Quote from Gudowski :

Scawen, maybe lets work on some kind of Launcher when user can check did ons erver is some new:

[] Stable Release/Update
[] Test Patch

when user can choose what he want to check did its updated and he will choose then which he want to download

good or bad idea?

There is something like that . It is called multiplayer connection list and test patch forum, so i don't see a need for this. My opinion.

Scawen, I just installed it, then I went to a server and I played some.. after that, I closed game, and after a while I wanted to play again, I joined server and game was so laggy :S

On Single player works great :S

Quote from BoyGTA :

Scawen, I just installed it, then I went to a server and I played some.. after that, I closed game, and after a while I wanted to play again, I joined server and game was so laggy :S

On Single player works great :S

I suggests to check your Internet connection.

EDIT:
Alternatively, create a dedicated server locally, connect to it and check it, you'll have answer.

Quote from Scawen :

I have a good feeling too. And that is - we'll soon have an installer.

Welcome to the new developer

Quote from Scawen :

I have a good feeling too. And that is - we'll soon have an installer.

But I really need to make it clear the physics has quite a way to go. Just in case that's what you were thinking.

I don't really understand how it can have quite a way to go, had like a year on it, released it to the beta testers who said it was an improvement, so it obviously works and if there were problems from their side you've had months to change it

Sorry to go off-topic but it kinda sucks to be left in the dark about everything...

I had a fresh Z26, then I installed the full Z27 over the top, everything worked fine.

I just installed the Z25 to Z28 patch over the top... and now when I click on a button I get :

Sound error (Play:B -2005139406)

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

I don't really understand how it can have quite a way to go, had like a year on it, released it to the beta testers who said it was an improvement, so it obviously works and if there were problems from their side you've had months to change it

Sorry to go off-topic but it kinda sucks to be left in the dark about everything...

He said there's still a bit more refinement to do

Maybe it is allowed to post a old quote with one little correction. Otherwise please delete it. Should be sticky in my opinion

Quote :

Simply, the criticisms of LFS development stated a few posts back are just wrong and displaying a lack of understanding, and failure to see the big picture. Or if you wish, you may interpret that as my failure to explain to you what I'm doing every step of the way. But seriously, my job is not to explain to you every step of LFS development and every plan I have for it, while they run through my head. My job is to get LFS done.

It was actually the two Vista compatibility issues (unlocking and sound) and the arrival of the G25 wheel that got me onto this series of test patches. It's very important, with more and more people getting Vista, and us receiving several technical support emails "I can't unlock on Vista" and so on, for LFS to work on Vista. Also we need that improved controller support to be readily available to new users. Also I've had enough of "How do I install a patch, I've downloaded it and LFS doesn't work any more" so I've been working on and nearly finished the auto updater. And that means, Patch V needs to go on the main site. And guess what - it should not go up there completely bug ridden and full of hundreds of small issues that have been waiting a long time to be fixed. But it should be compatible, I need to do some months of incompatible work, which I have outlined elsewhere and won't go into here. And there's no point delaying the compatible fixes, leaving the much poorer version U up there when we are so close to V.

The compatible fixes and improvements are totally necessary. The irritated commentators on this thread have no idea how much reworking and improving goes on inside the program while I'm on a roll. Also they don't understand how much simply MUST be done, outside the core physics, to keep the program on track. It does actually take more time than the core itself. If a great majority of the time was spent on the core alone, we would have a physically accurate, but totally unusable simulator that attracted no more than the absolute hardcore simmer. And we'd be poor and have to give up LFS and go and get a job!

This work NEEDS to be done. It's nothing different from any time in the past. A lot of compatible fixes, tested thoroughly by the community, followed by an apparently quiet period while we work on incompatible things which cannot be tested by the community because every day's test patch is incompatible, which would causing hotlap and online madness. And in that apparently quiet periiod there will be a new post each week "Where are the devs gone" and "They've taken our money and run" and "The devs owe it to us to write a detailed progress report each week" etc, etc... you know how it goes by now.

Anyway, I'm very happy with these improvements, I'm sort of embarassed now by version U and it's flaws and imcompatibilities, the visible things and the internal messes it contains that I have sorted out. I'm itching to get that version V up there but it needs the auto-updater finished (a couple more days work) and the new (minor) sound updates (a few more days work - still awaiting some longer work in the future). Nearly every one of these test patches has had some VITAL fixes, along with a few irritations fixed and some minor or major features. It really is not a bad thing for LFS, these compatible things that have been done, bringing us so much closer to a final S3 (<-correction) that can be released, when the other craved updates are completed.

