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Should I make a police complaint?
(76 posts, started )
#1 - ajp71
Should I make a police complaint?
Last night I was returning from competing in a road rally. My navigator had gone home separately so I made the rather poor navigational error of getting on the dual carriageway in the wrong direction! After about a mile on the dual carriageway I came to a roundabout, which I wasn't expecting. I went round it a couple of times to establish the error I had made and which way I needed to go then went back up the same piece of dual carriageway. I was driving at about 70mph on a completely empty dual carriageway when, having just gone past the slip road I should have used in the first place, a set of bright lights approached from speed in my mirror and then sat on my bumper. I first assumed it was probably another rally competitor trying to get me to drive back in a spirited fashion, having just done a rally driving fast and wasting fuel whilst risking getting a ticket was not something that appealed to me.

After about 30 seconds the car was still very close behind me so I flashed my fog lights at it, hoping the site of red lights would give it a scare, the car behind did seem to slow down but then came back and sat on my bumper, still making no attempt to pass on an empty dual carriageway. In frustration I eased off the throttle and slowed to 60mph, still no attempt was made to make a pass. Rather worried that this brain dead idiot behind me was going to end up in my bumper I then started braking very gently down to about 40mph, still it just stuck there. I started weighing up whether I was going to pull into the layby ahead and confront someone who could have been deliberately trying to make me stop, alone on an empty dual carriageway at 11.30pm or dialing 999, and potentially getting somebody I knew getting stopped for driving like a tosser.

The last possible thing that I was expecting was my mirror to fill with blue lights! I was half relieved that I wasn't about to meet someone nasty, my feelings soon changed when I realised that I had just been intimidated and been put at unnecessary risk of genuine danger by someone who was meant to be a professional driver, let alone a police officer, and that's before we get to the possibility of entrapment/fowl play. Getting out I found out that I had been stopped by an Astra, and given the lack of white hats, I think not even a traffic car.

The explanation given was they were trying to read my number plate, admittedly it was muddy from the rally but I could read it without issue from the backseat. I don't think this explanation justifies a following a car for what must have been about 5 miles, when they were going to stop me for it all along anyway. Unfortunately I then learnt that the insurance had come back negative, this nugget of information meant I had to do everything possible to avoid getting the car seized. Having explained my specialist policy with Competition Car Insurance I think he was satisfied, that there was a reasonably high chance I was insured and rather bemused. After a good check round they couldn't find anything other than the rally bits, rather glad that they didn't consider the car I had just be rallying with defective.

Was told they had suspected I had been drink driving when they saw me go round the roundabout, must have been from a distance because I didn't see any other cars. They told me that I hadn't indicated correctly at the roundabout and could get 3 points for driving without due care and attention for it, I think its unlikely that they'll be able to provide evidence of this given how far away they must have been. Then told me I could get 3 points for dangerous driving for the slowing down, again reckon with video evidence they'd be unable to justify how close they were or that I didn't slow down in as safe a manner as I could, and also there is the argument that the slower I was traveling when I actually needed to brake the smaller the accident would have been.

In the end I got a producer for insurance and MOT, went and did it today.

Given the ridiculously dangerous driving, which in all probability was a case of attempted entrapment trying to make me speed up or do something stupid, I would fully support 3 points and a fine at the very least for any member of the public tailgating like this. I do want to take it further, not to get back at anybody, but to hopefully to stop this happening in the future. In fairness the officers who stopped me were polite and reasonable and the driver certainly seemed to feel rather small once I had a go at his driving standards, even if he couldn't bring himself to appologise. Having read a bit about it I don't want to make a formal complaint and ideally would like to be able to talk to someone who takes it seriously and can give those responsible a bollocking and hopefully stop them doing it again.

Has anyone had any experience with making similar complaints and is it worth bothering doing? Other cases on the web would suggest there is little point in bothering but normally they weren't actually pulled over and as a result don't have the details of those involved. I still have my producer notice giving all the details needed.
so wait, can you sumarise t in 2 sentences?
Well sounds to me like going around in a circle one two many times was justified the pull over. But the tail gating didnt i mean if he were a cop why not just flash you to pull over from the start?
Either way unless you got the cops name and licenses you wont have a fighting chance.
Circumstance similar happened to my wife many years ago with an unmarked police car, she actually was afraid it was some idiot that could be out to harm her. She tried slowing down, etc which didn't work and then decided to speed up to get away from the potential danger. Again on empty dual lane roads late at night as soon as she got above 10km/h over the speed limit the flashing lights came on and she was pulled over and given a ticket! When my wife got home she was still shaken by the thought it could have been someone out to harm her. This was from two young cops, their training really should cover rules of engagement with the public in unmarked cars that take into account how the public might perceive the situation if they act with intent without making it clear that they are police. We were very young at the time so didn't pursue it, if it happened now I'd definitely consider it.
#5 - senn
be glad they didn't fine you for driving the wrong way. The fine for that is probably more! They shouldn't tail gate, i agree, but if i have someone up my bumper, and they don't seem to want to overtake, i generally assume its the cops. So i either start taking side roads to see if they are following, or slow right down. Speeding up is a sure way to get a ticket. Also, if they are anything like the police around here, putting in a complaint is a good way to have them sitting in your street almost everyday, pulling you over. Going to the ombudsman doesn't always work
If it had been me i'd have done the same up until the polling over, because if the slowing down had not have worked I would have gone into full-on self defence mode. I would assume the car behind is hostile and take all necessary action to loose it, including running it off the road and causing harm to those inside - irrespective of if they then turned on blue lights at a later point.

