Quote from Becky Rose :

...

You talk about freedom, but appear to support a party who would see us join the Euro and embroil ourselves in a European Superstate with next to zero democratic accountability. The Lib-Dems put on a cosy lovely cuddly view of themselves but what they propose is less economic freedom and democratic accountability.

The Lib-Dems talk the talk, but they would be a disaster in power. Imagine Labour... on steroids! Yes there are certain policies that make perfect sense though... the opposition to the expansion of CCTV, ID cars etc.... for example. But behind all the talk they would see more powers move away from you as an individual than any other party.

I guess if you combined Lib-Dems stance on CCTV/ID/Database state with the Tories Economic Fundamentals (actually what THEY as a party believe and NOT what they publish) you've got something going. For example the Lib-Dems increase in corporation tax is utter insanity as is their view on the disastrous Euro.

Let's not talk about Labour. 13 years of complete inept economic management oblivious to basic economic fundamentals. Margaret Thatcher once said "Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money" and that pretty much says everything you need to know about the last 13 years.

Quote from Bob Smith :

People are often frightened of change. Although I'm not entirely convinced that changing the party in control will really make all that much difference.

It depends who gets the majority. These days the difference between Conservative and Labour is only in the details, and the difference between Lib-Dem and Green isn't that big either - but the difference between those two groups is staggering. Leave a party in power too long, even the Greens, and they'll soon end up as Tory as the Labour party when they realise how much money can be made out of lobby groups and they've got that feeling they can do anything because they've been in power long enough for the power to go to their heads.

I'm hoping for a Lib Dem government, but next time ... ****'em. No party should ever be allowed to get complacent. I've seen two parties have a third term in my life, and I never want to see it again.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm hoping for a Lib Dem government, but next time ... ****'em. No party should ever be allowed to get complacent. I've seen two parties have a third term in my life, and I never want to see it again.

Vote Lib-Dem and you get Brussels... for life

Quote from Becky Rose :

He created the circumstances and legislative processes that enabled the economic collapse, as chancellor. ****ing stirling job if you ask me.

Your council tax is going to double or treble over the next few years, the councils are broke, and the sheer quantity of services they are required to operate is making the system fall over. Currently things are being artificially propped up, after the election things will change - and next year we are really going to feel it.

Some of the taxes introduced by Labour and their passion for over-beaurocracising cost more to collect than they actually raise.

Said like a true Tory

Quote :

But behind all the talk they would see more powers move away from you as an individual than any other party.

I cannot loose any power, I don't even have a vote. Oh I get the bit of paper but I live in a conservative safe seat. The only power I have is to convince marginals to vote how I would like, but that's being taken away by the impending firewall, free speech is less important than innocent before guilty, and we've already started to loose the latter with the DEB.

As for the Euro, I know you are as much a single issue voter as I am - jusst on a different topic. As I've said before I'm not against Europe, but I'm against the implementation that we have quite strongly. However no party 100%represents my views, and I think we have to fix democracy here before we go fixing it in other countries... And if were going to fix democracy, let's do it by example rather than guns and actually have one.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I cannot loose any power, I don't even have a vote. Oh I get the bit of paper but I live in a conservative safe seat. The only power I have is to convince marginals to vote how I would like, but that's being taken away by the impending firewall, free speech is less important than innocent before guilty, and we've already started to loose the latter with the DEB.

As for the Euro, I know you are as much a single issue voter as I am - jusst on a different topic. As I've said before I'm not against Europe, but I'm against the implementation that we have quite strongly. However no party 100%represents my views, and I think we have to fix democracy here before we go fixing it in other countries... And if were going to fix democracy, let's do it by example rather than guns and actually have one.

To be quite honest Becky you sound like someone who would like the Libertarian Party over any other

Quote from Intrepid :

Said like a true Tory

Or somebody with friends and relative who are part of the 40% of our working population who are paid for by the 60% of the public sector workers.

Do the math.... 1/4 of your wages pays for 40% of the populations wages. It doesn't add up. My council is utterly broke, I know so, my mum works in the council and is horrified by it. My old council is broke, I know so one of my best friends works there and is horrified by it.

3 terms of our weirdly hybrid socialist centre right government has created too much beaurocracy and somehow we have to pay for it.

