I find it surprising that so many seem to think that a Logitech or M$ wheel provides GOOD force feedback. These are really crudedly developed wheels with huge wheel / motor inertia, very notchy feel and by FAR not enough power to move the wheel quickly enough. Just by looking at how these wheels are put together I would never say they are a realistic addon to the sim!

One of the more scary evolutions in the simracer is that he (or she) somehow started to like FF along the way, not realizing that its a much compromised technology (in current wheels) that more likely disconnects you from the physics than connects you to it.

Recently I have tried a few more FF wheels:
- Momo racing
- red momo thingy
- DFP
- old TM FF wheel

I notice that to be any sort of usable, you can't use a lot of steering lock. LFS with 900 degrees and I'm fighting the damn wheel as it simply doesn't turn quickly enough by itself and has so much inertia. I was really looking forward to using a DFP but after a few days I put it back in the box. With a little over 200 degrees of lock, the other wheels where more usable. Still a 'fight' more than a cooperation, but at least the lack of wheel rotation sort of makes the steering 'faster'..

Of course a total steering range of a little over 200 degrees is certainly not realistic, if you use a more or less realistic front tyres steering lock in the car setup..

I would go as far as to say that you can't judge a sim with todays FF wheels. Its another subjective parameter thrown into the equation as the wheels can't follow what the sim tells them to do and people use loads of different damping / force parameters to mess it up further.. I think there could be a really good FF wheel, and its not the idea that is poor, its the execution you can realize with ~100 euro that is just way sub par.

I use no FF (as you might've guessed by now..) and have zero problems 'feeling' cars (except in ISI as those physics are seriously messed up) and are much more confident and comfortable driving fast without FF gettin in my way.

What worries me is that people seem to like FF ''effects" above realism. Sure I really found the physical forces to be 'cool'. It becomes a bit more of a workout and in some situations it even does the 'right' thing. I think its dangerous to settle for 'cool' when it is SO easy to see that the wheel simply doesn't have the power (amongst other issues) to be 1:1 with what the sim tells it. Until there is a wheel that does, you simply don't get real force feedback, which will disconnect you from the sim, no matter how much you like it..

I have been using a non-FF wheel for years and I think I am not missing anything.

I say that good pedals are more important than FF in a wheel.

I'm using an old guillemot ferrari FFB wheel. And i'm definatly not turning on FFB. Even the smallest bit of steering lag completely ruins the experience. The oscilating on straights for example....uurgh. It doesn't matter how good FFB is programmed like for example in the netkarpro demo which probably has the best FFB effects i have come acros, you feel a lot and everything seems correct, but it lags. As long as FFB lags...i will not use it...no matter how brilliant the rest of the wheel effects and i doubt a truely lagless wheel will come along soon. And i fail to see how turning on FFB with it's lag issues brings me closer to real life cause i have yet to experience a real life car with steering lag...one of the reasons the remark "turning of FFB is close to cheating" is utter nonsense.

Cheers

I don't experience FF lag . I did at first, when I first tried LFS in rwd cars (S1 demo). I switched to FWD and all was well. S2 demo, I tried my hand at RWD again, and again, had lag. Then someone suggested turning the "spring effect strength" up in the logitech drivers. I use 138% and that solved everything for me. (note, that is "spring effect strength", NOT "centering spring")

That is a big part of the problem.. You shouldn't have to 'tweak' FF.. it should be on or off. Spring effects are not FF so if the poor wheel requires some of that to work 'believable' its higly suspicious (sp), and certainly not realistic anymore..

That's not how it works, that setting changes the intensity of the interpretation of certain signals to the wheel. It's not adding anything not already there (unlike the centering spring adjustment).

I have never noticed any lag in the steering due to ffb. Could it just be that you have anologue steer smooth set to something else than 0?

firstly because i have used a mouse in demo-racing (since alpha 0.2). At the time of the S2-Demo release i joined a team, got hooked up even more by the great gameplay and, since about a year, i use one of those easy-to-brake black momos.
I still think thati am more capable of steering more precise by using the mouse than i will ever be able when using the wheel. Undoubtadly though, the wheel is much more fun and has the advantage of way more precise pedal-input in the sence of acceleration and braking.

An other issue is that current FF is, AFAIK, implemented into the direct-input part of Microsoft's DirectX-Toolkit. And thus the wheel you put into your usb-connector won't be much of a difference concerning the LAG some of you seem to experience.