Only the addition of further police cars would bring me to a stop, where of course I would oblige a non-hostile officer by stopping at the first safe opportunity, i'd even actively seek it.

However, as far as the officers in question are concerned, if i'd been reduced to foot before more police officers arrived on the scene the only choice that I would have would have been to attempt to kill them.

It sounds serious but think about it: I'm a lone woman driving at night, behind me could be anyone, and they're acting in a manner that shows aggressive intent - blue lights in itself or even a uniform does not provide sufficient verified data to make a judgement but usually we respect these things, but after somebody has acted aggressively in such a manner then I for one would discount the lights and the uniform, once I am in a state of self defence, that is it...

Once an aggressive action is made against me my instinct is that of flight, i've had enough fights to know that i'm more than capable of losing, so I try to run away... If that fails and I am given no alternative but to defend myself - I cannot hope to win a fight against two police officers, armed with comfa and CS gas, unless I act hard fast, use all my training, capacity for violence, my willingness to cross the line and then get a bit lucky, so my defence mechanism at that point is to cause the most amount of harm as quickly as possible with no pause for negotiation, with my best weapons likely being suprise and passing traffic.

Understanding the severity of what these police officers did in endangering both your life and their own, I think it stands to reason that at the minimum you should be seeking their removal from vehicular based policing, perhaps a desk job, early retirement, or a new career as a prison daddy's semen recepticle.

Seriously out of order.
#7 - Jakg
Quote from chavm481 :so wait, can you sumarise t in 2 sentences?

He makes a (minor but incredibly common) mistake of indication on a roundabout, unmarked police car tailgates him for 5 miles. He assumes it's some odd nutter and starts slowing down hoping the guy will pass (on an empty dual carriageway) and then on come the lights and the guy tried to shaft him for dangerous driving / without due care / no insurance.

TBH it sounds like the guy looked you up on ANPR after you didn't indicate, and it came back as negative, and then decided from your numberplate that you were trying to play a game and so treated you like a scumbag.

Can I ask what the issue was with insurance?

I'd definitely report it - I see literally hundreds of people who dont indicate on roundabouts weekly, but never seen anyone pulled for it - it's not overly safe in busy traffic but on an empty road at night it doesn't really hurt anyone, and the slowing down was just entrapment.

EDIT - If it was me i'd slow down (very very very slowly, like coasting slowly) to a stop (ONLY if the road was totally empty mind) and put the rear fogs / reversing lights on to see what I was dealing with. My car (with locked doors) will easily outrun anyone on foot tyvm.
Quote from Jakg :I see literally hundreds of people who dont indicate on roundabouts weekly, but never seen anyone pulled for it

I don't think I've ever seen somebody indicate correctly round here. Most people indicate on to the roundabout, and stay indicating right as they pull of left. Pisses me off when I wait for someone at a roundabout, only to find they turn off the exit I'm joining from.
#9 - Jakg
Ok i've never seen ANYONE (except learners and my "inexperienced boy-racer friends") indicate properly on a roundabout AND follow correct lane discipline, but even just indicating correctly would be a start
Hey, i'll have you know that ocassionally I indicate properly !
#11 - CSU1
...combination of professionalism(or lack of)on the police drivers behalf and illegible plates coupled with the possibility that the driver and possibly the base saw you go wrong way down the motorway may have led them to believe you were stonking drunk...maybe if you were drunk and he hit the lights you would have put pedal to metal and killed yourself....maybe the manner in which he was tailing you was correct procedure when dealing with a drunk on the road to avoid the unnecessary.
Quote from AstroBoy :But the tail gating didnt i mean if he were a cop why not just flash you to pull over from the start?