Ask your friends / relatives who work in the civil service, I assume 40% or so of the working ones do.

In any case wev already firmly established that w don't agree poliically, or indeed on any subject at all, so there's little to be gained by us discussing it. I'm not going to try and convince you of anything, I'll just field any objections you make.

Quote from Luke.S :

I think next general election some LFS guys should run for parliament.

Danowat. He's good at running.

The UK is a sinking ship.

Quote from Intrepid :

To be quite honest Becky you sound like someone who would like the Libertarian Party over any other

I don't know who the Libertarian Party is, but you make it sound like the word Liberal is somehow dirty.

It isn't, I'm proud of bein liberal. I love everyone, even you, without mallice or prejudice. I disagree with you constantly, but there's no hate in disagreement.

I might b slightly prejudice against MPs mind you, but that's the bitter experience of life talking...

Quote from Becky Rose :

In any case wev already firmly established that w don't agree poliically, or indeed on any subject at all, so there's little to be gained by us discussing it. I'm not going to try and convince you of anything, I'll just field any objections you make.

Well there are contradictions in your view. You say you support a concept Europe but are against bureaucracy which is directly proportional to size of Government. Governments have this habit of growing and growing... the Lib-Dems who you show support for are going down that line in terms of policy... aka more Government... that being the EU

As I say you seem to have more Libertarian views.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I don't know who the Libertarian Party is, but you make it sound like the word Liberal is somehow dirty.

It isn't, I'm proud of bein liberal. I love everyone, even you, without mallice or prejudice. I disagree with you constantly, but there's no hate in disagreement.

I might b slightly prejudice against MPs mind you, but that's the bitter experience of life talking...

Libertarian Party aren't like the Liberals google them!

No. I'm on my phone, I don't know what you are talking about don't know why it's rellevent and don't see why refusing to satisfy any gaps in my knowledge allows you to be all superior about it.

I know you hate Europe, we established this not just on the dirt page, but in numerous pages of anoter tread - why are you even botheing to have another conversation with me about sodding inconsiquential Europe? We've major problems that need fixing her first - and with all 3 parties supporting Europe what te he'll difference does it make.

Yes, I would have liked a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, yes mugging here believed Blair+Brown would give us one when they promise it, no I'm not happy about the loss of the referendum but that situation came about BECAUSE we don't have a democracy here, I think we should, and lib dems are giving us the best shot at establishing a proper functional democracy.

If we had a culture of democracy in this country I believe we would have ha a referendum, with 1 vote equalling 1 vote, and then we'd both have been happy... No?

Quote from Becky Rose :

No. I'm on my phone, I don't know what you are talking about don't know why it's rellevent and don't see why refusing to satisfy any gaps in my knowledge allows you to be all superior about it.

I know you hate Europe, we established this not just on the dirt page, but in numerous pages of anoter tread - why are you even botheing to have another conversation with me about sodding inconsiquential Europe? We've major problems that need fixing her first - and with all 3 parties supporting Europe what te he'll difference does it make.

Yes, I would have liked a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, yes mugging here believed Blair+Brown would give us one when they promise it, no I'm not happy about the loss of the referendum but that situation came about BECAUSE we don't have a democracy here, I think we should, and lib dems are giving us the best shot at establishing a proper functional democracy.

If we had a culture of democracy in this country I believe we would have ha a referendum, with 1 vote equalling 1 vote, and then we'd both have been happy... No?

I think you've mis-understood what I am saying. I am suggesting, genuinely, you check out the Libertarian Party. They seem to have a similar basis of views as you do.

So stop getting all defensive

49% of me says, don't vote, why bother, 51% of me fears that if I don't vote, we'll be under tory rule at the end of next week, and IMO, that would be the worse thing that could happen to this country.

So whats left, Labour?, not with GB at the helm, and the possibility of Mandelson becoming PM in the future, Greens?, waste of time, Nuclear power is the future, we don't need this bunch of hempseed chomping hippies in power.

BNP?, hardly a political party, more like a legalised terrorist organisation, removing people, regardless of their contribution to the country on the basis of ethnicity is completely mental, believe me, there are PLENTY of british whites that need kicking out first.

