Yes

Time limit changed to the end of event 4 for donations.

2 hours to go, and over £300 of prizes so far

:/ Can't take part on rnd.1... I would like to, but in Sweden, I'll try the otherones

£430 of prizes atm, website is having a fit though, so please stick with us

Suggestion, though probably it is unlikely to be done.

Please think about changing the point system to include everybody who enters. My guess is the popularity is higher than expected, as the point system only allows 96 drivers of 234. That is over 100 drivers competing against one-another (with similar skills) that get ignored in the final scope of things.

I like to compete, as I am pretty sure a lot of people do. I would like to compete during the duration of the league, rather than only during the event. It is quite hard for me (and a hundred or more others) to get within the top 96, which is required to gain points. And points are required for long term competition between people. Sure, I won't compete against the top dogs out there, but there are 100 people behind me that could give me good competition in the rounds to come.

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I have two ideas about this, one works better but has a slight flaw. My first idea is to start with the last competitor, and give them a single point. Then start working your way up, adding a point to each. I was mentioned that the was a desire for a graduated point system, to make others strive to keep going; but how does 3 points from 149 to 152 push you any harder than 1pt? Anyways if this is required/desired then simply add 1 from the last competitor to the 97th. Then add that value to the normal point system.

This way has a flaw though, and a mighty big one - it makes some events more important to win than others. And this is likely unacceptable for the overall championship. Though it would be a way to include anyone who plays.

The second idea is simply to increase the number of competitors. Go from 96 to 250. I would say a minimum of 200, but I would like to see this high enough that most people are competing successfully while maybe a very few suffer from the requirement to make a fixed point system. I do hope this is seriously considered, and since the times are what they are I don't see any reason why changing this early on would be a problem. It isn't like your changing the entire way your doing things, just giving the winners more points, and the rest some points as well.

As it stands I am as good as the ~100 people I beat in the XRG.

I have to be honest here Tim, I agree with you completely. I made the points system based on the facts at hand, namely being last season.

This time, I admit that the numbers have been much more, meaning the present points system in unfair.

Give me a few days to have a think about it and I will try to come up with a new points system

Any thoughts on doing this? I know I'd appreciate it and it might give more initiative for others as well, as you already know. Thanks for the consideration.

See this post http://www.sonicrealmsracing.c ... x.php?topic=2405.msg50083

Should be done in the next few days, as long as we get no big objections.

Round 5 of the Hotlap League has started!

This round is using the FBM & FOX at Westhill Reversed, so we expect this will prove popular. Get your times in you single seaters

Remember, the league is open to everyone, no password required, just join the server!

What's your refund policy?

Why do you ask? If I think a refund is justified then of course I will honour it.

Because the premisses on why I donated, that it would be a fair and square competition, is no longer true. You know what I'm talking about.

You mean the fact that some people were using button clutch, so I banned it. Then they used axis clutch to act like a button clutch via logitech profiler, which is impossible to prove conclusively. So I did the only thing possible to make it fair and allow everyone to use button clutch again...

To be honest, I cannot see how I could have done anything differently. I have never used button clutch or any macros, and never will, but until LFS itself allows us to detect it, then this problem will continue to exist.

My personal opinion is this could be fixed once and for all with the simplest of code changes in LFS. Make autoclucth as quick as button clutch...

Also, the only reason I allowed button clutch back in was to make it fairer than when 95% of people used autoclutch, and a few were using various dubious workarounds to bypass the button clutch detection.

I can't say I have any authority of what is, or is not justified so I am offering this as my own opinion of the situation. I don't think the reason that people were allowed to use the "unfair" button clutch is justified, as you could have used it as well. Personally, I wouldn't use it myself, I have a clutch-axis for a reason. And likely you agree with that - but without complaining the moment / event that things were changed you can't call it justified to wait several events later. In my opinion had you desired the refund when it was changed, then sure that would be a lot more reasonable.

I don't agree that auto-clutch should be as fast as the button macro crap that goes on - especially as it wouldn't give me the "benefit" that it gives.

Okay, I'm done with my opinion which likely doesn't matter. I'm not here to argue back and forth, and it isn't my place to say what is or isn't right in this situation. It is just my opinion.

It's a slap in the face to those of us who refuse to do something we consider cheating, especially when you asked us to give money.

I'm not certain I even know what button clutch means.
If it's simply mapping a button to the clutch, then I do it (a wheel button of course). I use it now and then to regain boost in a turbo, but I can't recall for sure why I originally set it up - maybe cos i have some sets that need a 2nd gear start.
I also use auto-clutch (so when I stop the car the clutch kicks in and I don't stall).

The button also means I don't have to lift my right foot when upchanging in the FBM. (God but I really hate doing that, gives me a sore leg. Nothing else against the FBM, but that's more than enough ) No good for FBM races, as it'll burn out, but lasts OK for hotlaps.

