Awesome reading about some of the intricacies re the new tire model there, very interesting stuff!
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4434 posts, closed, started )
It's possible to copy the simulation behaviour of your tests and interpolate "real time" behaviour.
It's a quick approach: you get a table of data and not a mathematical formulae.
Personaly, I like math formulaes but if the behaviour is realy complex (like a tire one) it's a good approach to simulate using a Finite Element (FEM) Simulation of the tire in different conditions and then prepare a table of data representing lfs simulation.
I'm sorry if my english is not enoght.
Good luck!!
One question though, related to the heating model and why it wouldn't "fit" on the new physics model: if heat is generated through friction/slip angle & ratio/loading/lateral & longitudinal forces and if it was working before, why wouldn't it work on the new physics model? I'm wondering how the new model should generate heat in order for it to be sufficiently different from the old one/more realistic?
Heat comes also from air compression, tire deformation, conduction and convection in external air.
If you change tire deformation, probably you need also to change your heating balance...
Are there any plans to introduce brake temperature (considering its knock-on effect to tyre temperature) in the new model?
AFAIK, lateral and longitudinal forces do not directly affect the rate of heat generation in a tire. The three primary factors are ambient temperature, carcas flex (from vertical load), and slip, although I think the latter has little effect on the carcas heating, at least at small slip levels or durations.
scawen, ban the spammer's, and people with no respect for a day or two with a nice pm why you did 
that will show them..
/spam post
/hypocrit post
that will show them..
/spam post
/hypocrit post
Beware! Sarcasm inside!
Now that wasn't so hard, was it?
Agreed, very interesting, sounds like complex stuff, almost cutting edge?, could it be the most thorough simulation of tyres yet?.
And to those people who seem to like deliberately "teasing the dog", take a long hard look at yourself, this is no way to act, online or off.
Déjà vu fells like i recognize all of this......
oh yeah duke nukem forever
oh yeah duke nukem forever
Based on anything else out there today, could very well be indeed. One has to wonder if Scawen's model and Kaemmer's model will be out basically around the same time. I think that's going to be the most curious comparison the genre's ever seen, and maybe ever will see in the next 5 to 10 years. Both have been a long time coming, and although iRacing has a tremendous amount of resources available, all the research and the tire model really comes down to one man over there much like it does here. iR simply has tons of people doing other things which is why they can pump content out.
Looking foward to driving two new models from the two most talented tire model developers around, that's for sure
Unlike iRacing, LFS does have sport/street tires modelled aswell, which is a HUGE plus in my book. Doesn't seem like IR is getting them any time soon either, too shame. Driving on nothing but slicks doesn't give a full view on the physics engine. I did enjoy reading this blog post by Kaemmer though.
Actually I think I was/am wasting my time
Quite surprised my comment has actually been read by a dev (THE dev). Didn't expected that to be honest. I'm not very sorry to bother you though... Endless hours already spend to make the users of your game happy.
A very good game which can even be so much better with some small changes, just too bad general development seems to have halted because of tire physics which will not make the big difference in the end for massive online gameplay...
Hopefully there comes a time when you can say to yourself; well it's not perfect but at least it's a lot better. Good luck with the psychics and thanks for sharing some thoughts, it's ssooooo appreciated.
Yeah, definitely.
Code is important, but its a means to an end, for many it seems to be an end in itself, like hifi buffs who spend a fortune on equipment, but never listen to music.
Looking forward to the next patch.
Looking forward to the next patch.
Scawen,
dont's worry about some sarcastic posts, he not have minimal knowledge about the your hard work about a lot of studies and programming/debugging and developing od this very nice LFS product. Programming of Bug-less (SW without bugs) is very hard work for one man (programmer), it need a lot of time and studies and testing about it, and of course many studies about real tyre physics. But some people don't know it, and not appreciate it.
Some people wants a lot of cheap products, what have no value, but for him important is illusion or feeling of quatity, but real qulity and value of many mass produced products on the market is zero (not only SW, but also HW and other), there are many bugs or problems with them about quality or stability.
Then there are other people, who not need quantity of zero value products, but he need ONE product, but with high value. LFS have best tyre physics on the market with current tyre model (Z28), and there is no other comparable tyre physics on the market. But with new tyre model it will better, it will best of best on the market - I hope
And tyre physics is most important thing in simulator. There are so many "simulator called" (game rather) products, with so many updates, every time new update, but basic core of product is not developed completely. I called these as Illusion. Most important for him is content what is still updated, but basic core of all these content is still not developed completly. It is as start build the building at the roof, without basis/foundations. It is building to the air - it is ILLUSION - in my opinion. LFS developers are developing the CORE of product (LFS) (most important thing in simulator is tyre physics) to the higher possible level, and when basis/foundations will complete, then can continue with walls, and then with roof at end.
