Quote from ShannonN :

Hmmn Have they changed the colour of the roads in the 16 years since i toured the UK and drove over 20,000 miles in about twelve months

Yeah the tarmac got older and thus got lighter. The taxes we're paying aren't going to fix our roads (probably going to fix up the roads in some other country we've invaded).

Quote from ShannonN :

looking at all the awesome old stuff?

As one American tourist once said to me, "They sure don't build stuff this old any more!"

High res/Low res... Is it me or the only difference I see from screenshots is the color of the asphalt... No other change?

I don't notice quality difference either. I'd much rather see BETTER textures, rather than just a resolution change to be honest. Besides, the resolution change looks to be upscaling a bitmap, so you really have no quality change AT ALL. If you had a higher resolution texture, it needs to be 'higher resolution' with finer details and less blurring.

Quote from Tweaker :

I don't notice quality difference either. I'd much rather see BETTER textures, rather than just a resolution change to be honest. Besides, the resolution change looks to be upscaling a bitmap, so you really have no quality change AT ALL. If you had a higher resolution texture, it needs to be 'higher resolution' with finer details and less blurring.

The detail in the LFS textures is enough... It's just that the textures are stretched too much... It looks like there's entire boulders in the road.

I'm currently trying to create new textures using community rFactor tracks (wasn't supposed to be released, but might need to dig up some names and give credit/ask permission) and remapping those (low res) textures to create entirely new highres textures for LFS. Unfortunately, most textures are repetetive to the max, so it's turning out to be a lot more work than initially expected.

Quote from TagForce :

But isn't that track mostly concrete?

[ snip ]

Ahh quite possibly Tag.. I was "umm"ing and "ahh"ing about it when I posted, heh

Either way, a great track



Regards,

Ian

Sounds good and looks good but when i try to download it the file size is 0 bytes. Tried a few times now, anyone know whats wrong?

edit: all working now thanks.

Quote from Tweaker :

I don't notice quality difference either. I'd much rather see BETTER textures, rather than just a resolution change to be honest. Besides, the resolution change looks to be upscaling a bitmap, so you really have no quality change AT ALL. If you had a higher resolution texture, it needs to be 'higher resolution' with finer details and less blurring.

agree.
- you dont get better quality just by making resolution changes or by
upscaling.

...its like burning your old videotapes onto dvd and expecting dvd quality.

Quote :

High res/Low res... Is it me or the only difference I see from screenshots is the color of the asphalt... No other change?

Which screeny, the before/after somebody posted is a bit low to the ground and so mip mapping has taken over.

Quote :

rather than just a resolution change to be honest. Besides, the resolution change looks to be upscaling a bitmap, so you really have no quality change AT ALL. If you had a higher resolution texture, it needs to be 'higher resolution' with finer details and less blurring.

I didn't mention it in this thread (I did in the original Fern Bay test) so I can't be sarcastic at you, sadly I was right in the mood for that! Anyway the change I have made is not simply to scale the images up. I'm not quite as dumb as you believe.

Yes I scaled the originals up and used them as a base, but I then applied a secondary detail layer to add in quality to the original texture. Because the old texture is still the base colour the change I have made has retained the original style of the skin, although the colour has lightened a little.

So whilst this has not made "full use" of the extra texture detail, it has added some more definition to the road and at the same time maintained the original graphical style of the game.

With regards the colour of the tarmac I think the general consensus is about right and I should (unless somebody else does another pack) go back and change a few of the tracks.

Quote :

agree.
- you dont get better quality just by making resolution changes or by
upscaling.

...its like burning your old videotapes onto dvd and expecting dvd quality.

I disagree, try it before dissing it. Or at least pay attention in class... Would I have released it if there was no improvement at all?

a big wet "doh!" to the pair of you. What do you take me for?

They arn't the best textures in the world, but if I just made them bigger dont you think I would have noticed everything looked the same?



