+1
no F9 & F10 except pits
early starts & penalties
dont allow major setup changes between events (quali-race)
no low(hi)-rev diod in stock cars
maybe allow reset car after 10s
etc..
+1
no F9 & F10 except pits
early starts & penalties
dont allow major setup changes between events (quali-race)
no low(hi)-rev diod in stock cars
maybe allow reset car after 10s
etc..
Same question, not about reducing chat, but why limit to 3.... Ah! I just got it
. Chat binds for neccessary chat as "pit in" "pit out" etc. Yeah, I was going to say no chat what-so-ever, but the pit announcements may be needed.I think that turning off chat is a horrible idea, and that "pit in" and "pit out" messages are unnecessary. Without chat, how would racers communicate with each other or with the server admin? How does turning off the chat feature make the game better?
Until LFS supports full pit crew modeling, team radios, etc. chat is necessary.
Until LFS supports full pit crew modeling, team radios, etc. chat is necessary.
The list above is what we are ALL AFTER
A few questions
Why no auto clutch? Forcing people with 2 peddles to use a button on the wheel for clutch it more real than auto clutch. Is this one really needed?
On closed server after qualifying ends. Would this not be better, forced spectate on join. You can join the NEXT race but remain in spectate mode until it starts. Allows people to get on server reeady.
Does no aids allow TC on cares with it fitted?
And you agree
BUT
But 90 FOV is equally unrealistic is it NOT? Please tell me how they are different? I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS ONE THING.
You see
What about Darkone55, he likes his view similar to the 4th in my supplied images. This is NOT in a real driving position BUT is located on the dash, much like the 4th image I supplied.
He sound like someone who would be a welcome addition to a hardcore server, or at least he does to me BUT you would exclude him. Even though his concessions to realism is how he views the game.
TBH, Fine get rid of wheels and chase mode and limited to cockpit or a custom view, BUT allow centre of the car or on the bonnet etc etc etc.
They are JUST concessions to realism WE HAVE to make!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why allow a central view? I agree with a lot that you have said, about FOV realism, about cockpit intrusion into the fov if you use default cockpit view, but I just cannot think of a reason for allowing a camera to be placed in the centre of the car when the driver is actually sat to one side or the other. To save me typing again:
A post I made not too long ago on this topic.
Yep, all good points and valid.
I guess my real point is that if 90+ FOV can be thought of as OK for a hardcore mode, is a central view in the car with a FOV of 60 really any worse. Its just someones attempt to deal with the limitations we all face. As it putting the view origin above the steering wheel or any other similar view.
If we really are going to FORCE a given view then make it a real forced view, the SAME view and SAME FOV AND graphics options such as smoke etc should be forced on everybody so everyone is racing on equal grounds view wise, as per Papy. Only allow limited seat position changes and that is all.
But then the question becomes which FOV. I have played a LOT with FOV over the last couple of days and I have found one thing out. LFS really does have that sense of speed its just that as you increase the FOV you start to remove it. Try driving a lap on FOV40 and see what I mean. Everything happens so very much much faster.
So if people are serious about locked views REALLY lock it, not this half arsed attempt to keep most people happy, or just drop it and lets get the real thing we are REALLY after sorted.
The race rules enforcement!
As soon as you start to allow other configurations and stop others the reasons come down to personal as to what should be allowed and that is where the problems start. So if people really want locked then LOCK it but really lock it.
Uhm, well, Woz you didn't understand me right. I don't think it's real to have the cam in the center while the driver is on one side of the car. But my screen is just too small to have a whole cockpit on it.
But I wouldn't really care about the abilities of the camera in a hardcore mode. People use whatever they like, I try to get it a bit real. But if someone uses his own view, it doesn't affect realism for the others... Does it?
But I wouldn't really care about the abilities of the camera in a hardcore mode. People use whatever they like, I try to get it a bit real. But if someone uses his own view, it doesn't affect realism for the others... Does it?
It DOES if certain people here get their way in that unless you use cockpit mode you would NOT be allowed on a hardcore server.
Racers don't communicate with each other during a race. Why would they when they can't in real life?
What would you have to chat about to an admin (or anybody) while contesting a race?
The idea of a hardcore mode is to promote more serious and realistic racing. One of the most annoying aspects of visiting a public server is all those racers who think that LFS should be called MSN. Less talk, more racing.