So all that does is leave Lib-Dem, the biggest problem is with Lib-Dem is they always come across as a bunch of limp wristed, PC social workers.

Whatever happens, the next few years are going to be tough, regardless of who "wins"

The worst one can do is to not vote at all. Look what happened to the federal state of Sachsen here some years ago, all the radicals did vote and they ended up with the NPD (Nationals/Neonazis) in the parliament.

Here in Germany some papers prefer the liberals, for bringing the UK nearer to Europe and away from that Americas puppy status. I myself think that can't be a bad thing

Quote from danowat :

49% of me says, don't vote, why bother, 51% of me fears that if I don't vote, we'll be under tory rule at the end of next week, and IMO, that would be the worse thing that could happen to this country.

So whats left, Labour?, not with GB at the helm, and the possibility of Mandelson becoming PM in the future, Greens?, waste of time, Nuclear power is the future, we don't need this bunch of hempseed chomping hippies in power.

BNP?, hardly a political party, more like a legalised terrorist organisation, removing people, regardless of their contribution to the country on the basis of ethnicity is completely mental, believe me, there are PLENTY of british whites that need kicking out first.

So all that does is leave Lib-Dem, the biggest problem is with Lib-Dem is they always come across as a bunch of limp wristed, PC social workers.

Whatever happens, the next few years are going to be tough, regardless of who "wins"

(talking in the context of just the big three )

Out of the three the Tories would be the better option. I think some of you guys are blind to the consequences of what happened if Libs and Labs got in. The markets will flock away from the UK and we'll probably have a sterling crisis and lead to a severe depression.

Certainly life under the Tories will be tough because that's what needs to happen. They have to come and deliver the medicine the country needs but they are under no illusion about this. Granted the front the campaign puts on is all PR but behind that it's mainly conservatives who are realistic about what's coming up unlike the rest who are in la la land. We NEED tough times, the tough times we shoulda had at the start of the crisis instead of artificially propping up the economy which is now put us in a terrible position. The Tories have had to clean up Labour's mess before and then take hits for it... they'll do it again.

On the BNP. Well here's the problem. Under the Lib-Dems the BNP would have a bigger voice in Parliament. A million or so people vote for them and that would lead to about 60 seats with proportional representation. With the Lib-Dems potty views on the Euro and the EU support would only grow for the BNP. That's is a real danger.

Quote from ACCAkut :

Here in Germany some papers prefer the liberals, for bringing the UK nearer to Europe and away from that Americas puppy status. I myself think that can't be a bad thing

Well to be fair the UK has never had to bail out any US state unlike you dudes in Germany are now with Greece (soon to be Spain... then Italy.. and then Portugal..and then the UK )

You can't say voting lib dem is giving power o the right wing and then say 'vote right wing', that's weird logic Intrepid. Torys are not as extreme as BNP, but the difference is doesn't run all that much deeper than the window dressing. Anyway the Torys took us into Europe, and their policies are about helping rich people to further their financial gains in Europe. They've agreed with every single piece of anti-freedom legislation that Labour have brought in. Their only difference to Labour is a slight change is attitude toward taxation and services, and a fundamental undertone of old school values toward minorities. They are the bigotred version of Labour with a bit of extra patting themselves on the back for how much money they've earned.

Quote from Becky Rose :

You can't say voting lib dem is giving power o the right wing and then say 'vote right wing', that's weird logic Intrepid. Torys are not as extreme as BNP, but the difference is doesn't run all that much deeper than the window dressing. Anyway the Torys took us into Europe, and their policies are about helping rich people to further their financial gains in Europe. They've agreed with every single piece of anti-freedom legislation that Labour have brought in. Their only difference to Labour is a slight change is attitude toward taxation and services, and a fundamental undertone of old school values toward minorities. They are the bigotred version of Labour with a bit of extra patting themselves on the back for how much money they've earned.

The BNP right wing? Have you actually read their manifesto? Trade restrictions, mass nationalisation, immigration control etc... that's pretty much all the far-left/socialism end of the political spectrum. All this 'far-right' 'far-left' propaganda is to unfairly put certain organisations in the same frame as others. There's far more to 'politics' than just left and right.

