Quote from Shotglass :

"but mom he started it" is not a valid argument for anyone past preschool level

Never said that, but if you compare how the West treats Islam versus how Islam treats Western religions, there's a definite disparity Shot

so? you ever heard of religious tolerance which has been with the west for at least 500 years now?
you wouldnt dream of suggesting to stone islamic adulteres on the basis that they might do it to christian ones in arabian countries would you?

ever since the elightement what ill jokingly call the west has been founded on the principles of freedom equality and tolerance
if you dont like that feel free to move to a country that isnt but stop trying to bring us back to the dark ages

I hope burning Yellow Pages is not forbidden

You want he 911.

I'm Canadian, we landed all the planes that day, we only Gander

Build a Mosh on my soil

Bunch of ...

Quote from PMD9409 :

Wow, you guys care about this more than Americans.

It's not a big deal here, most don't even care about any of it. The news/media throw it all out of proportion and make it a big deal (like they do with everything).

I Am going to kick a Bible.....

Quote from PMD9409 :

Wow, you guys care about this more than Americans.

I know, right?

Quote from AtomAnt :

You want he 911.

I'm Canadian, we landed all the planes that day, we only Gander

Build a Mosh on my soil

Bunch of ...

I have no idea what you just said.

I wonder if he read this strip then decided to act:

Quote from ATiRAGEPRO :

I have no idea what you just said.

Don't worry, no one does.

Quote from 5haz :

The most galling thing about it all is how uneccessary the whole affair is, from 9/11 right through to this, just religion causing people who would otherwise never think twice about eachother to chant death and preach hate, wage wars and destroy buildings.

It's not religion per se, but the mix of religion with political agendas.

The clerics in Iraq who preached against American troop presence were not doing it because of genuine patriotism for their nation. They preached against American troops because it would make them politically popular, and they used their status as religious figure-heads as a platform for their political agenda. They'd then use their influence to either gain positions in government or influence the government for their own ends.

Funnily enough, the so-called "separation of the church and state" was derived from the Christian preacher and founder of the Protestant movement, Martin Luther, whose Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms would later evolve into the modern concept. It's very strange that some of the more politically-minded Christian groups in the USA now tries to reverse the clock with their political lobbying activities.

Quote from der butz :

2: The musqe would have been build NEAR ground zero. Noone will be dancing around on the ruins with a turban.

Yes it won't be right by Ground Zero. But it will be only 2 blocks away, in a building that was hit by some of the planes undercarriages, in an area that was covered with debris - both structural and human. The whole area should be considered a grave site to the hundreds of people whose bodies were never recovered, having been totally destroyed in the attacks.

The imam who wants to build the mosque, told CNN in an interview:

If we move from that location, the story will be the radicals have taken over the discourse. The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack… Our national security now hinges on how we negotiate this, how we speak about it."

Now that's a thinly veiled 'or else' threat if I ever heard one.

Its not a mosque anyway, its more like a Muslim YMCA.

The priest will probably never see this picture sadly.
Also everyone who thinks this is a big deal this picture also applies to you.

Quote from Mustafur :

Its not a mosque anyway, its more like a Muslim YMCA.

That's where you're wrong - it's a Mosque within a 'community centre'

Quote from mookie427 :

That's where you're wrong - it's a Mosque within a 'community centre'

There are Auditoriums in schools, also. who cares?

That's like saying that because a house has a bathroom, the entire house is one big bathroom.

Quote from ATiRAGEPRO :

There are Auditoriums in schools, also. who cares?

That's like saying that because a house has a bathroom, the entire house is one big bathroom.

It could be to a point. My issue is with the description used by a few of the mainstream media outlets (BBC etc) who don't think twice about not mentioning the mosque, when it is the aspect which has caused the most controversy.

With Obama and other political leaders so quick to condemn the Christian burning a book, where are their condemnations of Islamists burning flags? Both are a symbol of nations or peoples.

Quote from samjh :

Funnily enough, the so-called "separation of the church and state" was derived from the Christian preacher and founder of the Protestant movement, Martin Luther, whose Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms would later evolve into the modern concept. It's very strange that some of the more politically-minded Christian groups in the USA now tries to reverse the clock with their political lobbying activities.

