Quote from L@gger :

He tried to overtake him but Webber just didnt gave him any place WHY? .

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

HA! lol, a big plus ONE!

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

Wouldn't want to win a WDC, that would suck!

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

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Your acting like team orders are ACTUALLY banned. Did you not hear the McLaren guys have to re-iterate their point that fuel was CRITICAL?? Jenson is spending too much time trying to prove something and not thinking about the bigger picture.

Quote from 5haz :

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You might not have heard so much horse shit, i don't believe horse shit says much, but everytime you open you're mouth you must smell a lot of horse shit. The idiot crowd follows the press and supports whoever wins, just look at man utd fans. I'm hardly a shallow fan so calm your ego down. Fair enough Jenson and Lewis are battling for a drivers championship but there is also the constructors championship to think of.

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

What's so hard to understand in the following ?

Vettel & Webber are on the same team.

Quoting Lewis...

"I had a great battle with him, and was happy to get past because it was quite a surprise," he added. "We're allowed to race out there, but we have to be sensible. At the end of the day we're a team: we both want to win the constructors' title and we both want to win the drivers' title. But we're not stupid. I wouldn't do anything dangerous to touch Jenson - and vice versa - and that's the great thing about racing each other. "

Quote from BenjiMC :

You might not have heard so much horse shit, i don't believe horse shit says much, but everytime you open you're mouth you must smell a lot of horse shit. The idiot crowd follows the press and supports whoever wins, just look at man utd fans. I'm hardly a shallow fan so calm your ego down. Fair enough Jenson and Lewis are battling for a drivers championship but there is also the constructors championship to think of.

You think that Jenson fighting to retain his championship makes him a prick... nuff said really. :doh:

You do realise Jenson is ahead of Lewis in points at the moment don't you?

Hasn't got anything to do with ego, I was just so astounded when I saw what you had typed, I've never heard something so ridiculous. This is racing for christ's sake, not let your buddy win to help your public image.

Another race and another bucket load of controversy, can't we just accept that it was a racing accident and not try to point the finger of blame at someone?

Quote from 5haz :

You think that Jenson fighting to retain his championship makes him a prick... nuff said really. :doh:

You do realise Jenson is ahead of Lewis in points at the moment don't you?

Hasn't got anything to do with ego, I was just so astounded when I saw what you had typed, I've never heard something so ridiculous. This is racing for christ's sake, not let your buddy win to help your public image.

Another race and another bucket load of controversy, can't we just accept that it was a racing accident and not try to point the finger of blame at someone?

Fair enough if it was the end of the season, but it's early days and there were only a few laps left in the race, plus the MESSAGE FROM THE TEAM to hold position. It's nothing to do with public image it's about the team just as much as it is about the drivers, especially with what had happened just a few laps earlier.

I can't believe this "debate" is raging still.

How anybody can find any way at all to reduce Vettel's responsibility for that stupid side-swipe is beyond me.

If he is sane and does not do that then we're not having this discussion!

Of course Webber made it hard for him. When Vettel chooses to go to that side, this is the only way for Webber to stand a chance of keeping the place.

Imagine, if you will, that Webber in his defensive move had put his car where Vettel's is (on the white line), and Vettel had (smartly) kept him there for as long as possible (he's trying to overtake round the outside, so of course he will make it hard for Webber to defend).

With the same "overlap" Webber swerves right and hits Vettel.

Would any of our Webber accusers be placing the blame at Vettel's door? Or would the sideswipe be seen as the blind and stupid move it actually is.

Quote from JPeace :

What was Vettels gesture to the camera's as he got out of the car and taken his helmet off? To me it seemed that it made no sense at all.

it made no sense to him either.

Quote from Kazu2799 :

Anyway it's not like it was the first time webber did an overly defensive move on someone.

LOL, overly defensive move, now I've heard about everything.

When you are leading, you and your teammate is tie on points, you just won two races in a role and with all the momentum in the world to tip the season into your favour, I don't think you should just let someone pass with ease.

he gave Vettel a whole car width, and to me that's enough room. Hamilton possibly catching up? Well they can deal with that after the last few corners.

People complain when driver drive for championships instead of wins, and people complain when about the lack of close racing, now we have some, people complain a bit more.

Quote from JPeace :

What was Vettels gesture to the camera's as he got out of the car and taken his helmet off? To me it seemed that it made no sense at all.

Moving your finger in a circular motion to the side of your head means that someone is crazy (usually the peson you're looking at but in this case Webber). It's a common gesture around here, isn't it in Britain?

Quote from JPeace :

Gonna be honest with you, i didnt know what the f*ck he was doing, so thats why i asked what u guys thought. Put your claws away.

No claws. My question was legitimate because you have different ways from the continental Europe.

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

FTR he did make it extremely hard for Vettel. He couldn't be more aggressive, and from the POV of the team - stupid. He couldn't have pushed him more to the outside without making contact or sending Vettel on the green.

Mmh, gotta disagree.

Leaving space and then moving toward Vettel = aggressive
Choosing defensive line early and holding it = normal defensive maneuvre

Quote from JazzOn :

FTR he did make it extremely hard for Vettel. He couldn't be more aggressive, and from the POV of the team - stupid. He couldn't have pushed him more to the outside without making contact or sending Vettel on the green.

It wasn't like he push Vettel on the grass, I mean they can totally drive side by side till braking zone if Vettel didn't misjudge the overlap and turned into Webber.

That wasn't extremely hard, that was just manditory defending in motor racing. Webber didn't continue to push Vettel to the side, he just simply holding station, and he has every right to do that.