Dammit, my curiosity got the better of me.
I've NEVER said 90 degrees is realistic NOR should it be in the range of allowed FOV's - for me it gives a compormise between proportion and width of view. Also I think you'll find that as you INCREASE the FOV the sense of speed gets higher
Why force one particualar FOV though - why not allow, say, 50 to 80 with a certain range of seating positions to, so that within the confines of that we can find what we are most comfortable with. Why isn't that allowed. Hell, we're driving fecking cars on a computer, it isn't real.
I wish I hadn't read your posts, as now I'm annoyed again. Hopefully tomorrow you can contribute something useful to the thread, rather than picking holes in everyone elses ideas, or trying to make your own version of a problem from three or more other solutions.
It's obvious to me that you don't have the dedication, speed, or ability to cope with a 'hardcore' mode, so just drop it. Race in your five lap sprints for the rest of your days with nice cosy tyre temp overlays and bonnet cams.
How can anything other than a cockpit view be realistic (within the confines of the computer situation)? Why do you want external views?
I've NEVER said 90 degrees is realistic NOR should it be in the range of allowed FOV's - for me it gives a compormise between proportion and width of view. Also I think you'll find that as you INCREASE the FOV the sense of speed gets higher
Why force one particualar FOV though - why not allow, say, 50 to 80 with a certain range of seating positions to, so that within the confines of that we can find what we are most comfortable with. Why isn't that allowed. Hell, we're driving fecking cars on a computer, it isn't real.
I wish I hadn't read your posts, as now I'm annoyed again. Hopefully tomorrow you can contribute something useful to the thread, rather than picking holes in everyone elses ideas, or trying to make your own version of a problem from three or more other solutions.
It's obvious to me that you don't have the dedication, speed, or ability to cope with a 'hardcore' mode, so just drop it. Race in your five lap sprints for the rest of your days with nice cosy tyre temp overlays and bonnet cams.
How can anything other than a cockpit view be realistic (within the confines of the computer situation)? Why do you want external views?
This is not correct and is not what people have been talking about in this topic. We are discussing options. Options are choices so why all the doom and gloom from you? Why try to make out that a hardcore mode will stop somebody from playing? Currently I am alienated from all servers using FWD cars, boo hoo for me I'll get over it. It is my choice to visit the server or not based on its settings and content. If an admin from a hardcore server wishes to enable the option of forced cockpit then people who like those settings will be attrracted to that server and those who don't will choose a different server. Simple really. What if full manual clutch were enabled? Will we see some people crying that they don't have a third pedal and don't like to use a button clutch? What about those who aren't very skilled yet at manual throttle blipping, will they complain that they can't join a hardcore server?
Choices and options are what we have been discussing. Flexibility for server admins to customize server-side options to promote more accurate or serious racing. There are many dedicated sim racers in our community who would like the racing itself to step up a notch, not everyone plays for "fun".
It is quite likely that on a hardcore server we might find public racing that you can rely upon to be more than just a social gathering of drop-ins and friendly faces.
That's right. They communicate with their pits, who then communicate with the other team drivers. Until LFS implements a live pit crew then we need to be able to chat. When I can have a friend or two connect, I can talk to them and tell them what I want done (change the rear tires, tighten the rear ARB, gimme a splash of fuel) when i pull into the pits, and they can make it happen, then you'll have a case. Until then, you don't.
Why does it matter what I want to discuss? There's already a way for drivers to disable on screen messages. If they don't want to see what I have to say, they don't have to. But making it impossible for me to talk to other drivers, talk to the server admin, discuss the next track/car combo, etc. is just ridiculous.
How does preventing people from talking to one another improve the experience? I can only assume that the chatting is causing problems, and is not the actual problem since it doesn't directly affect you and since it can be turned off. So what is the ACTUAL problem you're trying to resolve by disabling chatting?
Perhaps you would be happier just racing against the AI? No talking, no field of view problems, no cheating....no human interaction.
If people can't actually read and digest what other people have posted then they shouldn't reply at all.
well said :clapclap:
remove all messenging I say. If I went to a hardcore server thats how I would like it, if you really want to chat then get teamspeak, thats basically how drivers talk to their team anyways.
