Quote from VoiD :

lol

LOL!

Too friggin funny ahahahahaa

pmsl , love his appeal

Complaint:- Driving backwards

Appeal - "Where does it state I should drive forward?"

The appeal is awesome. :ices_rofl:

Just throwing in my two cents.

While any sort of system linking multiple servers, especially when crossing teamserver lines, would be great, they would almost inevitably rely on participation. When you consider the amount of people we currently have (ignoring the amount of drifters and
cruisers) I think the number of active racers has gone done. Not to mention the amount of racers that are quite simply demo drivers (I think the developers ought to rethink their demo structure but that's a different arguement). If you're hopeful, maybe you could squeeze all those people from servers with only 2, 3 or 4 people in them into the system. The only way for a major system to survive is if these people, the ones who stick to their local servers by themselves, come out and support. Now, someone could easily come along and say, "We'll everyone just took off before the patch" but just think about how long the hype will last (my guess is 7-8 months) before people begin to moan again. Then we go back to server wastelands. The way I see it, only two or three servers, which are almost always all GTR servers IMO, can last in the long run. The question is, can a massive system be facilited when there may only be 100 users online at any moment? Also, is there enough motivated and dedicated people in our community to run this sytem, especially if it is intend to run 24/7?

I havnt had a chance to read all your posts in full yet, but in response to adminning my concept wasn't to cover administration of open servers at all.

The idea was to create 2 "pro" servers, which change weekly an is moved between different server operating groups, with all other servers in lfs being the equivellent of CTRAs first tier - and all of them being adminning entirely privately.

Access to the pro servers being earnable on a weekly basis on any server by completing enough of the weekly challenges, ie "win a 5 or more car race in an LX6", "complete 10 consecutive laps without yellow flag". There could be a choice of criterea each week.

The point being the new system would not introduce any extra administration than the existing LFS userbase handles, and makes no decisions or access to the system dependabt upon it. Servers would continue to maintain their own ban/user lists.

Many of you would have heard about the new "LFS experience index" which has been added to airio lately. We at IHR will be implementing this into our servers soon. Exact details are not decided yet but I can tell you that the emphasis is going to be on quality not quantity.

So for now it just was on IHR servers and do nothing?

Quote from Krammeh :

I actually have a copy of the CTRA database as i was given it by SamH way back when. I was planning on releasing a similar system and give the ability for people to 'continue their CTRA career'.

I figured it would no longer work due to the large amount of race servers that are running ario or whatever that mod is called.

You all think its something that I should work on? Could probably get a BETA version up within a couple of weeks.

Let me know your thoughts.

Yesss! Do it, I'm sure there would be alot of help volunteering if you needed it too.

It's an interesting discussion and a nice idea, but I'm afraid I don't see a CTRA-like system being implemented in the foreseeable future. I see people having a go at similar implementations but despite the vast capabilities of systems available to them, like Ario for example, everybody that I've seen try simply fails to grasp the CTRA's distinction.

1. You CAN NOT admin from the driver's seat.
   
   
2. You CAN NOT process your OWN incident complaint.
   
   
3. You CAN NOT show perceivable or demonstrable bias.
   
   
4. You CAN NOT vary your regulatory implementation on favouritism or server status.
   

Nobody, yet, has adhered to any of these fundamental administrative self-moderation principles. I see that the spirit is willing, but it is very clear that the flesh is weak.

It's their servers, and it's their rules. I don't question that for a second.. but until a server administration suite steps up to the plate and delivers FIRMLY, on ALL the above principles collectively and without wavering, we'll never see anything close to a CTRA-like system.

You are right Sam, to recreate the CTRA you need to recreate the ethos not the technical wizardry.

My thoughts on it was not to recreate it at all, as administratively it's simply too big a task to do it at publc server level for a sustained period. That's why I looked to tackle the thins that could be improved with a new system and left out administration from my concept completely.

The CTRA still divides attitudes amongst players, for various reasons and some of them more founded than others, no solution that seeks to moderate or take away can be perfect. This is why I thought an evolution of the concept would be better than an evolution of the implementation.

Quote from Krammeh :

I actually have a copy of the CTRA database as i was given it by SamH way back when. I was planning on releasing a similar system and give the ability for people to 'continue their CTRA career'.

I figured it would no longer work due to the large amount of race servers that are running ario or whatever that mod is called.

You all think its something that I should work on? Could probably get a BETA version up within a couple of weeks.

Let me know your thoughts.

Make sure you have an entire army to keep order on the servers. Despite that, it would be great to see "CTRA" back on the LFS Serverlist! Please do it!

Quote from SamH :

It's an interesting discussion and a nice idea, but I'm afraid I don't see a CTRA-like system being implemented in the foreseeable future. I see people having a go at similar implementations but despite the vast capabilities of systems available to them, like Ario for example, everybody that I've seen try simply fails to grasp the CTRA's distinction.

