I can't remember how the configuration screen looked, but I'm pretty sure the 2 wheels showed up in a list and I had to select which one to use. Perhaps this has changed in a patch? My clutch pedal is also a bit broken, only part of the potentiometer range is working and that couldn't be fixed in rFactor (unlike in LFS).
You mean that the actual wheel rotation you see IN the game is changed? Didn't know this one, a bit weird that the wheels aren't given correct rotation degrees in the first place.
I had nothing but sheer trouble and lag, connection issues, mod issues, compatibility issues.. *shiver*. Good to see it has worked out for someone.
If rFactor is your cup of tea, so be it. Doesn't suit me tho, now or ever (unless they atleast get the physics right).
No offense or the likes taken here.. I didn't make either game so I'm just a bystander (can never understand this fanboy mentality (generally speaking) we see where kids are more over-protective of a game than the game's developers! :rolleyes: ).
I spent 18 months playing LFS and currently have a 24 member LFS team. I put a lot of effort into it to begin with in a few ways but alas, it slowly got to become a chore to keep cars on the black stuff so I lost interest. S2 never had the 'WOW!' factor that S1 had (ironically I much prefer the old S1 physics.. new tyre physics feel like I'm driving in blancmange all the time... and yes, I checked my tyre pressures ).
I moved to F1C while waiting for the ever delayed (at the time) S2 release which got me interested in what could be done so when rF was released that had tools available for everyone, not a few specific mod teams, I grabbed the chance. Now I have a hard time coming back to LFS because of lack of choice (and still don't like the tyre physics). In rF, if I don't like it, I can change it.. that goes for almost every parameter whereas here if I don't, I damn well best keep my mouth shut else I'll get shot to shreds by the fanboys and their "pefect sim" (it's these people that drive me even further away) which is always a little more pefect per patch Neither game is perfect.. and not really comparable IMO.. both contain cars and tracks with the idea to get from A-A again as quickly as possible, but that's where the comparison ends to me.
I'm about as far from a hardcore gamer as you can get (more of a geek, heh) so maybe that's why some of this "missing perfection" that people want doesn't bother me. Microprose GrandPrix 1 was a great game, would still be if I had my old Amiga. Eye-candy doesn't _really_ do it for me either.. the shots were only posted to show that it doesn't look as bad as you said originally, at least to myself
I still have respect for the LFS devs and what they've done (I certainly couldn't do it) even if not so keen on the game anymore and hard to top trying to get a 7.0L Cobra around The Ring in one piece :banana: (F1's as interesting as pulling teeth so the BF1 addition does nothing for me).
Personally I wish people could just discuss the differences, pros and cons of 2 or more items rather than one having to be perfect and the other damn right atrocious. Both have their merits, both have their flaws and different strokes for different blokes. Once LFS gets round to having better tyre physics (this is really my only gripe with LFS as is probably most people's who have one), I'll more than likely get back involved with my team again as I love the road-going the cars.. amateur league kinda classes are great fun for door-to-door racing.. but tyre comparisons between rF and LFS feel like driving on ice and boggy mud respectively and I find it easier / more fun to drive on ice. That said, I can remove the icey feel by creating new tyre slip curves to some extents (if I knew what I was doing, heh) but again closed programs prevent this (this isn't a "please open LFS for modding" plea either, just an observation).
I think the biggest thing that got to me about my dislikes of LFS.. I wanted to like it a lot. I _really_ enjoyed S1 and everytime I see replays and stuff of LFS, I wanna grab a car and do some laps.. but as soon as I hit the track and start trying to corner, depression sets in. I have similar feelings sometimes with rF too though as trying to countersteer in rF is all but impossible after you've rotated ~15 degrees it seems. I've been lucky to catch some slides, but for the most part.. once my arse-end is going sideways, I'm pretty much a passenger immediately, regardless of action on the wheel (turning into the skid sometimes makes it worse! this didn't happen in my old 520bhp car when I slid it about, heh).
Not sure about people complaining about the online stuff.. I personally think LFS adn rF now have comparable netcode (LFS was always light years ahead of the likes of F1C though) as I've had a few 36 man grid races online without a glitch.