Exactly, they should stop me straight away if they can't read my number plate, not follow me in a dangerous manner, the only reason they followed me would have been to try and get me for a more serious offense. They are perfectly entitled to follow me from a distance, just like any other road user but they should not be putting pressure on by driving in a manner that is plain dangerous, or (especially at night when you can't tell its a police car) makes people worried that they are being followed.

Quote :
Either way unless you got the cops name and licenses you wont have a fighting chance.

As I got stopped and given a producer form I have the PCs name and number, time and place of the incident and the reference number on top of it should make it easy for them to find notes the officers made. If there was a video evidence, which there may not being seeing as it wasn't a proper traffic car that stopped me it will definitely count against them.

Quote from senn :be glad they didn't fine you for driving the wrong way. The fine for that is probably more!

To clarify I was never driving the wrong way! Only driving in the correct direction on the other carriageway heading away from where I wanted to go. I would be horrified if they had taken the decision to follow me so close if they thought I had been driving the wrong way down a dual carriageway!

Quote :
putting in a complaint is a good way to have them sitting in your street almost everyday, pulling you over. Going to the ombudsman doesn't always work

I am sightly concerned about this happening, especially seeing as the local nick is at the end of the street, although it really shouldn't.

Quote from Jakg :He makes a (minor but incredibly common) mistake of indication on a roundabout, unmarked police car tailgates him for 5 miles.

It was a fully marked Vauxhall Astra town car, I simply couldn't see it in the dark because of its headlights.

Quote :
Can I ask what the issue was with insurance?

I've got a specialist policy because the car used as a rally car it covers all the modifications and includes road cover for rallies (which otherwise you have to pay for each rally). The way the policy works you get a cover note for the first month to give you time to submit information about the car and photos of it, I only took the policy out a week ago. Quite why its not on the police database I'm not sure but took the paperwork yesterday and it was accepted no problems.
#13 - Jakg
Is your car shown as insured on the MID? if not most likely they saw your little mistake, thought they'd run a check on your and the ANPR came back with either no plate or a warning for no insurance.

Not quite sure why'd they'd follow you though.
Quote from ajp71 :
To clarify I was never driving the wrong way! Only driving in the correct direction on the other carriageway heading away from where I wanted to go. I would be horrified if they had taken the decision to follow me so close if they thought I had been driving the wrong way down a dual carriageway!

When I read it first time it did sound like you were going down the carriageway the wrong way, rather than going in the opposite direction than you wanted to
Quote from Jakg :Is your car shown as insured on the MID? if not most likely they saw your little mistake, thought they'd run a check on your and the ANPR came back with either no plate or a warning for no insurance.

No for some reason it isn't listed, will ring the insurance tomorrow, rather annoyed really that I've been able to drive past the local nick and countless traffic cars that go past where I live and haven't been picked up on ANPR for the last week, no wonder so many scumbags drive around uninsured. I'm not sure if the car would have had an ANPR system because it wasn't a traffic car, they were still trying to make a radio call to check when I got in the car, the car also seemed to come back simultaneously registered both to myself and the previous owner, trust the DVLA to confuse things further!
Quote from Becky Rose :If it had been me i'd have done the same up until the polling over, because if the slowing down had not have worked I would have gone into full-on self defence mode. I would assume the car behind is hostile and take all necessary action to loose it, including running it off the road and causing harm to those inside - irrespective of if they then turned on blue lights at a later point.



You couldn't just continue on at a normal speed until you reached a built-up area, pull over in a service station forecourt or something? It makes more sense to run the police car off the road and try to kill the occupants?

Quote from Becky Rose :It sounds serious but think about it: I'm a lone woman driving at night, behind me could be anyone, and they're acting in a manner that shows aggressive intent - blue lights in itself or even a uniform does not provide sufficient verified data to make a judgement but usually we respect these things, but after somebody has acted aggressively in such a manner then I for one would discount the lights and the uniform, once I am in a state of self defence, that is it...

The police even recommend that women driving alone shouldn't stop in a secluded location if they feel threatened. If you continue at a normal speed until you find somewhere you can stop where there are witnesses, that's perfectly acceptable.

But if you'd prefer to lose your license for leading the cops on a high-speed chase and ultimately cuffed face-down in a field somewhere then I suppose you could do that too...
If your numberplate was partially obscured (which is actually an offence in itself) then it's quite feasible they were following you for so long due to trying to guess the bits they couldn't read and running it through the PNC to check your insurance and tax details (or getting the PNC to do a match from a partial index against your car make and model).

However, that doesn't account for the tailgating and bad driving, unless the cops were seriously short sighted. It doesn't surprise me that it was an Astra, and therefore just a local beat car with a couple of normal bobbies in it. These guys have probably had no specific training on traffic policing, although you'd think the advanced driving test (not to mention common sense) should prevent the tailgating. Nonetheless, I've seen some dreadful driving by beat cars and police vans; the traffic cars tend to be driven by guys with a bit more of a clue.