I don't see any racers in real life whipping out their trusty keyboard while doing 160 down the backstrait.
I agree with Gunn here too, there are people out there that do not play for just the fun factor. There are people out there who want to "step it up a notch" I would love this idea of blocking people that use views other than cockpit, ect like Gunn has been saying with these options available to change server side.
If you are saying that it isn't fair that you restrict people like that then how can you call it a hardcore server? It would be a normal server with a name of "hardcore" which means nothing. I do not think there would be many servers like this honestly but I would love to be able to have the option to have these types of servers. Knowing that every other driver has to drive under the same conditions "no steering help, throttle blip, ect.
I also think that this will expand LFS even more than it is now, just like Gunn said about the private servers. These servers taking the, say, top 10% of the LFS drivers and put them on a server that most people would not like to race on unless they were looking for the "ultimate" competition. There may be a slight drop in numbers on a regular server after the initial novelty wore off, but I feel that the peopel that are racing for fun on the normal servers will be slightly more tolerant of any "noobs" that in turn the noob will want to race more, his confidence increased because people are not degrading him, will become a perminent member of the LFS community.
This is an offshoot but here I go... I get slightly irriated at people when they get on noobs for messing up, sure they might have deserved it, but on the other hand they probably honestly didn't know they were in the wrong, and even were probably in the right but were blamed anyways. People that do this are just killing off the life flow that LFS needs to sustain what this community has become. I have been sim racing for years and I have never felt, or seen anything like this. I do not want it to go away. VRGT championship did this with Viper Racing, but they lacked huge numbers, and it was not to the degree this is.
- Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )
- Wind screen getting dirty
Right, this has reached a point where trist and I have to step back a little. Yes I probably pushed too hard to make this point but then we all know what forums are like and how easy it can be to get really involved in a thread. Hence this post to try and bring back some normality. Hope this can help calm it a little?
Please take the time to read fully if you want to respond to this post, if not ignore and move on. I dont want a battle again and will not attack people that look like they have read it.
While it does not appear it trist and I actually agree on many things in hardcore mode. The absolute thing for HC mode is the race rules and control over when people join, when they can enter the track and how a race is run. Jump to pits and all the other sorts of things that people like Gunn raised are the key. This will add so much to LFS and is a MUST.
The point I am trying to get across over locked views is that there are differences in degree of realism and also in what people think is realistic. We probably all agree views like chase and wheels are just NOT realistic and I am happy for them to go. What I do care about is that on the track people drive properly, in control and keep some idea of where people are around them and give space when race rules say they should. This is what makes for fair races.
The reason I raise the FOV issue and the Papy solution where view, FOV and visual effects are locked is that this solution, if you must lock a view, has massive appeal and fairness to it. It means nobody can argue, everyone knows that everyone has the same experience and view and view limitations.
If we must force a view in HC mode then isn't that the best option?
When you start to blur the lines then it becomes far far less black and white and that is where the problem starts. Trist and many others who play LFS use 90+FOV because it solves a problem of seeing what is around you that you don't get in lower FOV settings. But higher FOVs also make everything happen a little slower due to view distortions. This is well known in the FPS world where many people run 90-120 fov for online play. Run a lap at FOV90 and then run a lap at FOV50 and you will see what I mean. FOV50 and below give the sense of speed that many ay is missing in LFS, everything happens VERY FAST.
Again, this is also fine by me and no issue at all. It is just making up for limitations in setup etc. There are others views though that are no less valid when you start to allow this level of customisation of perspective and the like. Such as over the steering wheel or in the center of the car. These allow you to have FOV setting while giving you a view that combats some issue you had trying to get similar in cockpit mode.
Take the over the steering wheel view. In my images posted earlier there were 2 that look very similar but are not. One is cockpit at FOV40 and the other is custom and over the wheel at FOV60. Try both for a lap and you will instantly see the point I am trying to make. The cockpit FOV40 is not a view you could race with online, it would be impossible.
For the centre of the car view try the following. Configure a cockpit view with 90FOV and drive a lap. Now set a custom view to be in same pos as cockpit, move it across to the centre of car and set 90FOV. Is the cockpit version any more or less realistic?
This is the point I am trying to make. If you allow changes and tweaks to make up for setup limitations then it is not black and white. They all just help solve limitations in setups for people. They are not any more or any less realistic than the others, just a little different.