I know there's a couple of minor issues to fix still, those green infields at Kyoto being one - so maybe i'll release an update soon with some improvements after taking onboard some of the comments here and other ideas elsewhere, but this isn't a high priority for me and i've got a lot of stuff on the go at the moment. I've barely time to even play LFS atm!

Quote from Becky Rose :

Would I have released it if there was no improvement at all?

Dunno, but will people download it and use it if there is no visible improvement at all? :o

Because like I said, I'd much rather use a MUCH higher quality texture with finer details, than use something that virtually looks the same as the original/default, only lighter. I don't think people would want to have a bundle of increased-resolution track textures when there is hardly any visible difference.

But at least you have many people coming up with ideas. It is good to see people actually wanting to have higher resolution textures in the game, so now people are making some nice texture packs I'll bet

EDIT: Oh and as far as I know, the Mip Bias in LFS only affects distant textures and making them smoother. Being close up to the texture and seeing a smooth texture is hardly a result of LFS's Mip Bias. You'd actually be seing the texture's full quality close up in LFS.

Tbh, I had to look over the before / after pic a few times to try and spot a difference and although I can see a VERY small difference, not enough that makes it stand out as a low-res / hi-res comparison.

Upscaling really won't work (been there, tried it) and even some hi-res textures look crap in game (I tried a few road textures from a TotalTextures CD.. a scary result in a game!). Adding detail over an upscaled base might work for some grass effects and "worn out patches" or the likes, but not too well on tarmac IMO (not slating anyone's work here, just some things I've tried and found and I'm far from being a pro texture artist).

The biggest thing I noticed in the FE pics in post 1 is that by upscaling the base textures, it accentuates the pink and green (noise filter?) making it stand out quite a bit whereas before it was more subtle. I personally think any texture updates need to be redone from a new base if you want to enhance detail in any way.

My £0.02 on the topic anyway



Regards,

Ian

I think the pink and green was due to the fact that Becky might have been using 16-bit colors oops!

At least that is the common problem with 16-bit... aswell as the sky having visible steps.

EDIT: But if Becky says that is TRULY all settings maxed out, well then, thats odd....

thats why we never used audio-cd's for gym... cause everyone wants to hear his/her own songs...
instead i see young/grownup people arguing about the ROAD COLOR ?????
dont you have better thing to do?
MAYBEE to lend someone's HI-RES cam and actually shoot some pics, to be freely used...

or other way around would be some noise algos combined like in c4d possible to create some neat "fine-looking" hi-res tex.

IanH+Tweaker: You have give your critique on the texture pack in some depth, but have either of you actually tried it? I'm curious to know because your posts do not seem to refer to the textures in use and instead seem to mention only a screenshot.

The pack isn't perfect and it could be better, I made it to quickly produce some higher res textures for those who wanted to use them, and they make a general improvement on the game in my opinion. To me they look better than the old texture and add definition.

You could always fire up an art package and get to it yourself, as for me, i'm not wasting my track time "working" for you on textures and complying with your ideals of how to do it. I might make some alterations and improvements but I wont be publishing any updates I dont think. It's too much grief dealing with "complaints" - and i'm not even convinced you're users...

Do I somehow have to still be using it to be classified as a user? There is testing you know. And it being a quick production, I wasn't expecting something that is a "keeper" (is still WIP isn't it?). I gave my input, that's all I can say about it too.

Sorry if you are frustrated, but typically when you come across threads entitled "High Quality Textures", you will assume that is what is prepared. Example being, KiD & Don's skies. Also, the fact that it is a rework of the already poor quality default textures, it doesn't have too many people excited. I support your efforts thus far, but the best option would be to work on a texture pack that is complete, and has noticeable differences to actually call it 'high quality', and release it in all its wonder.

I don't see this as a waste of time, actually... it is probably best that you posted it and recieved some comments and suggestions. If you're not open to them, you might not get very far.... and that isn't what some of us want to see happen.