Yes the Tories took us into Europe, I am not saying the Tories are any better! Though it has to be said it's only the Tories who actually actively fundamentally criticise the EU. We must remember that having open trade with Europe (even open immigration/migration) is very different to having them write our laws without possibility of repeal or accountability.

Left/right is a very broad generalisation at the best of times. Historically extreme groups tend o go so far off the end of the scale that they wrap around and meet each other. The communist party has a lot in common with the BNP, yet they despise each other.

BNP went off the end of right wing, like a Conservative party on steroids, so yes I call them eight wing. I have on ocassional glanced at their manifesto but I wouldn't say I've studied it in detail, there would be little point, Griffin is already on record admitting his policies are watered down just to get elected and that he fully intends to reveal and unleash the full wrath of fascism once in power.

i was told by my politics lecturer 30 years ago that politics is like a circle, if you go far enough to the right and far enough to the left they meet and are the same.

i honestly can't make my mind up this time, traditionally anglesey has always supported it's sitting MP but when they step down it usually changes hands and has been liberal, conservative, plaid and labour in the last 40 years, given labours problems it's no guarentee they'll hang on to it so i feel i should make an effort to see juste xactly what each party is standing for this time.

what would have helped is to see someone, anyone really from any party yet despite anglesey having a population less than wrexham and everyone saying that the election is really close and every vote / seat counts, I've not seen a single party worker anywhere. closest i've come is almost hitting the plaid leader's car when he was tryijng to pull out in llangefni

Quote from Intrepid :

The BNP right wing? Have you actually read their manifesto? Trade restrictions, mass nationalisation, immigration control etc... that's pretty much all the far-left/socialism end of the political spectrum. All this 'far-right' 'far-left' propaganda is to unfairly put certain organisations in the same frame as others. There's far more to 'politics' than just left and right.

Yes the Tories took us into Europe, I am not saying the Tories are any better! Though it has to be said it's only the Tories who actually actively fundamentally criticise the EU. We must remember that having open trade with Europe (even open immigration/migration) is very different to having them write our laws without possibility of repeal or accountability.

Socialism and Fascism are very similar in how they operate (closed borders, limit comms, no freedom of speech, everyone is equally poor except the elite who gain from the whole thing, etc), they are just given different names. The only real difference is religion, Socialism out right bans it and Fascists enforce it. Yet it turn both end up being a total corruption of both as the ruler of either regime ends up being posted everywhere and in turn demands worship from the masses.

Labour - Last 13 years demonstrate why I'm not voting for them. Most obvious reasons include Peter Mandelson, erosion of civil liberties etc.

Lib Dems - I wish I could believe the whole "were different" stance, but they really aren't. They want to join further into the Euro (which i'm against), rape our road network (which i'm against), and Clegg generally seems to be a very very untrustworthy guy. Yes, they oppose the DEB, but they started off the whole thing a few years ago. They are only using it as an opportunity to get press as being "different", I doubt they really care.

UKIP - Some policies are good, but most are ill thought out. No candidates fit to lead.

BNP - UKIP, but more so. It's a vote for an idea, not a party - as you've seen from any of their press releases they are not ready for any position of power (not jumping on the "OMG RACIST" bandwagon here)

Greens - All enviro-bullshit with a few policies designed to get public attention. An idealogy, not a party.

That leaves the Conservatives... I'm not keen on all of their policies, but I like theirs the most. And I also think that the ones they have set are realistic enough to be achieved. They may be seen as "the party for the rich" but based on that Labour seem to be the party for those who wont work, and the Lib Dems for those who expect massive public spending to appear in a deficit. They shall be getting my "X" in 3 days time.


My predicition is that the Lib Dems will do very very well though... for all the wrong reasons. Most people don't put that much thought into Politics, will see squeaky Clean Clegg on TV rattling on about being "honest" and vote for him "cause it sounds good, init". Will they overtake the conservatives? Not sure.

All I can say is how can anyone with any sense vote for a party which lied to the public about a war, then later admitted to lying, then turned out to be corrupt, using taxpayers money for its own personal gain.

Regardless of how brilliant or shit either of the other major parties supposedly are, how can anyone vote Labour again?

Because Labour aren't going to tackle the massive benefits payouts and everyone knows it - that does win them some votes (with those who recieve the money...)