I would love that we ALL had 3 screen setups where we could force cockpit view with realistic FOV settings and everyone would be happy but that is not the case.
In the end I think many like myself probably want a replacement for CRC (Clean Racing Club for newer members) and HC mode is ideal for this from what I can see. Even Fordman is getting p***ed off and that is a rare sight to see him bitch about wreckers on the forum.
Hopefully that leaves it on a better note than last time. Take it as you want and I hope people try the FOV and view settings I mention to understand what I am trying to say. If you then want to ignore the ideas feel free.
I will not mention view forcing again!
Please take the time to read fully if you want to respond to this post, if not ignore and move on. I dont want a battle again and will not attack people that look like they have read it.
While it does not appear it trist and I actually agree on many things in hardcore mode. The absolute thing for HC mode is the race rules and control over when people join, when they can enter the track and how a race is run. Jump to pits and all the other sorts of things that people like Gunn raised are the key. This will add so much to LFS and is a MUST.
The point I am trying to get across over locked views is that there are differences in degree of realism and also in what people think is realistic. We probably all agree views like chase and wheels are just NOT realistic and I am happy for them to go. What I do care about is that on the track people drive properly, in control and keep some idea of where people are around them and give space when race rules say they should. This is what makes for fair races.
The reason I raise the FOV issue and the Papy solution where view, FOV and visual effects are locked is that this solution, if you must lock a view, has massive appeal and fairness to it. It means nobody can argue, everyone knows that everyone has the same experience and view and view limitations.
If we must force a view in HC mode then isn't that the best option?
When you start to blur the lines then it becomes far far less black and white and that is where the problem starts. Trist and many others who play LFS use 90+FOV because it solves a problem of seeing what is around you that you don't get in lower FOV settings. But higher FOVs also make everything happen a little slower due to view distortions. This is well known in the FPS world where many people run 90-120 fov for online play. Run a lap at FOV90 and then run a lap at FOV50 and you will see what I mean. FOV50 and below give the sense of speed that many ay is missing in LFS, everything happens VERY FAST.
Again, this is also fine by me and no issue at all. It is just making up for limitations in setup etc. There are others views though that are no less valid when you start to allow this level of customisation of perspective and the like. Such as over the steering wheel or in the center of the car. These allow you to have FOV setting while giving you a view that combats some issue you had trying to get similar in cockpit mode.
Take the over the steering wheel view. In my images posted earlier there were 2 that look very similar but are not. One is cockpit at FOV40 and the other is custom and over the wheel at FOV60. Try both for a lap and you will instantly see the point I am trying to make. The cockpit FOV40 is not a view you could race with online, it would be impossible.
For the centre of the car view try the following. Configure a cockpit view with 90FOV and drive a lap. Now set a custom view to be in same pos as cockpit, move it across to the centre of car and set 90FOV. Is the cockpit version any more or less realistic?
This is the point I am trying to make. If you allow changes and tweaks to make up for setup limitations then it is not black and white. They all just help solve limitations in setups for people. They are not any more or any less realistic than the others, just a little different.
I would love that we ALL had 3 screen setups where we could force cockpit view with realistic FOV settings and everyone would be happy but that is not the case.
In the end I think many like myself probably want a replacement for CRC (Clean Racing Club for newer members) and HC mode is ideal for this from what I can see. Even Fordman is getting p***ed off and that is a rare sight to see him bitch about wreckers on the forum.
Hopefully that leaves it on a better note than last time. Take it as you want and I hope people try the FOV and view settings I mention to understand what I am trying to say. If you then want to ignore the ideas feel free.
I will not mention view forcing again!
Wow, quite the heated debate! 
Are you sure that's what you mean? My opinion would be that the exact opposite is true.I have never tried, but I would imagine that a fov lower than 50 would feel like slowmotion.
Anyway, having seen the outcome, I won't say a word about locked fov's, and I'll leave it to more capable hands to comment on your post.Just stumbled over what you said about the sense of speed
Are you sure that's what you mean? My opinion would be that the exact opposite is true.I have never tried, but I would imagine that a fov lower than 50 would feel like slowmotion.