It's a little sad the lack of trust displayed in those preceding posts. The belief that something has gone wrong inside our heads, that the developers who once knew how to develop, have changed mentally in some way, are hiding away in a hole, scared to develop anything but just scratching at the surface. It's quite a pathetic belief in fact, when the truth is Eric's there working on things that will improve LFS a lot amd I am working 10 hour days getting so much done, as fast as possible to get a stable version up there ready for the approaching silent period of core development.

It's going so well, and as described elsewhere our lives have been sorted out a lot this year helped by the S2 success, after neglecting ourselves for years, due to LFS development. It would be nice if the off topic commentators could just be happy about it and have some faith in the simple understanding that we developers who got it this far, and have devoted so much of our lives to this, probably want to take it to the next stage as well!

Quote from Flame CZE :

It's amazing how much bugs is discovered when you publish those patches, I can't imagine what it would be like, if there wasn't this public testing... good job! No bugs found.

Bit of a "hint hint" person arent you

A bit off-topic regarding the "still quite a lot to do".

Well the way the development is going right now is fine by me. Not fast - but atleast we are getting responses from devs and it doesnt look like the whole thing is put on a halt. However, having said that, I would be very disappointed if the new "Big" patch wont be out by Christmas/End of this year.

I just really hope we wont have to see "Early 2010".

Anyways. Z28 is all clean. No bugs as of yet.

Quote from Scawen :

But I really need to make it clear the physics has quite a way to go. Just in case that's what you were thinking.

So no plans on a Xmas patch this year?

( I am only asking this because there are many people with the feeling or maybe hope for an Xmas patch)

Great work so far, but
I attempted to join a server and it either timed out or couldn't connect because other reason (I forgot) but I tried again and got in so its ok

well it would be a dissapointment for me after scawen's announcement at beginning of year, it becoming a great lfs year. Well since i am no multiscreenuser i have had a ordinary lfs year then, certainly not a great one

But what cant be helped, cant be helped....carry on

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

I don't really understand how it can have quite a way to go, had like a year on it, released it to the beta testers who said it was an improvement, so it obviously works and if there were problems from their side you've had months to change it

Sorry to go off-topic but it kinda sucks to be left in the dark about everything...

Well, programming new physics is really hard. The tyre model feels good and has a good mathematical basis. But as it's completely different, the tyre heating needs to be done differently too. It simply doesn't work any more like it did. Also things like that little puff of smoke that comes out from a hot piece of tyre each time it hits the road - that has no place in the new LFS physics. In fact, I recently added code that can emit smoke from all hot parts of a tyre (regardless of whether they are touching the road or not). It's quite nice and convincing in some situations but persists for too long in other situations and itself proves that the heating model is not yet right.

Also we are interested in implementing a limited setup system (for road cars - not just the VW) and have realistic setups for all the road cars. But these realistic setups have demonstrated something that is lacking in the suspension.

As with all things in development, one thing is leading to another, and when one thing leads to another, you should do "another". Or at least, that's how I choose to work. The current LFS is already quite balanced. To release something that has not reached the required standard, is not balanced, is clearly wrong (as a whole) and so on, would not do LFS any good at all. Real time simulation of the heating of tyres is not something I could complete in 3 days or a week. I did think I could, but in attempting it, and trying some different approaches, I found I could not. So all I can do is carry on, until the tyre heating is right, update the suspension as required, then implement the limited setup system which will allow you to drive road cars that feel like road cars. Rushing things out would make LFS worse for you, not better.

This is really just a short note, I think this would be better stated in a proper progress report. And that was the plan. But as you and maybe others can't wait, and it is the test patch itself that is causing you to be upset, I hope it was worth explaining the situation. As usual, there is a reason for everything, we have not lost our heads or anything like that.

Maybe it is wise to put the whole thread to general discussion and create a new test patch thread ?

Quote from Scawen :

...

Although it is offtopic... sorry... Scawen, it's great that You are implementing limited setup options, but remember those unlimited setup options in LFS were also it's strength. There is huge userbase which simply loves to play with LFS setups(just look at setup subforum). I might ask too much(and i will understand that) but... two "cards" of setup options would be nice, with possibility to enforce "basic" or "advance(with maybe even more setup options than now?)" setup on a particular server(Iracing style). I am personally such a person, who loves the possibilities in LFS setups(and how I can feel every change). Thanks to LFS i've learned a lot about differencials, supsension etc. Of course I accept every change You will make, but remember , You've made awesome physics engine... don't take from some of us the possibility to play with it .

With regards
Me .