I'll be trying further LFS patches as they're released and more interest in rF for its modding than driving. I heard about nk's release.. HAHAHAH I won't be going anywhere near that. All software has bugs.. but damn! and their "pay for this pay for that" crap can kiss my arse
I have in the past bashed LFS for it's physics but since experimenting in this area myself now, albeit not coding the engine too which must be a nightmare! I have a different look on it all.. it's certainly not easy and about as far from fun as it can be IMO.. make a chance, do a few corners, make a chance, do a few corners, make a chance............................... :hairpull:
Anyways.. that's pretty much how I see things. There is of course no right or wrong answer / feeling to any of it and thankfully not everyone in the world is / thinks / likes the same. Atm, 3D work has become my "hobby of the moment" so I "go where the work is" so to speak
Unfortunately, one of Lo's beta testers leaked them but I've had the Cobra and 250GTO for a few months as Lo sends me previews from time to time of his stuff :banana: but he's tried to turn a bad situation into a good one by using this now as a public beta test
I repacked the leaked version and mirrored it here (no registration required). Now it can simply be unarchived to your rF root dir rather than messing about with dirs. Still beta and the GTO isn't finished (missing headlights and has a tendency to want to roll on its own) but the Cobra's solid.. if somewhat of an animal to drive spinning the wheels right up through the box to 3rd / 110mph Eau Rouge is certainly an interesting corner in one, heh.
See the 'Legends cars' (now closed) thread on RSC in the main rF forum for Lo's official response to the leak etc.. and has now created another thread in the modding forum for bug reports etc.
I can't remember offhand either sorry, haven't been in there for ages, but I'm pretty sure nothing has changed due to a patch. I tend to do all my controller config in the controller.ini file, it's a real pandoras box of goodies compared to the very limited options in the GUI.
I had a similar problem with my first set of DFP pedals, and used DX Tweak 2 (not just for Logitech) to workaround the problem for all sims/games, until Logitech sent me a new set of pedals for nowt
Yup, the in-game graphical wheel rotation By default all cars have a visible rotation of about 200 degrees, which I guess what your 'average' wheel rotation is, excluding DFPs (which can also be locked to 200 btw, with a button combo). I don't see how they could set the 'correct' rotation in the first place as unless they could query the controller driver how would they know what rotation your wheel is? As far as I am aware LFS doesn't set this itself, you set it in the GUI.
Sorry to hear that, I run a club server and we don't have any issues with the netcode at all
Fair enough, I tend to agree that LFS does have the more complete physics model, however I don't think the rFactor model is as bad as some people make out, but the default controller/forcefeedback config (and cars for that matter) are extremely lame compared to what is possible.
Racing sims are my cup of tea, and there is room in my cup for both rFactor and LFS.
I was just thinking what a balanced, intelligent and informative post that was from Ian, thank you!
If other people don't have anything constructive to add to this debate, why on earth do they bother posting at all?
What is not needed is fuel to add to the old "My sim's better than your sim" rant. Utterly pointless and utterly boring.
Sorry, that is not aimed at you, Techade!
Rational discussion on this topic IMO is a good thing(tm). Developers aren't blind to the competition nor naive enough to simply think "this sucks!". Discussions like this I think can help all parties involved as the devs will pick up on people's likes, dislikes, wishlists etc for a variety of games which they can then consider inclusion into their own product or not. Unfortunately these discussions don't often stay that way past the thread title but this is one of the better ones I've read
Fire: There's no current demo of rF.. the MP demo is ~2 years old I think and many things have changed. That said, the OEM content wasn't particularly inspiring (although I quite like the ZR-Z still) but I don't think it was ever meant to be (whether this was a good or bad move on ISI's part is another discussion). I see rF as an SDK rather than an "out of the box race sim". I didn't buy it to drive the OEM cars, I bought it to get stuck into and create my own content but I think this is most people's initial hurdle when trying it (latest version now comes with the F3 as part of the download and the next release will include the nascars and I'm guessing the Panoz that Lo's working on).
I like the PCC physics for example (worlds apart from the OEM content) and although they got slated for their design, I just enjoy driving the car.. couldn't care less if it feels like a real 911 or not tbh.. it's just fun
Again LFS shines in this dept too with the very generous demo (IMO). Offering a 48 hour refund for rF is all well and good, but isn't everyone told you can't really get an idea for a game in a few hours?