Anyway, having seen the outcome, I won't say a word about locked fov's, and I'll leave it to more capable hands to comment on your post.Just stumbled over what you said about the sense of speed
Woz, another thing thats difficult on forums to to "hear" how people say things, I get that alot, someone will take something someone else says the wrong way. Least I do that alot.
I like the idea of view forcing, I have tried to run LFS on different view settings before and noticed what you are talking about. I always keep it on 90, seems natural at about there I guess. I never really knew that people would expand the views to "slow" the game down though. Maybe another solution for this is to just limit the game period to 90 or less across the board? There is no way in a road car you can see both left and right side view mirrors at the same time.
I like the idea of view forcing, I have tried to run LFS on different view settings before and noticed what you are talking about. I always keep it on 90, seems natural at about there I guess. I never really knew that people would expand the views to "slow" the game down though. Maybe another solution for this is to just limit the game period to 90 or less across the board? There is no way in a road car you can see both left and right side view mirrors at the same time.
Feel free to try it. FOV40 on FE1 will blow you away at the sense of speed you feel.
I took your advice WoZ, I ran with the different field of views again, I get the feeling going forward is the same "speed" it's just things happen slower around you with the higher field of view because of the stretched pixels, and you can see alot more. Maybe the FoV just needs to be adjusted down so you cannot do this?
With the smaller field of view what you see is very limited and it does feel faster because your only seeing whats directly in front of your car. I have a 19inch monitor, this might have something to do with FoV setting too a bit because something that someone cannot see well on a smaller monitor could be seen on mine (I cannot test this, do not have a smaller monitor available)
(maybe next time I will follow Gunn's advice and digest more info before making a post =P)
With the smaller field of view what you see is very limited and it does feel faster because your only seeing whats directly in front of your car. I have a 19inch monitor, this might have something to do with FoV setting too a bit because something that someone cannot see well on a smaller monitor could be seen on mine (I cannot test this, do not have a smaller monitor available)
(maybe next time I will follow Gunn's advice and digest more info before making a post =P)
A FOV debate has no bearing on whether or not a forced cockpit option is relevant or available in hardcore mode. It is a seperate circular debate with no solution. People say that a realistic FOV is impossible on a PC monitor. If that is true then why argue about something that can't ever be as you want it?
A forced cockpit view addresses the issue where a driver might be viewing from an unrealistic seating position. That is the purpose. It's not some quest for ultimate visual realism but a tool to minimise ultimate unrealism of an improbable seating position. The idea isn't to force a person to see what I see, it simply puts every racer literally in the driver's seat. No matter what FOV you may prefer, forced cockpit view puts everyone in a car, or at least that would be the goal. It is an obvious inclusion in any hardcore mode proposal, in my opinion.
A forced cockpit view addresses the issue where a driver might be viewing from an unrealistic seating position. That is the purpose. It's not some quest for ultimate visual realism but a tool to minimise ultimate unrealism of an improbable seating position. The idea isn't to force a person to see what I see, it simply puts every racer literally in the driver's seat. No matter what FOV you may prefer, forced cockpit view puts everyone in a car, or at least that would be the goal. It is an obvious inclusion in any hardcore mode proposal, in my opinion.
I agree with all that. I assume because you said limit F-key chat to 3 keys, you are talking about using for "pit-in", "pit-out", etc. right? Because IRL, racers would use hand signals for this on the track and obviously you are not going to see me waving my hand down here in my basement when I want to head to pitroad. At least they use hand signals to communicate driver to driver in Nascar.
Here is something I just thought of about the forced cockpit. I'm not going to argue it anymore as I don't even have time to read all these posts, there are so many now. But here's the situation. What happens if I have an ultra huge life size display from a projector or something? If I have a life size display or close to it, I surely don't want to be stuck with displaying only one side of my car. I would definitely want the display to be centered viewing the entire windshield and would position myself with my Momo in the driver's seat relative to that view. You couldn't get more hardcore than that. So, in eliminating those using a custom camera with a center view on a little 17-19" monitor, you also eliminate the ultra hardcore guy with an actual homefabricated cockpit and life size projector display. Hmmmmm
.Peace all, I'm heading to bed.
Except that your driver's arms would be ten feet long.
except when you drive with wheel and arms off. I have my wheel and arms in view so dont have them repeated
HARDCORE MODE ... please, give us ...
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