Thanks, was just hard to understand how you can do (what seemed like) new physics in a few months for the beta testers to use and then take just as long on refinements. You've made us understand the process a little more though (or maybe just me).

Just for the record im not upset, just somewhat frustrated at not knowing if the new physics are coming at christmas or into spring, especially doing league races you don't want to practice alot incase the physics change.

But i suppose this is just the way LFS is and ive enjoyed it more than any game ive ever bought, so you know what your doing Just don't make us wait too long...

Quote from Scawen :

. Also things like that little puff of smoke that comes out from a hot piece of tyre each time it hits the road - that has no place in the new LFS physics.

I think it is unrealistic at all. Never saw this smoke, except I was standing with both feets on the brake , in real Life ...or the tyre was burning

Tested out the patch, no problems found so far, looking good

Quote from Scawen :

Also we are interested in implementing a limited setup system (for road cars - not just the VW) and have realistic setups for all the road cars. But these realistic setups have demonstrated something that is lacking in the suspension.

That's nice, but please, remember of drifters and just try to give XRT, FZ5 and maybe XRG some settings helpful in drifting, like camber, parallel steer, toe, and of course - differential. That will be a big gift from you.


I have a little question also - now, when I have hot tires (I mean after the big burnout or few drifting laps) I have a lot of smoke on straights (without any sliding) - just because tires are hot. In new physics this isn't exist? Am I right?

Quote from Scawen :

This is really just a short note, I think this would be better stated in a proper progress report. And that was the plan. But as you and maybe others can't wait, and it is the test patch itself that is causing you to be upset, I hope it was worth explaining the situation. As usual, there is a reason for everything, we have not lost our heads or anything like that.

I think you still should write a proper progress report to the main site, some people don't visit test patch forums often, so It would be great.

Anyway, great post from you, now it's all clear!

is it possible in z30 contain new physics ?

Quote from pako_customize :

is it possible in z30 contain new physics ?

Everything is possible.

Quote from Byku :

Although it is offtopic... sorry... Scawen, it's great that You are implementing limited setup options, but remember those unlimited setup options in LFS were also it's strength. There is huge userbase which simply loves to play with LFS setups(just look at setup subforum). I might ask too much(and i will understand that) but... two "cards" of setup options would be nice, with possibility to enforce "basic" or "advance(with maybe even more setup options than now?)" setup on a particular server(Iracing style). I am personally such a person, who loves the possibilities in LFS setups(and how I can feel every change). Thanks to LFS i've learned a lot about differencials, supsension etc. Of course I accept every change You will make, but remember , You've made awesome physics engine... don't take from some of us the possibility to play with it .

Yes, I know there are a lot of users that have used LFS for experimentation and learned something from the unlimited setups. And we will not take away that ability. The idea is that it will be a host option. Maybe the default will be limited setups and the option will be "Allow extreme setups" or maybe the other way round.

Anyway the important thing is there will be hosts you can join with limited setups. For most road cars that would be very limited (like : tyre pressure and toe). For LRF cars there would be some extra adjustments (like damping and anti-roll bars). Racing cars would allow a lot more adjustments. Other hosts would allow extreme setups. Possibly the extreme setups could one day go further than they do now.

Quote from ponczak :

That's nice, but please, remember of drifters and just try to give XRT, FZ5 and maybe XRG some settings helpful in drifting, like camber, parallel steer, toe, and of course - differential. That will be a big gift from you.

Drifting hosts are one example where extreme setups will be allowed, I am sure.

Quote from ponczak :

I have a little question also - now, when I have hot tires (I mean after the big burnout or few drifting laps) I have a lot of smoke on straights (without any sliding) - just because tires are hot. In new physics this isn't exist? Am I right?

You are pointing out an issue with tyre heating / cooling that exists in the old physics and is not yet cured in the new physics. I found it was impossible to change a few numbers and fix that - I need to improve the tyre surface and rubber heating model.

Another thing that affects progress is the AI drivers. I found out last week that they are unable to estimate the available grip correctly. Once again I found that a "quick fix" was inappropriate and would be a waste of time. I really need to do some reorganising of their code again, would be a few days work. Obviously many people would say, forget the AI drivers, they are no consequence. But from our point of view, the AI must be able to handle their physics and we cannot release LFS versions with that kind of problem. Many people don't use AI at all, but others do use them. That is an example of something unforeseen just popping up.

Quote from pako_customize :

is it possible in z30 contain new physics ?

I have no idea what patch numbers will contain what updates in the future. The plan is to release Z28 today and then I get back to work on the physics.

by saying that ai cant handle new physics i believe that those physics will really change the they u drive and old setups will be useless