Now if LFS teamed up with Crammond, Papy and ISI.. maybe we'd see a "perfect sim" as all the good and bad points of each could be shuffled around.. but as that's not gonna happen.. and in a way, a good thing(tm) (choice is good!).. we go with what's available.. and it ain't all bad
I'm a motor fan.. if it has 2 or 4 wheels and an engine, I'm interested.. I enjoy playing racing games.. but in reality, that's all they are, games.. where we each extract as much fun or dismay from them as we wish
Regards,
Ian
EDIT: One other area I forgot to mention that I really agree with.. is LFS' FFB superiority. I now have reasonable feeling in rF (thanks to BWX's postings ) but I do feel more in LFS. I like a heavy wheel.. both in games and real cars (beemas are horrible IRL IMO.. waaaaaay too light in the steering dept.) and LFS simulates this very well
I could cope with the bad controller/ff configs, but one thing I demand is drivability and physics. I mean it's (nearly) impossible to even drift in rFactor without modding the car physics to hell and back. It's that hard to feel the car, there is pretty much no hope of feeling when the tail starts to go.
I guess rFactor isn't all that bad since lots of people like it. Then again, it's all about personal preference and what you want from a sim. I don't care about modability as long as the original content is well done and doesn't get boring in a few minutes. I would like to have a possibility to add cars and tracks to LFS, but that would also mean there would be lots of low quality mods out there and multiplayer would become hell because of incompatibility issues.
Each to their own I guess. I've tried pretty much all race sims there are out there while trying to stay as neutral and open minded as possible to them. I might give rFactor another try some day because when I tried it it had just been released and pretty much no mods were out back then (not to mention patches). There is no such thing as a perfect sim out there.
Both rF and LFS are very good, so is GTL (the ring in a Ford Capri so fun). I prefer LFS (atm) because i like the "slidey" feel to it, its the only game where when you push to the limit your balancing the car, making little adjustments and corrections. rF and GTL seem to grip a lot, then the back will step out and you loose the feeling in the car, but that depends on what car you're driving. Cant wait till the CTDP F1 mod comes out for rF
I think maybe the reason a lot of people feel this way initially is down to the lame default FF settings, because I know it's certainly not that way for me. I can feel every little bump in the road, I can feel when the back end is going to come round and how much opposite lock is needed when it does come round, I can even hold a drift as long as I haven't unbalanced the car too much.
I've been racing the McLaren F1 mod most of the weekend, I find it the most immersive mod so far, IMHO the physics are more accurate/better modelled than anything else in rF to date. I'll see if I can grab a couple of little clips showing some tail out opposite lock action, honestly it is more than just possible, and huge amounts of fun
Could anyone share some advice or tweaked settings to make rFactor feel nicer? I'm using a modified ini I found on another forum, and it feels okay - a lot better than stock, but I can't actually feel most things, and holding a car sideways is damned close to impossible.
Rts: The best I found was BWX's post on RSC and the ones I'm currently using. It definitely allows me to feel every bump or there abouts and the difference can be felt when the front wheels start to lose grip etc (this was one feeling I didn't have with the stock configuration). Now, when hammering into a tight corner (the tight right hander at Magny Cours springs to mind after the massive straight(ish).. sorry, I dunno corner names) in the XRT I'm doing.. I can feel the back end get very light after jamming on the brakes. A combination of weight shifting and the diff locking (after a few yards).. but it's a great feeling for trail braking
Powersliding is very much down to each car to me. Some I can do it with (the Cobra for example will hang the arse end out seemingly indefinitely and stable).. the XRT will to an extent but the OEM cars I find much much harder.
I hope this isn't out of place too much, if the mods feel it is, please remove.. but my current settings are (for DFP with 540 degree rotation I think):
[ Force Feedback ] FFB Device Type="1" // Type of FFB controller: 0=none 1=wheel, 2=stick/custom, 3=rumble pad. FFB Effects Level="4" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom. FFB Gain="0.54483" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0. FFB Ignore Controllers="0" // Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers) FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis. FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis. FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.50000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration. FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.03517" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point). FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude). FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB steer force average weight="0.95000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency. [DEFAULT: 0.6] FFB steer force exponent="0.88276" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity. FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction). FFB steer force output max="1.80000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0 FFB steer force grip weight="0.90000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force. FFB steer force grip factor="0.60000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6 (previously hardcoded to 0.4). How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight. FFB steer front grip fract="0.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0 (previous hardcoded value was 0.0), additional effect of front grip loss on steering force FFB steer update thresh="0.01500" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate. FFB steer friction coefficient="0.17500" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0 FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0 FFB steer damper coefficient="0.12069" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0 FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0 FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.17000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50 FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.08966" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point). FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude). FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.08000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0) FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.90000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency. FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.10069" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point). FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude). FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0) FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.35000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect. FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.60000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev. FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB rumble strip pull factor="-1.50345" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5. FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0) FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
As I say, thanks goes to BWX for these as I simply copy / pasted them from his post with slight modification perhaps, can't remember, heh.. but it's his work
No need for that TA.. we all rant.. hell, I've done more than my fair share
You made your post which you felt at the time but you never got nasty about things (none of the thread has gone that way for a change, which is cool.. I've certainly enjoyed weighing up the pros and cons of both ) and everyone's entitled to their opinion. Some won't like it.. even knowing what sort of game it is, some will.. same for all games.. but the best part is that the thread continued amicably IMO
If ya don't like it for whatever reasons you have, fair play.. no need to feel guilty for your thoughts / feelings though
Thanks for the settings Ian, I will give them a go tomorrow. I'm also going to try and configure my new Act labs shifter/performance pedals in rF, hopefully it won't give me any problems.