1. You CAN NOT admin from the driver's seat.
   
   
2. You CAN NOT process your OWN incident complaint.
   
   
3. You CAN NOT show perceivable or demonstrable bias.
   
   
4. You CAN NOT vary your regulatory implementation on favouritism or server status.
   

Nobody, yet, has adhered to any of these fundamental administrative self-moderation principles. I see that the spirit is willing, but it is very clear that the flesh is weak.

It's their servers, and it's their rules. I don't question that for a second.. but until a server administration suite steps up to the plate and delivers FIRMLY, on ALL the above principles collectively and without wavering, we'll never see anything close to a CTRA-like system.

I think the problem is that in order to run such strict rules on yourself as a server admin means giving up on the one thing that makes you want to do it in the first place and that's the fun of racing. I remember you said yourself many times that being an admin of CTRA took all the fun out of racing for you.

I'm not saying that the ethos is wrong, as I agree. That way is one good way of ensuring good impartial adminning. Very hard to implement full time though without completely losing the will to carry on.

Quote from Becky Rose :

That's why I looked to tackle the thins that could be improved with a new system and left out administration from my concept completely.

So, where is the new system?

Quote from menantoll :

I remember you said yourself many times that being an admin of CTRA took all the fun out of racing for you.

I'm not saying that the ethos is wrong, as I agree. That way is one good way of ensuring good impartial adminning. Very hard to implement full time though without completely losing the will to carry on.

Very true. For me, it transpired that I was a much better admin and web developer than I was an LFS racer.. so I was able to plough on with CTRA for a long time after my enthusiasm for racing had fallen away. I also had back-up from a group of admins that were brilliant at their job for a long time, despite the task being pretty much thankless across the board.

I did still race from time to time, and I was able to limit myself to using the same CTRA reporting system as everyone else. The ability to think driver when you're driving and think admin when you're not is something everyone/anyone can achieve, with a bit of self-discipline.

While it's tempting (boy is it tempting) to serve up instant retribution in the server if you get crashed out, by kicking/banning the driver you *think* was responsible for wrecking you, you will always retain credibility and the upper hand (and so will your servers) if you don't do anything that any other driver couldn't do, while you're driving.

The point is that, if you admin from the driving seat, the issue you have to address stops being the original incident and becomes, instead, your "abuse of power". FTR, I'll always regard a driver who uses admin powers (because he's an admin) to make his opinion count more than anyone else in the server as an abuser of power. Save the replay, look at it later. Once you've kicked someone from the server in which you were racing, you're then expected to defend your actions later. You're on the back-foot.. and that's not where you want to be, when you're an admin and when your server's credibility is on the line.

And add to that, you'll lose a driver that's probably an otherwise decent guy, but whose only real offence is his vocal and entirely correct disgust at an admin's abuse of privilege. It is my experience that ~80% of all racing incidents look different in the replay from how they looked at the time, and it's my experience that driving seat admining only ever serves to escalate the problem, and never EVER resolves it.

I haven't been racing for a long time, so I don't really know what the current state of play is. I do know, though, that no servers operate a strict policy of driver/admin separation and it's my opinion that this is the greatest shortfall on servers today.

Quote from cargame.nl :

So, where is the new system?

It's a concept, posted on the first page. Actually I did start to write it a while back but my life got in the way and I stopped, and looking back, there's some things I don't like about the code so I'd likely start over.

Currently I'm using my spare time to develop a computer game, but I've realised I don't have much time to myself at all and I'm working even slower than the VWS is arriving for LFS - so I'm not about to make it any time soon, which is why I put the ideas up for other developers to consider.

Sam is 100% correct in identifying the issues with adminning. But the fact is there is simply too much racing going on to admin it all, that's why I came up with the floating pro servers idea.

so the main probem with CTRA kind of system to solve is on the admin's end, because on the driver's side the numbers of people in races were clearly showing that it was working, and working good
many have said before that money is the simplest answer, and maybe this is true, maybe something like CTRA should in fact be run by the development team, as part of the 'package', a few high quality racing servers, 'on top' of all of the community ones, that you can be banned from for some reasonable time, and so on... even some official events woluld be posssible then, I bet here are a few that wolud really want to be crowned as a LFS (name class) World Chapmion...
and that of course is impossible because there is only 3 of them and they do not want to run it as a bigger team (costs, costs, costs...), and so on...
but this in fact could be the best solution of the problem... if it was possible

from the real solutions I still think that allowing admins to join (and leave) the common system of bans and ranks with classes is the simplest idea to keep a few servers alive and not to flood one or two guys with complaints until they get sick of it... every admin does his part of the job only, but all the others would benefit from it

Quote from Becky Rose :

Currently I'm using my spare time to develop a computer game

Hhmm ok, must be very special then, there are already a lot of computer games out there

(Don't want to demotivate you or something, its just curiosity )

Quote from cargame.nl :

Hhmm ok, must be very special then, there are already a lot of computer games out there

(Don't want to demotivate you or something, its just curiosity )

I know there's a lot out there, over the last 30 years i've written over 100 of them. You wont demotivate me that easily ! And yes, the current project is quite special, it has a unique art style from a well established game asset artist, the music will kick ass too. But as i'm writing it, the gameplay will be simple and there'll be lots of bugs !

