keep 40 year old Italian cars on the road and vaguely driveable/safe. We're not trying to improve on the original (that would be EASY with modern parts/technology/materials), but maintain the cars as close to 'standard' as we can. That is a lot harder.
Funny. I was thinking the same about you.
How many hours of testing did Bilstein put into making their budget damper upgrade on a 1995 Vauxhall Astra? One hour? Maybe 2? None? Sure, the damper itself might have been developed over a decent amount of time, costing a decent amount of money. But that doesn't mean they're not supplying generic dampers, customised at each end so they fit.
Indeed.
Most cars aren't meant to brake hard repeatedly. Or go on a track. That's taking a car outside it's design parameters. A Seat Leon's brakes are 5* times as good as they need to be for a life of a tens of thousands of road miles.
*numbers plucked from the ether.
One typo and I get mugged!
I have spent years driving spiritedly, on road and track in a variety of cars. The only car I've had to upgrade the brakes on is the same one, coincidentally, that the Koni dampers were made for - Dunlop brakes, on which the calipers flex instead of resisting piston loads.
Back to the track. We're talking road here. If you want to race your car, you'll upgrade parts. If you want to beat a Top Fuel car you'll upgrade the engine. That's just common sense, surely.
No worries, i'm out of energy on this one, i'll agree to disagree on a bunch of stuff. Sorry for any overly rude comments, been a long day and i've got a lot of time spent with quality tuners who modify quite amazing road cars.
Plus I just want to get my hands on the new LFS physics/tracks and cars. I'm beyond patience now waiting for an update... but hell this subject gets discussed every second on this battle zone of a forum