Their threats to ticket you for not indicating correctly (if there are no other cars within range of you that would benefit from you indicating, then I do believe the highway code says you don't have to indicate?!) and braking are bollocks - I would expect you could just contest them in court and explain the situation there. Whilst a formal complaint for their driving and attitude would be over the top, a firmly worded but polite letter to the force's chief constable (or relevant person in a professional standards/training dept) surely wouldn't go amiss.
Quote from thisnameistaken :The police even recommend that women driving alone shouldn't stop in a secluded location if they feel threatened. If you continue at a normal speed until you find somewhere you can stop where there are witnesses, that's perfectly acceptable.

But if you'd prefer to lose your license for leading the cops on a high-speed chase and ultimately cuffed face-down in a field somewhere then I suppose you could do that too...

What you need to remember Kev is that at night all you see behind you is headlights, and if someone is driving in such a manner (matching speed and not passing on an empty dual carriageway) then clearly i'm in danger and I will protect myself. If the car only THEN puts blue lights on, it's too late, as i'm already defending myself.

I'll do whatever is necessary to defend myself, whilst my first reaction is not going to be to start a full on offensive of every police car I see I didn't see the point of posting details of every hyperthitical scenario in the post. My point was simply that after aggression is shown I wont for one moment believe that the people behind me are police - or more specifically, police that I can trust.

Sure, i'll aim for a built up area before wanting to get out on foot, but i'll not stop at a petrol station forecourt - I meen, 1 attendant, possibly 16 years old, isn't going to stop me getting by head blown off, i'd be endangering them needlessly for no net gain. After 11pm there really isn't anywhere with a large congregation of people, so i'll take my chances alone and use extreme speed and/or violence to protect myself.

You'll notice that my intent is only to defend myself after aggression has been shown, so yes, naturally i'll take a safe course of action where one presents itself - but as far as i'm concerned the way those policemen acted was aggressive and once I identify something or someone as hostile that is it.
#19 - Jakg
Quote from STROBE :(if there are no other cars within range of you that would benefit from you indicating, then I do believe the highway code says you don't have to indicate?!)

If your indicating around a parked car, but theres no-one to indicate too then no you dont *need* to (i still would even though you'd get a minor for it on a test...) but if your going on a roundabout or a junction etc you need to no matter what.
Have gone and arranged a meeting, was very disapointed in the duty counter secetary trying to tell me I had no grounds for making a complaint about a traffic stop.
Quote :If your indicating around a parked car, but theres no-one to indicate too then no you dont *need* to (i still would even though you'd get a minor for it on a test...) but if your going on a roundabout or a junction etc you need to no matter what.

You can actually fail your advanced driving test for indicating when there is no need too, because it highlights a lack of awareness...

Quote :Have gone and arranged a meeting

Give them hell !
#22 - Jakg
You can fail your ordinary test for it, too - indicating when no-one is there implies you haven't noticed the lack of people and so you get an (imo rediculous) minor for it. And they say the test gets easier
Quote from ajp71 :Have gone and arranged a meeting, was very disapointed in the duty counter secetary trying to tell me I had no grounds for making a complaint about a traffic stop.

conduct ur self wisely they can arrest you for causing a desterbiance <--- spelling


i got 250hrs comunity service for susposably being rude to a balif when i was 14 years old and watched 3 young guys around 17 get 5 years jail for shooting someone with a AIR soft plastic bb gun

you can fight anything you want if you got the time and money to waste i just susjest you do what you think is right


personaly if they were to charge me with something i didnt believe in i would go and commit the crime 10x
Quote from chavm481 :so wait, can you sumarise t in 2 sentences?

If you want to participate in a text based communication system, like an online forum, perhaps you should learn to read?
Quote from Becky Rose :What you need to remember Kev is that at night all you see behind you is headlights, and if someone is driving in such a manner (matching speed and not passing on an empty dual carriageway) then clearly i'm in danger and I will protect myself. If the car only THEN puts blue lights on, it's too late, as i'm already defending myself.

I'll do whatever is necessary to defend myself, ... after aggression is shown I wont for one moment believe that the people behind me are police - or more specifically, police that I can trust.

... After 11pm there really isn't anywhere with a large congregation of people, so i'll take my chances alone and use extreme speed and/or violence to protect myself.

You'll notice that my intent is only to defend myself after aggression has been shown,

A bit of tailgating justifies a high-speed chase that would put others in danger of being killed? You're a ****ing lunatic and you shouldn't be on the roads at all.

Should I make a police complaint?
(76 posts, started )
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