The other thing is that when using the wheel (i drive with in-game around 60-65% ffb, with no added spring-stuff in the driver whatsoever, just the regular ffb set to 100%) and going a straight line fast with the roadcars (e.g. the straight on as-nat-rev) i notice that the overall control in steering is put off somewhat by the fact that the ff-motor inside the wheel doesn't match the input-resolution and thus making me and the car "shiver" a little. When using mouse it "feels" much more like the real thing since the input rsolution is pretty good and won't be affected by any ffb-related drawbacks.

However i haven't tried another wheel, at least if i don't count the short episode of using my now-broken thrustmaster enzo( the one i started wheel-driving with) that didn't last for more than 2 months or so. Funny thing is, i think that i remember using the enzo-wheel was much less noisy ffb-wise. Ok, the steering-input was less precise on that wheel BUT less affected by the ffb-motor since it didn't provide such a stiff amount self-inducted friction.

Overall i think that, no matter how good the wheel is, the ffb is most likely never to be just right in the sense of LAG. But i for one didn't experience any real LAG up to now. If there is something like this that one thinks to "feel" i think it has another background.

I really hope that the G25(with two ffb-motors) in October will at least reduce the friction of the wheel when turning. And i hope that thus the precision felt when driving will be upped compared to the black momo. And please, no cluttering with ffb-effects in the driver. I want REALISM, not sensationalism.

After all, driving a real car around at about 200km/h doesn't give me a noisy steering feel, neither should a racing simulation do. If it did, i probably wouldn't go that fast, anyway since i love living a little longer.

@bal00, @Niels Heusinkveld, @Hyperactive, @willemA:

Jesus, none of you people seem to be reading our posts, apart from the cheating bit. Listen, IRL it is DIFFICULT to hold on to the wheel, because the steering is so stiff and tight. Try Karting and you will know what i mean. I even heard Anthony Davidson talking about how he lost the car in 2002 or 2003 because he was not strong enough to hold the wheel, even in a power steering assisted F1 car! And here some of you people are saying that having FFB on, with a tiny electric motor is too tiring for you!!

Look... I don't care if it is not exactly like RL. The devs have certainly given the best FFB experience availible at the moment (with NO noticable lag in my opinion). Look having any kind of resistance to steering IS miles more realistic, than just cutting it out altogether.

I would have something rather than nothing any day...

Someone also mentioned IRL having G - Force, which makes steering even more difficult. Switching FFB off altogether gives NO resistance and NO forces, regardless of how realistic the forces would be (In LFS' case, a pretty damn good effort). Unless you only have one arm, and have some sort of steering strength disorder, then you really should use FFB.

Otherwise, play NFS or something on a PS2 with a gamepad, designed for weak fingers. Jeez...

Dave, are you reading their posts? I think these guys are all aware that steering wheels in real cars offer resistance. I think there are two reasons that people are choosing not to use FFB. 1) They do not believe that the character of the resistance offered by FFB is realistic enough to add to their experience in a significant way. 2) They can get faster times without FFB because of greater precision in their steering inputs.

Reason 1 is a personal preference thing and reason 2 is a bit mercenary but who are we to argue with someone who can get a faster laptime one way than they can another?

Oh yes I'm well aware of the forces required in a real racecar.. I read some article on indy500 cars and the required steering torque.. That translated to more than 13kg of 'steer right' force (i.e. 6.5 kg per arm) to go straight (due to the stagger / odd aero) and about 10..11kg steering left in the turns..

That is huge and I would only last 2 laps. (if that!) I remember a F1 race where, I think, Cristian Albers's powersteering cut out after a few laps. He stepped out of the car more dead than alive after the race, and thats a trained F1 driver..

Compared, current FF wheels don't come close to simulate non powersteering single seaters. The main problems with current FF wheels are:
- lack of available force
- 40:1 or worse cog ratio. The motors often specced at 3000rpm, with the substantial load of the system probably never reaching more than 2400rpm That would mean 2400/40 = 60rpm = 1 rotation per second which seems to be a bit less in practise with a DFP. This is much too slow. the suspension geometry alone can make a steeringwheel turn close to 4 times per second! That is a bit extreme but its clear that 1 per second is far from reality.
- I think... not sure that when you reduce FF strength you also reduce the speed at which the wheel will turn by itself. (less force, less torque, less wheel acceleration)

I do like to have a workout. But I once used a TSW wheel with exra stiff springs. That was a nice workout without the inertia problems that go with FF.