I'm glad people are working on stuff too, because nobody has really attempted doing many texture projects. Not to mention, it seems many of us are trying to solve the wierd texture mapping for the most part... so this is all beneficial.

Quote from Becky Rose :

IanH+Tweaker: You have give your critique on the texture pack in some depth, but have either of you actually tried it? I'm curious to know because your posts do not seem to refer to the textures in use and instead seem to mention only a screenshot.

The pack isn't perfect and it could be better, I made it to quickly produce some higher res textures for those who wanted to use them, and they make a general improvement on the game in my opinion. To me they look better than the old texture and add definition.

You could always fire up an art package and get to it yourself, as for me, i'm not wasting my track time "working" for you on textures and complying with your ideals of how to do it. I might make some alterations and improvements but I wont be publishing any updates I dont think. It's too much grief dealing with "complaints" - and i'm not even convinced you're users...

LOL oh palease! get off your soap box!

Look around, re-read.. I made some observations and hopefully added some info about what / why I made those observations. I've been there, I've done it (currently building 3 complete tracks from scratch including textures and learning as it's my first time.. again what I've posted is also from my own findings by doing it myself ). I posted a quick test of FEClub yesterday

I'm no expert as I openly admit.. but you seem to have taken the critique quite harshly. If you do things for public consumption, you need thicker skin. I noticed this while quickly browsing the FAQ on your sailing forum too with a pretty much "if you don't like it... F.O!" attitude.. again not good for public release material.. EVERYTHING has errors and people will "complain" as you put it (I didn't read any complaints.. just observations and possible suggestions).

Shame you feel this way.. looking at your site you obviously have some talent (and some of the games listed I loved as a kid on my Spectrum / Amiga).. but you need more of an open-mind and open to suggestions.

Again just my £0.02.. so take it as you see fit



Regards,

Ian

OK so you tried it, that's better at least, because previously you where passing comments on the screens only - and what am I supposed to say to that?

As for my take it or leave it attitude, yeah - and? I do what interests me and in terms of my own work with the Banshee team on games, we do what we want to do and when we've got what we want we share the result, we'll listen to critique sure, but if we dont want to change things or have moved on to another project then that's that. Take it or leave it, we're not charging you for our pasttime.

More often than not when I read critique it is unsubstantiated, like when I read feedback on the update to the sailing game on a forum recently some guy went in to one about textures, then admitted he was only looking at an [old] promo shot. Sometimes I just bang my head against the wall, because on internet forums far too many people speak when they shouldn't and too few speak when they should. It's all about spare time + ego, and nothing at all to do with the quality of the post.

Or there's the ones when somebody says the game is screwed up, or their system is screwed up, and the release thread turns into a long diatribe of how it's messed up the system - but turns out to be a user error or malware or something already wrong on the system.

So over time i've developed a take it or leave it attitude. Because believe it or not, there really is no advantage to releasing anything in the public domain. In terms of Banshee Studios, it's a huge expense, and all we get for the effort is our work ripped off and being flogged in Japan and Spain.

:soapbox:

I like your textures Becky, "high quality" or not, they remove the white texture seams for me

I did install them to check, yes. I like to test things, especially like this as it's also an interest I have.. gfx in general are a big interest of mine (whether I'm good at it is another story ).

I took 3 overhead screenshots at Blackwood as a comparison on my box. 1 of the texture I made (wasn't designed for LFS tracks.. but it started from a 1024x1024 rather than enlarging), your textures and the originals respectively:

NOTE: Extreme 56k WARNING.. images are 2Mb each
http://www.modmunkees.org/tmp/screenshots/bl1/ih.png
http://www.modmunkees.org/tmp/screenshots/bl1/br.png
http://www.modmunkees.org/tmp/screenshots/bl1/oem.png

Looking at these, I'd say you've infact _lost_ some detail (albeit minimal, at least in these shots.. but is noticable IMO). The "stones" in my texture are supposed to be small / smooth (intended for a kart track) so perhaps not the best comparison for that, but the surface cracks etc are still very detailed.

I do agree with you to a point about how you do things. To some extents I'm the same.. I do things for me adn if others like them too, it's a bonus.. but in this case, IMO, you've offered these to a community as a better product than what came with the game so to me, it's not done for you and if others like it, great.. you've done this _for_ others too. Many people have criticised my LFS 3DS scenes.. over lit, few smoothing issues.. whatever.. I did them originally for myself but thney became very popular. I've taken the comments / criticisms into account and learnt and plan to update them at some point. Sometimes the line drawn is better flexed to accomodate I think.. buit not always of course.

I normally have a bad habit of bashing things I don't like. I don't mince my words, it wastes time but tried to offer some sort of constructive criticism rather than just saying "don't like em, look the same.. they're crap" or whatever (not saying they _are_ crap, just that _I_ don't see much difference). Discussions like this I learn from too as more people put in their own input.. much the same as the LFS devs will use the forum as a guide to what people would like to see added / changed.

$DAY_JOB also includes customer / tech support so I understand where you're coming from on many aspects.. and see many "your $WHATEVER screwed up my box!". But after a fashion and you go through it.. you remove 200 bits of spyware, 50 viruses and it runs smoothly suddenly you're not at fault.. but lucky if you get a thanks

As for public domain, it's always been the same since I remember high phone bills, a 2400baud modem and good ol' BBSes but I'm still a strong believer in both PD and Open-Source. 99% of whatever I've done and released has been free.. be it gfx, small apps / tools or otherwise but it's always a shame when things get ripped off (I'll be trying your JetPac game soon.. loved that on the Speccy ).

Anyways.. I had hoped my input was more constructive than destructive and still hope that this can explain that I wasn't simply slating your work / efforts. I knows what's involved even if not done a great deal and the texture pack you've supplied is BIG! so obviously spent a fair while on things. As I said before, you've obviously got some talent.. and think if you started with a better base texture things would look a whole lot better.

I still think Eric did a great job with the resolutions he's used.. the grass in particular. My main gripe in the texture aspect is not even the detail so much, just that I get massive amounts of sparkly effects on the road surfaces. This can be cured somewhat by adjusting the mip bias.. but I get the same effect for example if I use the same mip bias for spec and bump maps on surfaces.. the lighting pics out the highlights too far into the distance creating sparkly effects. Normally I'll set the diffuse texture to -3 or -4 and spec / bump to -0.5 - -0.8. Not sure how this all works in LFS though as it seems to use a single texture

One thing I have found out though.. texturing certainly isn't easy



Regards,

Ian

Im finally finnished with unsharpen mask/sharpen all the dds files.
... and I must say.. it looks feee.. amazing.
- everything stands out so clearly and I discover trackdetails
I never noticed before.

Me looouuvee it.

- the pack includes my IRL texturepack, interior edits, suits and marshall.

http://www.badongo.com/file/723087

Its difficult to explain what Ive done with showing screenies, but here u go.
note: I have NOT made photoshop polishing of the screenies.
- they are raw. - just cropd.

If you dl the pack, then first thing to do is watch a replay from wheels view, in South City. Looks faaaaaab....

Indeed it does look faaaaaab!

Had to remove the gloves and cromowheel from your pack (what is that wheel all about ), and then I had to unsharp my own pitroad textures (all my tracks have red pit road tarmac on them), but other than that I am using yours.

Very good work Bo.

Previews look very promising, going to download now
Thanks

Quote from tristancliffe :

Indeed it does look faaaaaab!

Had to remove the gloves and cromowheel from your pack (what is that wheel all about ), and then I had to unsharp my own pitroad textures (all my tracks have red pit road tarmac on them), but other than that I am using yours.

Very good work Bo.

ohh... me wheel...
-thats my modified DFP. -it looks like that in IRL also.

this is great!

Yup. just tested it and it looks great
Good Job Bo