Anyway, recently during the FBM/FOX hotlap event, I got a big surprise when I analysed some FBM hotlaps:
I had started out by upchanging (at least for high gears) by holding the upshift paddle and very briefly hitting the clutch button. I expected this to be at least as fast as lifting off, but I wasn't seeking that extra 0.05 (if you check my times, you'll realise I'm not at the top of the table!) - it was simply the sore-leg thing
The online hotlap analyser on LFSW though quickly showed me that this was actually SLOWER than lifting. Bizarre? I haven't checked carefully yet (cba really) but I suspect this is probably unphysical (based on the torque etc.), but regardless of whether or not it's realistic, it's unambiguously slower to do what I did (multiple tenths per lap I reckon). So I ended up setting my laps by lifting my right foot... (ouch! )

Now, is what I did the same "button clutch" thing being talked about here? Or do you have to turn off auto-clutch to get a benefit? Or indeed, use a macro as some mention now and then?

(Maybe the benefit is there in some cars and absent in others?)

Edit:

Quote from pik_d :

It's a slap in the face to those of us who refuse to do something we consider cheating, especially when you asked us to give money.

Not sure what you mean. Is it a slap in the face that some people are doing it? Or a slap in the face that Jason allowed it? If the latter, then Jason's explanation above surely explains the logic: if you can't detect it, then why have a rule against it? The rule would only penalise the honest people, not the cheats.

To make a benefit from the use of a clutch button, you need to turn off auto-clutch aswell as put the button control rate to its highest setting. Otherwise it will always be slower. Although button clutch with a low-ish button control rate is actually not faster than auto-clutch, atleast that's what seems to be the case in my view.

Quote from Neilser :

Now, is what I did the same "button clutch" thing being talked about here? Or do you have to turn off auto-clutch to get a benefit? Or indeed, use a macro as some mention now and then?

(Maybe the benefit is there in some cars and absent in others?)

It is indeed the macro that is the problem. In logitech profiler (and apparently some other 3rd party programs) you can map the clutch to the same paddle/button as shifting. With the highest button control rate this makes instant shifts, with an extremely short amount of time spent clutching, more time on throttle, better acceleration on straights.

Quote from Neilser :

Edit:

Not sure what you mean. Is it a slap in the face that some people are doing it? Or a slap in the face that Jason allowed it? If the latter, then Jason's explanation above surely explains the logic: if you can't detect it, then why have a rule against it? The rule would only penalise the honest people, not the cheats.

That Jason allowed it. It is detectable. If you watch someone else who is doing it their clutch behaves differently than someone using autoclutch. I believe if they use the macro you see their clutch go up, where if they use auto clutch you wont. You can also look at the persons flags but they aren't that reliable as you can change your settings after you leave the pits.

Removing the rule change it to only penalizing honest people, because anyone who is willing to use the exploit will do so and gain time over people who don't use it now.

Quote from pik_d :

That Jason allowed it. It is detectable. If you watch someone else who is doing it their clutch behaves differently than someone using autoclutch. I believe if they use the macro you see their clutch go up, where if they use auto clutch you wont. You can also look at the persons flags but they aren't that reliable as you can change your settings after you leave the pits.

I do believe there is no solid way of detecting this. You can look at the clutch when someone has an axis clutch and it will go up as well.

Quote :

Removing the rule change it to only penalizing honest people, because anyone who is willing to use the exploit will do so and gain time over people who don't use it now.

I do agree that this "penalized" the honest people, but there was ample time for people to be heard before the ruling was made- and any complaints should have been dealt with then, or soon after instead of a lot closer to the end of the league.

I would like to help find a solution to this button clutch thing once and for all, although I am not sure there is an easy or completely workable solution; which is what I believe forced the rule changing.

Using the exploit your clutches will be identical each time, that's not that hard to see. And I (and others) personally spoke to Jason around the time of it's inclusion. But I don't know what ample time you mean, as I remember it was a pretty quick change of mind.

Things that are detectable in an SPR file with 10ms time resolution are not always detectable in an MPR file with much coarser - maybe 250ms? - resolution. I think this is at the heart of it (but am prepared to be wrong about that ). Thus even though the clutch behaviour may be identical on the client every time as you suggest pik_d, it probably won't look identical to the server or to the other clients.

(Also, I double-checked last night and the clutch pedal does "move" when using auto-clutch.)

If we/anyone can come up with a practical/reliable way to detect it, I'm sure it can be implemented in the future. (Clearly an LFS patch to eliminate the issue would be preferable though!)

If anyone is really convinced it can be reliably detected, I'm happy to have a go at helping to prove/disprove this, e.g. by having someone use it and someone else save an MPR file and then check it frame by frame through a bunch of shifts. However, I have a suspicion that precisely this type of test has already been carried out...

Quote from Neilser :

Things that are detectable in an SPR file with 10ms time resolution are not always detectable in an MPR file with much coarser - maybe 250ms? - resolution. I think this is at the heart of it (but am prepared to be wrong about that ). Thus even though the clutch behaviour may be identical on the client every time as you suggest pik_d, it probably won't look identical to the server or to the other clients.

(Also, I double-checked last night and the clutch pedal does "move" when using auto-clutch.)

Under what circumstances does it move? I did a quick test (attached) and you can only see it when it is constantly engaged. You can't see it when i shift, no matter if I flatshift or shift without load (eg, lifting to shift and save clutch). Compare that to the attached .spr (conducting the same exact procedure) and you see the differences.

What is stopping someone writing a script to put some longer shifts in to defeat this?