Personally, I enjoy both, I have only recently given rFactor a fair go, never bothered with it before due to the amount of flak its recieved. I like how mod-able it is - has its ups and downs espically when it comes to online play, but I like it, its more of a framework than a sim out the box, and these days I think there's now some pretty good quality mods about. I always come back to LFS for online play though - thats where it really shines, in no small amount because how simple it is.
Newp.. open your controller.ini file... you'll see the [Force Feedback] in there. Just replace that section and voila! (would backup your controller.ini file first though ).
Most definitely! I haven't played rF online for a fair while now (actually have it disabled in my PLR file to speed up loading) but after the first few weeks, when the 15mins of fame glory seekers released their crap converted tracks that looked better in the game they got them from illepall which were then patched 3 times a day for the next 2 weeks.. pick-up racing became somewhat of a thing of the past. LFS as you say also has a much easier interface to online racing too. That's one part I do miss.. the friendly atmosphere of online. My comparison here to rF has always been "LAN party vs Internet Café". LFS seems very open, friendly.. people generally get along.. I always felt like an individual with rF, even if I knew some people on the servers.. felt like I was in my own little booth and everyone else was in theirs, rather than congregating in an open-plan space type feeling
Offline can be a real blast... just managed a 9:55 at The Ring with the Cobra :banana:
so whats the general verdict on Netkar pro? The textures and screenshots I've seen look nice, never dowloaded its 235mb and never tried it. ANyone with some balanced rant-free judgement tell me what I could expect?
Sorry Al, can't do that one I'm afraid as I've not even tried the demo. I heard of way too many basic issues with it to bother downloading it. Might try it in 6 months time or so, but the biggest thing that puts me off is last I heard there was going to be some funky pay scheme just to be able to drive some tracks online. This goes against all my principles of add-on content like that created by the community.. not because I'm a freeloader, but it's the way I work too.. Open-Source style communities rock The SDK for modding won't be free either from what I heard.. making it more of a commercial investment for modding I think.
The gfx do look good and I like the idea of an interactive cockpit to an extent but not sure how much of a gimmick that would become in the end to me as the first thing I often look for in an app / program is keyboard shortcuts
Neither game is perfect.. and not really comparable IMO.. both contain cars and tracks with the idea to get from A-A again as quickly as possible, but that's where the comparison ends to me.
but I've had the Cobra and 250GTO for a few months as Lo sends me previews from time to time of his stuff :banana: but he's tried to turn a bad situation into a good one by using this now as a public beta test 
Eau Rouge is certainly an interesting corner in one, heh.
By default all cars have a visible rotation of about 200 degrees, which I guess what your 'average' wheel rotation is, excluding DFPs (which can also be locked to 200 btw, with a button combo). I don't see how they could set the 'correct' rotation in the first place as unless they could query the controller driver how would they know what rotation your wheel is? As far as I am aware LFS doesn't set this itself, you set it in the GUI.
illepall which were then patched 3 times a day for the next 2 weeks.. pick-up racing became somewhat of a thing of the past. LFS as you say also has a much easier interface to online racing too. That's one part I do miss.. the friendly atmosphere of online. My comparison here to rF has always been "LAN party vs Internet Café". LFS seems very open, friendly.. people generally get along.. I always felt like an individual with rF, even if I knew some people on the servers.. felt like I was in my own little booth and everyone else was in theirs, rather than congregating in an open-plan space type feeling