You, LFS developers, have right and serious way, I support and appreciate it
I'm sure, that here are still many positive tuned pepole who can appreciate your work, accept it as high value for as all. These people know that quality work need a lot of time and studies, and I also know it.
We all, your strong fans, we are still with you. I wish you a lot of energy (don't lose it) for next developing, and it will return back to us, as very nice, high value product LFS.
Have very nice day
EDIT: Sorry for mistakes in english, I have lower ENG language knowledge.
agree
LFS probably has the best "general" tire physics model around right now, but when it comes to a specific tire on a specific vehicle, iRacing is still a tangible degree foward in that area despite having an inferior approach at this time. This is only attributable to the fact that they have access to data that is not readily available which they've made decent use of thus far.
Therefore, saying there is no comparable tire physics on the market is a dodgy thing to say... in terms of accuracy in the context of the simulated vehicle, iRacing is notably ahead for now; even given a substandard approach.
Luckily, their tire physics guru knows that it's a substandard approach and is nigh unto releasing a new model despite possessing the best there is right now. It's already been stated that his physical model matches the appropriate data for the current emperical model: which means that he's crunched enough numbers to make his physical model match his emperical model for measurable, verifiable figures and yet have the benefit of the fact that the physical model will be far less likely to break down in less measured areas of slip. That is exciting news.
Also, in case there was the implication here: as I already said, the folks who are busting their asses (and probably having a blast doing so, so that's a subjective statement) creating content are NOT the same people who are doing physics based updates (save for some minor overlaps when appropriate... gotta use the talent you have right?). So comparing different areas of development, at least in iRacing's case, is bogus. Kaemmer isn't in Europe right now assisting in the most authentic recreation of Spa ever invented; he's still in his cell making the most authentic tire model ever to match it. By Christmas I'd estimate that you'll have the best of both worlds available for a nominal fee and hopefully if a few bucks turns you off, you'll have the 2nd best thing over here with a bunch of fictional but still fun alternatives.
Clear evidence that no news doesn't say anything about actual progress or developer motivation; manifest and latent.
Lest we think LFS was going down from lack of dev work.
Well to be honest i don't know anything.About some things i would assume they may get help.
As far as the cars models and the available tracks i believe the don't.The cars and tracks are pretty much the same -give or take with a few updates- as they were in early s2 days...(As far as modelling speaking)
After recently learning about the modding site i was awed about the astonishing quality and detail some of the cars there had.And i decided to write hear a couple of times about this subject...Its really a pity after seeing the work some of the modders have done NOT to use them to help improve lfs.
I know that the devs are already preoccupied with a ton of other things to improve or add so i cannot see why not using those talented modders.
For example something i have repeated often why not making a contest of improving the existing car models and tracks ? The physics will not be touched by anyone so the game will remain as rock solid and stable as it is nowdays.
So please Scawen,Victor,Eric IF you happen to read this post just check some of the cars.There are even version of the actual cars the lfs cars represend....Simply make a modeling contest and the best models( lets say the actual cars minus the badjes) could be thought of being integrated to the main game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as the cars models and the available tracks i believe the don't.The cars and tracks are pretty much the same -give or take with a few updates- as they were in early s2 days...(As far as modelling speaking)
After recently learning about the modding site i was awed about the astonishing quality and detail some of the cars there had.And i decided to write hear a couple of times about this subject...Its really a pity after seeing the work some of the modders have done NOT to use them to help improve lfs.
I know that the devs are already preoccupied with a ton of other things to improve or add so i cannot see why not using those talented modders.
For example something i have repeated often why not making a contest of improving the existing car models and tracks ? The physics will not be touched by anyone so the game will remain as rock solid and stable as it is nowdays.
So please Scawen,Victor,Eric IF you happen to read this post just check some of the cars.There are even version of the actual cars the lfs cars represend....Simply make a modeling contest and the best models( lets say the actual cars minus the badjes) could be thought of being integrated to the main game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
99.9% of the car models in that site are simply ripped from other games and converted in to LFS, the vast majority of them seem to have been done by kids still in pre-puberty. Hardly a measure of how skilled one is in modelling and texturing a car.
I'm all for releasing modding tools, but that horrible site is NOT to be used as any kind of example what would benefit from it. Definately not.
Yeah, who needs physics in simulator? It's so useless.
I think that what he tries to say is that the physics is not everything, and he got a fairly good point there To say they doesn't cound is just wrong, but there are several other aspects that is no on-date.
To say they doesn't cound is just wrong, but there are several other aspects that is no on-date.Tell that to Eric.
I ment the deformation under loading, but yes, you are right there. However heat in a tire air pressure will get higher as a result of heat, not the other way around, and heat cant come from conduction and convection in extermal air beacuse those are 2 ways of leading heat away from the tire thread.
This thread is closed
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4434 posts, closed, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG