I found something quite interesting today. The generally accepted answer of "what do you do in an oversteer situation" is "countersteer" and when asked "cadence braking or foot on the floor?" most people would answer "cadence".

This Israel (I think) advanced driving school begs to differ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... 9Rjpk&feature=related
The gist of this is, slamming on the brakes when the back comes out is safer on the road than attempting to countersteer. There's also some good stuff there on understeer and tyre pressures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p;feature=player_embedded
This is quite an interesting counter-point to the "cadence braking is better" stance taken by most 'experts' over here. Maslulim teaches that locking up = stopping quicker. Obviously ABS is better as you can steer to avoid the hazard, but that's not the point they're making. Again, there's tyre pressure stuff and an interesting point on "brake hard means BRAKE HARD!" too.

Give it a watch and offer your opinions, the conclusion I've taken from it is that countersteering is only for the track... I may give this a go in LFS later...

he has some good points

Quote from TiJay :

The gist of this is, slamming on the brakes when the back comes out is safer on the road than attempting to countersteer.

if i had done that i wouldnt have been able to go round a single corner this winter

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This is quite an interesting counter-point to the "cadence braking is better" stance taken by most 'experts' over here.

you must have misunderstood the experts
any driving instructor will tell you to stomp on the brakes as hard as you can and only let go if the car is actually stepping out of line which it rarely does

Quote from Shotglass :

any driving instructor will tell you to stomp on the brakes as hard as you can and only let go if the car is actually stepping out of line which it rarely does

That is what I was told. Jump on the brakes and try and keep it in a straight line.

Although I wasn't told to apply oppo and power out when on the road, just a bit of oppo and let the car slow down to regain control.

Countersteering in an FWD car itself isn't a bad thing to do, but he also applied the throttle :|

I agree with the cadence braking though. I just can't convince my dad that it won't help him stop any quicker. When cadence breaking, one also releases the brake pedal for short moments.

Psychoman: do you ever read Sniffpetrol?

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That is what I was told. Jump on the brakes and try and keep it in a straight line.

I was told to never lock the brakes ever, but I learned to drive relatively recently (3 years), so perhaps the attitude has changed inbetween your test and mine?

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if i had done that i wouldnt have been able to go round a single corner this winter

I think he's saying its inherently safer as there's no danger of a pendulum and also assumes you want to stop and gather your thoughts after an "oh shit" moment

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he also applied the throttle

The people I've talked to (on internet forums) who took the course there prefer throttle application instead of countersteering in an FWD, saying countersteering with throttle may cause pendulums and without any throttle is highly likely to pendulum and kill you.

Quote from hrtburnout :

Countersteering in an FWD car itself isn't a bad thing to do, but he also applied the throttle :|

applying throttle in an fwd while countersteering is a pretty good way to get out of the oversteer quickly as the fwd is able to pull itself out of a slide

Quote from TiJay :

I think he's saying its inherently safer as there's no danger of a pendulum and also assumes you want to stop and gather your thoughts after an "oh shit" moment

i must say i generally agree with his views on countersteering as far as the general public is concerned
however in some cases ie driving a car that wants to kill you on snow countersteering is often the only way to actually get anywhere

also i dont know why people are that scared of pendulums
ive had a punto get into a fishtail twice and im still alive
granted once wa on a road thats barely wide enough for 2 cars so im a bit lucky there wasnt any oncomming traffic but we would have crashed either way if there had been
based on those experiences i must say that driving an inherently unsafe car might be safer in the long run as something like a punto lulls you into a sence of safety causing you to react too slow and too viguorusly once a patch of black ice or similar yanks you out of it

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i must say i generally agree with his views on countersteering as far as the general public is concerned
however in some cases ie driving a car that wants to kill you on snow countersteering is often the only way to actually get anywhere

Agreed. Remember, while you were sliding your RWD beast (RX-7?) around, most people in Europe (except Scandinavia cos they're all rally drivers!) were spinning their wheels trying to get off their driveways or staying in bed because they think the Evil Weather Will Kill Them.

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must say that driving an inherently unsafe car might be safer in the long run

Also agreed... But for most people, driver training would have to improve signifcantly or the world would be (even more) full of hatchbacks in trees.

Quote from hrtburnout :

Psychoman: do you ever read Sniffpetrol?

Can't say I do, why?

Quote from TiJay :

I was told to never lock the brakes ever, but I learned to drive relatively recently (3 years), so perhaps the attitude has changed inbetween your test and mine?

The advice I was given was avoid locking the wheels if you can, but when someone steps out in front of you, just try and stop. Although I've not locked the wheels on a car unless I was really trying to. But at the same time, I've never had the need to emergency brake, I just plan ahead.

My driving instructor never taught me how to do an emergency stop. It's pretty basic knowledge. Apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking the wheels, so it stops as quickly as possible. Cadence braking is an old technique, recommended by my dad. Cadence braking also implies releasing the brake pedal for short periods of time, and those periods of time increase your braking distance.

Quote from TiJay :

The people I've talked to (on internet forums) who took the course there prefer throttle application instead of countersteering in an FWD, saying countersteering with throttle may cause pendulums and without any throttle is highly likely to pendulum and kill you.

I agree with those people.

Quote from Shotglass :

applying throttle in an fwd while countersteering is a pretty good way to get out of the oversteer quickly as the fwd is able to pull itself out of a slide

That's true, but it can lead to pendulums if not done well. Ofcourse I master this in LFS perfectly, but on the road it might be somewhat more difficult.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Can't say I do, why?

Link

"At nine-tenths the Yeti is as frisky as Seabiscuit and just as rewarding. But the really good news is that when you poke this snow monster with the sharp stick of helmsmanship it comes back smiling. Mid-bend I lifted off, felt the tail go light, simply caught it with a dab of oppo and I was away.The Skoda Yeti S 1.2 TSI is a bitch. And I spanked it."

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Ofcourse I master this in LFS perfectly, but on the road it might be somewhat more difficult.

Even in LFS when you catch it (which is SO easy to do in the XFG), you use a lot more road than you do if you slam the brakes on

Quote from hrtburnout :

Apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking the wheels, so it stops as quickly as possible. Cadence braking is an old technique, recommended by my dad. Cadence braking also implies releasing the brake pedal for short periods of time, and those periods of time increase your braking distance.

Fine if you are talented enough to reach threshold braking in the emergency. But if you lock up then you can release pressure and reapply.

In the video he seems to release the brakes entirely, and takes quite a long time to rebuild brake pressure. That's just rubbish.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In the video he seems to release the brakes entirely, and takes quite a long time to rebuild brake pressure. That's just rubbish.

Exactly what i thought. An efficient way to use cadence braking is too apply full pressure until tyres lock, decrease until they are spinning, apply till lock. You don't have to fully release the brake pedal. That's just dim.

Maximum grip of a tyre is when it has not quite lost grip. Not when it's not spinning and just sliding.

He does seem to do stuff wrong deliberately to reinforce his point (for example, the driver in the oversteer video intentionally over-corrected) and to show what an average driver would do in that situation, therefore demonstrating why his method is generally safer for everyone.

Yes, a talented driver may be able to do cadence braking really well and catch a slide perfectly, but his job isn't teaching talented drivers - it's stopping normal drivers killing themselves.

EDIT: To the post below.

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But i think that if u steer back in time then it should be okay.

I think the aim of his method is to eliminate the "if" factor.

Dont know, in some ways its true. But i think that if u steer back in time then it should be okay. Just my opinion. As much ive driven FWD cars and ATV's. Countersteering has worked for me but im not sure how it works on asphault. Ive never had the guts to drift an ATV on it <.<

Quote from hazaky :

but im not sure how it works on asphault. Ive never had the guts to drift an ATV on it <.<

Fine until you suddenly catch traction, then you are looking at a world of pain.

Quote from TiJay :

Agreed. Remember, while you were sliding your RWD beast (RX-7?) around, most people in Europe (except Scandinavia cos they're all rally drivers!) were spinning their wheels trying to get off their driveways or staying in bed because they think the Evil Weather Will Kill Them.

mr2 actually and i got stuck more times than id like to remember since i never got round to buying winter tyres (stupid i know) so i had to use the punto quite a few times since its summer tyres at least have a profile thats able to generate a morsel of traction on snow

Quote from hrtburnout :

That's true, but it can lead to pendulums if not done well. Ofcourse I master this in LFS perfectly, but on the road it might be somewhat more difficult.

by the nature of it with countersteering you have a much higher chance of getting into a tankslapper than with steering straight and applying throttle

also thats why you have to practice for these sort of situations or in other words
empty car park + snow + car = fun

Quote from Shotglass :

by the nature of it with countersteering you have a much higher chance of getting into a tankslapper than with steering straight and applying throttle

also thats why you have to practice for these sort of situations or in other words
empty car park + snow + car = fun

I agree. Alas, I don't have a car and the snow is gone.

If you jump on the brakes (in a RWD car) when it starts to go, particularly on really slippery surfaces then you WILL spin, if not go into a 4 wheel slide, its as simple as that, pissing about with brakes will not save it, all that might is opposite lock and plenty of throttle to bring it back straight again if your lucky, but if you have ended up at an overly stupid angle to start with then you will probably spin anyway.

In a front wheel drive car, if you have managed to end up sideways then you are going like a lunatic anyway, so you can either brake and slide into something, or attempt to power out of it, which will induce more understeer depending how slippery it is, but you shouldnt opposite lock in a FWD ever, as it will only snatch the car in the wrong direction when it does grip again.

It is easy to induce oversteer in a FWD on wet roads, just g ofairly hard into a bend then back totally off the throttle, chance are the back will step out if its slippery enough, but re applying the throttle will pull it straight usually.

Quote from danthebangerboy :

but you shouldnt opposite lock in a FWD ever, as it will only snatch the car in the wrong direction when it does grip again.

not if you know the right amount of counter steering needed on a FWD car and compliment it with some throttle input.

I'm in the USA, and very few cars sold here, will oversteer, regardless of AWD, FWD, or RWD, except from excessive throttle on RWD cars.

Whether or not to countersteer, depends on what caused the oversteer to occur. If it's because of excessive throttle input on a RWD car, then you ease off the throttle and countersteer. If oversteer occurs while braking, then countersteering would make the situation worse, and you'd be better off leaving the steering where it is or inducing understeer by steering inwards. In a street situation, you'd want to slow down enough before releasing the brakes that any pendulum effect will be small enough that you don't initiate another oversteer condition. In a racing situation, you only use enough input to recover from the oversteer, but even expert racing drivers sometimes overcorrect.

Most cars sold in the USA have abs, leaving just motorcycles as the main vehicles sold here that don't have abs. If the streets are wet, then I drive more cautiously (and I avoid driving the motorcycle when it's wet).

In the case of real racing or racing game with RWD cars, depending on the car, it's common to use more steering input (semi-induced understeer) in a turn while slowing, and less steering input (semi-countersteering) in a turn while accelerating. Example video, showing in car view above, and chase view below allowing you to see the steering inputs, tire orientation, and car's response:

http://rcgldr.net/gpl/gplrngs.wmv

off topic for a little then o.t.

me and my brother were driving in a rental toyota matrix (pontiac vibe) and i spotted a deer on the road crossing into our lane. i alerted him and startled he stood on the brakes til he stopped. for the average driver abs will save you, for the poor driver esp will save you in corners, and in emergencies both will.

for experienced drivers it is much different, since it was a rental car i asked him to try to threshold brake without the abs kicking in, so he tried and while trying he diddnt come very close to it, so when you are thinking you dont come very close to your limits much at all.

visit this website for information if it is of value, its a great site http://www.drivingfast.net/

You may stop quicker by locking the wheels, but then you've pretty much lost control of the car, you might as well had removed the steering wheel because the car could go anywhere, like up a pavement and mow a load of people down. Especially if your brakes are a bit more out of balance than normal.

Perhaps locking the wheels is less risky at quite low speeds, but at any real speed you could end up going a long way off the road.

In the video even at only 30mph the car has started to go of course.

Here's another look at cadence braking (including clutch+ braking): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... 5PmV4&feature=channel

Spin control using your feet is covered in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p0Y7g&feature=channel

did i fail to say the abs kicked in and that was plenty?

that car had abs that could not be shut off