For my personal preference i do use FFB. But i use low FFB - 100 in CP and between 15% - 30% in game depending on the car. To me this seems the most realistic as i can feel the front wheels while not having resistance to steering. I know that there is the problem with the wheel not turning fast enough but with such low FFB i can turn the wheel fast enough.
This is of course on my opinion as is all the posts. But to me racing with no ffb is futher from real than racing with flawed ffb.

Quote from plehto :

I have never noticed any lag in the steering due to ffb. Could it just be that you have anologue steer smooth set to something else than 0?

its not about the steering wheel lagging behin the one on your desk its about the forces on your wheel lagging behind the physics

I would agree, the current regular crop of wheels are pretty poor to judge FFB with, although I've tried the red momo and it's far superior to the black one in that department. Roll on G25.

I can't drive worth crap with FF turned off, so I have it on all the time. I don't care if you get faster times or don't get tired that easily with FF off, it simply kills the immersion and experience if it's disabled. For me it's a major part that simply belongs to LFS, and if it didn't have FF I'd probably not be playing LFS anymore.

@ Niels Heusinkveld:

I do understand that there are several issues with current wheels, and hopefully the G25 will be a big improvement. But come on, surely no resistance or FFB of any kind is far worse than having a reasonable bit of feedback currently availible? It just seems to me (I maybe wrong) that you are a bit of a perfectionist about some things

Indeed, it's a bit analagous to saying that monitors are not 3D, therefore cannot provide one with correct information and therefore it's a waste of time using a monitor. Besides, light takes longer to reach one's eyes from farther down the track then it does from a screen a few feet away, so it would throw off your timing. :rolleyes:

In fact, why bother using a simulator? It's useless. If you're not driving a real car on real track, then it's not worth doing.

But there are pages and pages of threads talking about how realistic the physics are / aren't, we're all sitting here demading slip angles, traction, etc be 100% accurate, but it is okay that the same levels of expectations are not applied to what quite a few people have chimed in and stated is the most important part of the "immersion" equation here?

Except for certain circumstances (which ideally you want to avoid anyway) the force feedback is not as brutal as it's made out to be.

Obviously it could be better, but it isn't, and noone except a few individuals in the gaming hardware industry that noone has access to can change things.

The whole purpose of force feedback is to convey extra information based on the physics. It does that well enough to create suspension of disbeleif even now, specifically under normal driving conditions.

No the wheel isn't going to rip itself out of your hands and collapse your table with desk-rotating torque, but who really cares? (Although the my MOMO feels like it could when up all the way...). I must be really dense.. or else my brain is so powerful () that it's compensated for this "lag" because I've never conciously taken note of any significant lag between what was happening on screen and what comes through the wheel. Not bad for $100, that's for sure.

Nail on the head.. When it comes to simracing I want the most realistic controls. Its been 8 years since I used 'standard' pedals, and those where Thrustmaster T2s, arguably better than most of todays pedals.. Recently the Dutch Groningen Gang (tm) made some new pedal sets with a 50kg force sensor as brake sensor which is awesome.

I see 'simracing' as a fun hobby but the hardware and software isn't always worthy of the term 'sim'.. Its not easy to get right and even sims like LFS do certain things wrong, but it can be a lot of fun and a good 'nod in the right direction'. Once you tried 'my' pedals, as the other 4 guys who made a set will testify, its in another league.. It really makes you go 'hmmmmmmz' when you reach for your plastic logitech.

The g25 does look more promising, the single transmission probably means 1:15 or 1:20 at most making the wheel potentially quicker and less 'hard' to turn.

BRD, well, they're weird.. one product every 5 years, each product seemingly being 7 years in development, and they aren't bust? Very strange.. Lets hope their wheel is good but at that price not many will be able to get it. VPP is going to make a decent FF wheel.. that only turns 270 degrees so thats not ideal.. Seems that its worth waiting to see how the g25 'handles'.

Quote from jtr99 :

Dave, are you reading their posts? I think these guys are all aware that steering wheels in real cars offer resistance. I think there are two reasons that people are choosing not to use FFB. 1) They do not believe that the character of the resistance offered by FFB is realistic enough to add to their experience in a significant way. 2) They can get faster times without FFB because of greater precision in their steering inputs.

Reason 1 is a personal preference thing and reason 2 is a bit mercenary but who are we to argue with someone who can get a faster laptime one way than they can another?

I don't use it cos it rattles my desk to the point of destruction >

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Nail on the head.. When it comes to simracing I want the most realistic controls. Its been 8 years since I used 'standard' pedals, and those where Thrustmaster T2s, arguably better than most of todays pedals.. Recently the Dutch Groningen Gang (tm) made some new pedal sets with a 50kg force sensor as brake sensor which is awesome.

I see 'simracing' as a fun hobby but the hardware and software isn't always worthy of the term 'sim'.. Its not easy to get right and even sims like LFS do certain things wrong, but it can be a lot of fun and a good 'nod in the right direction'. Once you tried 'my' pedals, as the other 4 guys who made a set will testify, its in another league.. It really makes you go 'hmmmmmmz' when you reach for your plastic logitech.

The g25 does look more promising, the single transmission probably means 1:15 or 1:20 at most making the wheel potentially quicker and less 'hard' to turn.

BRD, well, they're weird.. one product every 5 years, each product seemingly being 7 years in development, and they aren't bust? Very strange.. Lets hope their wheel is good but at that price not many will be able to get it. VPP is going to make a decent FF wheel.. that only turns 270 degrees so thats not ideal.. Seems that its worth waiting to see how the g25 'handles'.

Even with the ECCI locked at 240 rotation, it's a far better over all "feel" to me than any FFB based wheel I've had. Even w/o Optical sensors.

I use FFB all the time!

I can see that the purist will want to spend 20 000 on kit to simulate the experience (full motion frame etc) but I'm happy with my black momo. and if I wanted the real feel I'd buy a car and go real racing.

If I want to simulate the 'arms will fall off' and non power steering trucklike feel, I turn the centreing full up that'll give you the workout you require.

I like the vibration, etc. That's feedback in any way, when I run over the curbs and bumps FFB is just that feedback and feedback of any sort in LFS improves the enjoyment factor, who cares about the fastest times and saving .03 of a second a lap if FFB is off, to those few that winning and WR times are the holy grail, I say wake up and get a life! or get a real racing car.

This is a sim played on a computer, it's for enjoyment! No prize money, no champagne, pictures in the motor magazines, Gold engraved cups for the mantlepiece etc.

Bragging rights mean nothing, if to you they do, then you need help. I don't play online much due to work and time contraints but when I did I was often 4 or 5 secs slower than most per lap but still had great times. Now I have my FFB I should go online more often it's made at least a two second improvement over my non FFB wheel
ShannonN

ff on levels between 15 and 35% feels good to me. enough to know what the cars doing and provide a bit of weight to the wheel, not enough to cause any problems for me. running no ff makes the car feel totally disconnected from the road, to me.

I'm curious, those that do not use FF wheels or have the FF turned off on their Momo/DFP/Wingman/etc, do you have some kind of centering system, be it springs, bungee, or the FF motor? Just wondering.

And I'm in agreement with BBT (Ball Bearing Turbo) about the realism on monitors and such. We are using the FF wheels as technology allows at the moment. It adds the immersion factor. Even if it is not completely as realistic as it should be, it is pretty damn good. So, if you need to continue the arguement about not using FF in sim racing, then you also need to quit using your 2D monitors as BBT has noted.

And, though many have built a cockpit, most are sitting in an office chair. Nope, not good enough. How can that accurately simulate driving in a car? You must discontinue sitting in the office chair and use the Force Dynamics simulator. but then, that doesn't have a dashboard in front of you as well as it uses a 2D monitor too. So, that doesn't work either.

And Niels? I believe you were sitting in an office chair with a wheel mounted to the desk in your RSC vid of the pedals. How is that realistic compared to the "unrealistic" FF arguement?

Ok, I just have one more thing to say, just because I am so impressed with what I've seen of the pedals. I want to say again, great job Niels. I plan sometime to build something similar based on them, except I'll have to use something other than the loadcell due to financial reasons. Unless I can find an old loadcell at work that isn't in use anymore .

I also want to say to everyone, good job on this "discussion". Too many times lately, discussions turn into ugly arguements. Let's keep it to an excellent discussion.

(PS, I'd love to know some of the dimmensions you've used for the pedals. I just happen to have a bunch of scrap square tube sitting under the trees from the porch roof supports. I just need to drag it out and start cutting to be on my way to a nice set of pedals.

Oh, and to Blowtus and the others who say they are using low FF settings. I do too. Except you all say you use 100 in windows and 15-35 in LFS. I use 60 in windows and 25-65 in LFS. This allows me to fine tune lower because LFS is set higher to achieve the same as you guys. Just wanted to point that out if you'd all like to try that.