Quote :

many have said before that money is the simplest answer

I don't think it is. The income a third party would get from LFS would only be a second income and insufficient to justify an organisation with the professionalism that the CTRA tried to embody (and I think did very well). You wouldn't earn enough from a subscription payment to justify employing professional people, well not UK professionals anyway - you could always factor it out to a country where labour is cheap I guess, but you get what you pay for...

If the developers did they would find themselves hamstrung to act against all but the worst cases of unsporting behaviour, and they would have to try to remain faceless and distant from their decisions.

The CTRA was careful not to put their admins heads on the block for exactly this reason, that's why it was in many ways a thankless task. Remember an admin does not get flowers and chocolates and thanks for banning people: They get abuse, and only abuse, from the very people they are trying to help. If there was an official LFS admin team and a subscription payment to fund them then they would be constantly under fire, and that could only have a negative effect on LFS.

It is impossible to generate good sentiment amongst users as an admin. You are there to handle complaints. Therefor, whenever someone speaks to you they are already complaining - CTRA dismissed over 30% of all submitted reports, and that doesnt include the reports where the reportee was at fault but filed a complaint anyway. Yet all of those reports had a real person behind it - capable of word of mouth advertising - who expected the admin to action and penalise somebody.

An official LFS admin team is simply unworkable, it would have to be 3rd party. Funding it is impossible within the existing LFS culture and ethos, and honestly the wages would be so pittiful as to make funding it fairly pointless.

The only way to make money from the concept is to create some form of business partnership, a marketing collaboration or professionalisation of the top echelons of the sport. When I was working with Sam on the CTRA and STCC project we did investigate some possibilities regarding this, but ultimately, we're just a bunch of hobbyists and that's what it came down too.

well, running a small IT connected business myself I am aware of the fact that it would not finance itself, and that current developement team can not handle it, that's why I am aware it is not really possible, just like I written
but I must admit that I did not take into account the fact that people could change their attitude to the game itself beacuse of their complaints/bans... maybe that's beacuse I use LFS for racing with friends, all of us above 30 yeras old and all of us have so called lifes

but I would really like to have a go on a public server from time to time, without beeing hit everytime I start braking before T1 just to take it clean...

Quote from pandera :

but I would really like to have a go on a public server from time to time, without beeing hit everytime I start braking before T1 just to take it clean...

You are either exagerating here, are very unlucky or you are doing something wrong because I see plenty of full grids pass T1 with all cars getting through fine. I'm not saying pileups don't happen because they do but they don't happen every single time.

Quote from menantoll :

You are either exagerating here, are very unlucky or you are doing something wrong because I see plenty of full grids pass T1 with all cars getting through fine. I'm not saying pileups don't happen because they do but they don't happen every single time.

well, of course it is not every time, but it is at least as often to get hit as not to get hit if you are not in the first 2 rows and when you are at some random server that you just decide to try out because there are some 9 or 10 connections... and I do not have that much time to waste 50% of it... that's exaclly why CTRA was so popular
I didn't try to go public for quite a while, I simply prefer to race with my friends instead

Quote from pandera :

well, of course it is not every time, but it is at least as often to get hit as not to get hit if you are not in the first 2 rows and when you are at some random server that you just decide to try out because there are some 9 or 10 connections... and I do not have that much time to waste 50% of it... that's exaclly why CTRA was so popular
I didn't try to go public for quite a while, I simply prefer to race with my friends instead

Dead Men Racing. Racing is as clean as it's like to get, all very friendly and helpful people and a different combo every week with a 1 hour race on Thursday evenings.

cargame.nl develops...not as clean as wished, but on a good way..good admin work

Quote from CHR20000 :

cargame.nl develops...not as clean as wished, but on a good way..good admin work

Thanks, we trying to do our best for every racer on the server.

Nothing to do with annyythhingg CTRA was known for though. I did my history and it is just interesting to know why some of you are so heavily into LFS that it almost is a lifestyle.

Don't get me wrong, I all respect your religion but in the end its still just a game

From a social point of view it is one of the weirdest games I've ever seen. Not necessarily negative by the way, just challenging.