But Pringels, he was overtaken already. If they hadn't made contact, Vettel would have been completely infront of him. Webber had to rethink and prepare a counter attack, if he ever wanted any chance for the win.

It was short-sighted, ignorant, selfish and irresponsable.

Vettel's fault was to trust his teammate... who seemed to be a nice guy, down to earth, responsable and a fair sports man. Especially after i have seen the BBC race build up now, it's even more sad Mark did what he did.

If Vettel just knew who Mark really is. Like i said a few times. I am dissapointed of him. Horner always said they can race but give at least a bit room to breath

@JJ, yes between normal rivals, i agree - great fun to watch and it could have been an epic fight. But Vettel obviously thought he was racing a friend and teammate - he surely learned from it...

Quote from JazzOn :

Webber had to rethink and prepare a counter attack, if he ever wanted any chance for the win.

It was short-sighted, ignorant selfish and irresponsable.

How do you suggest he to do that while Vettel barged to his side even before the move is over. Vettel didn't have full overlap and they weren't even in the braking zone yet, the move just was half way over, no one would expect such erractic change of direction for no obvious reason except Vettel pushing his luck.

if that was short-sighted, ignorant selfish and irresponsable. I don't know what to comment on Vettel's decision........naively optimistic? Self centred? or just dumb?

JJ, i was faster and edited my previous post - yes he trusted Mark and that was the end of his race

Quote from JazzOn :

@JJ, yes between normal rivals, i agree - great fun to watch and it could have been an epic fight. But Vettel obviously thought he was racing a friend and teammate - he surely learned from it...

So a friend and a teammate should have psychic connection and know exactly when Vettel decides to go back on the racing line........right.

Webber could have eventually let him through, and I am sure he will because his fight was 80% over, but the point is he never had the chance to because Vettel crashed into him......for no reason whatsoever than wishful thinking.

Quote from JazzOn :

But Pringels, he was overtaken already.

No. He. Wasn't. Vettel was like half a car length ahead of Webber when he swerved right. He wasn't past Webber, ie. he hadn't overtaken Webber. He was in the process of overtaking him but steered to the right too early and into Webber. As has been said many times before, they were still quite a way removed from the braking zone so really... there was no reason for Vettel to move to the right like he did.

Webber held his line, as was his every right. Vettel steered into him.

Quote from JazzOn :

But Pringels, he was overtaken already.

To me, an overtake is complete when the overtaker is completely in front of the overtakee:
1. If Vettel was as far behind as he was in front, he wouldn't have overlap and would have to yield.
2. Vettel had enough overlap to hold his inside line.
3. Vettel hadn't completed the pass because he wasn't completely ahead of the car in front.

If someone is passing me on a straight, has 3/4 overlap on me and decides to 'force me wide' by turning at me, you bet I'm going to hold my line and let them spin off my front quarter

Quote from JJ72 :

So a friend and a teammate should have psychic connection and know exactly when Vettel decides to go back on the racing line........right.

Webber could have eventually let him through, and I am sure he will because his fight was 80% over, but the point is he never had the chance to because Vettel crashed into him......for no reason whatsoever than wishful thinking.

The chance was there when he was able to "touch" Vettels mirrors. At this point he could have moved, at least to the central line for that matter.

And a psychic connection isn't needed, and it never was, since they have fought many times before. Webber should have known that Vettel is a young gun and look ahead for the next corner. Remember that Hamilton was right on their tale, so there was no time to loose, at all.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

To me, an overtake is complete when the overtaker is completely in front of the overtakee:
1. If Vettel was as far behind as he was in front, he wouldn't have overlap and would have to yield.
2. Vettel had enough overlap to hold his inside line.
3. Vettel hadn't completed the pass because he wasn't completely ahead of the car in front.

If someone is passing me on a straight, has 3/4 overlap on me and decides to 'force me wide' by turning at me, you bet I'm going to hold my line and let them spin off my front quarter

I know that and Vettel surely knows that too. He is in F1 because he worked to get there.

You are right, I am just saying he should not have faith in Webber which cost him his own race.

Can you agree on that?

Quote from JazzOn :

You are right, I am just saying he should not have faith in Webber which cost him his own race.

Can you agree on that?

If you mean he shouldn't trust Webber to just roll over and let him pass easily then yes, I agree. He shouldn't trust any driver to do that, by the way.

Quote from obsolum :

If you mean he shouldn't trust Webber to just roll over and let him pass easily then yes, I agree. He shouldn't trust any driver to do that, by the way.

Lets say the track is maybe 6 cars wide. 2 are on the very left side leaving at least 1 car width room for Webber to move and still make it very difficult for Vettel to make the pass stick, considering hes on the dirty left side going for a left hander corner. And dont forget the bumps, which leaves always a tad of guesswork. Something that Mark did not consider at all. He jus kept straight and unlike those guys at BBC, i did not see Webber attemting to make even an inch room. It was unfair and in respect of the team, unpredictable. At these top speed, with open wheelers, there needs to be some room. Not even 1 front tire would have fit between those two cars.

Quote from JazzOn :

You are right, I am just saying he should not have faith in Webber which cost him his own race.

Can you agree on that?

Well, of course. He should have expected Webber to make room (if one was to believe the alleged radio transmissions), but allowed for the possibility that he might not.

To me this case is similar to Alguersuari driving into Chandhok in Barcelona. Everything was perfectly fine, until they made the wrong assumption and tried to move back to the racing line. I'd go as far as rephrasing this quote: I was inside focusing on the braking point" to "I was inside focusing on the braking point, completely oblivious to any other car near me".