Actually it dates back to the antidisestablishmentarianism movement which began in Europe, America was founded by the extremely religious members of European culture because church and state were interwoven in Europe, the very founding principle of America is that faith is a freedom, and is NOT entwined with the State.

Indeed many of America's early presidents were not Christian and when we look at the only 2 historical presidents anyone outside of America knows about Abe Lincoln wasn't even a Christian and the nearest JFK ever got to getting a Christian into government was by dating a girl with "Christian" for a surname (although he was a practicing Catholic, he had this to say on the seperation of church and state, "There is no doubt in my mind that the pluralism which has developed under our Constitution, providing as it does a framework within which diverse opinions can exist side by side and by their interaction enrich the whole, is the most ideal system yet devised by man.").

Although I disagree with your historical context you do however make an extremely valid point, the integration of Church and State is a NEW concept in America being driven by the fundamentalist right which has gained a lot of ground in recent years, particularly since 9/11 has allowed many more Americans to be radicalised.

9/11 did more than anger America, it has damaged the very fabric of the countries foundation by providing the platform necessary for a religious overview of American culture.

Now in an environment where Intelligent Design is taught alongside Evolution, the book of Genesis being discussed in Science class, the Mormon church being the significant fundraiser for fighting same sex marriage, Christian charities in NY sucking government funding for healthcare of the poor ONLY to white heterosexual Christian people, the list goes on...

America is loosing it's fight to seperate church from state, yet ironically here in Britain where we have an official religion and almost every news story is followed by a comment from a Bishop of some kind (even when the story doesn't involve the church or any other form of paedophilia) a paltry 20% subscribe to it (32% including all Christian denominations) and although 71% believe the possibility that a God may exist, the fact is the Church has very little real influence over government.

However recent concessions will again increase the number of church schools in Britain, something i've personally experienced and think is quite possible the single worst type of institution to have ever been created. They're dogma bootcamps.

Anyway my point is that America was founded on the principle of disestablishmentarianism (seperation of church and state) whilst in Europe the antidesestablishmentarianists won (church and state are combined).

In the modern world the roles appear to have reversed as America is slowly becoming more radicalised by a combination of fear and hate generating campaigns and sensationalised media.

This is creating an interesting counter movement in America as many Americans (who aren't thick) are rejecting this radicalisation and are turning away from the churches.

Is history repeating itself?

tbh Islam is just a bystander. America is being strangled by it's own religion - Islam is just a useful punch bag. Simple folk with opposed views that are easy to rile up and don't have very big guns.

Quote from flymike91 :

I don't see any of these christians blowing themselves up and killing women and children systematically

Catholic attacks on Abortion clinics in America since 1973:

• 1264 Counts of Vandalism
  
• 655 Bioterrorism threats including anthrax
  
• 619 bomb threats
  
• 383 death threats
  
• 173 arsons
  
• 153 counts of assault or battery
  
• 91 attempted bombings
  
• 41 bombings
  
• 3 kidnappings
  
• 9 doctors killed
  

I mention these events only because if I mention the war in the middle east some religious extremist will claim that it isn't a religious war, and I can't be arsed to argue.

Can anyone say diversion theory.

Get all the sheeple arguing over this convenient redneck and that prevents anyone actually thinking or asking awkward questions re 9/11.

It certainly buries any intellegent comment under a convenient thick layer of dros.

I wonder what they're planning for next year's 10th, I think we can be confident that it isn't likely to be answers to the outstanding questions.

I'm not interested in reopening any discussions re 9/11, I just can't help smiling at the way people nearly always do what their told to do by the 'media'.

"Thats good little sheeple, wake up, be outraged till after 9/11, now please go back to sleep, CNN/ Fox/ BBC etc are telling you to.
Nothing to see here."

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Can anyone say diversion theory.

Get all the sheeple arguing over this convenient redneck and that prevents anyone actually thinking or asking awkward questions re 9/11.

It certainly buries any intellegent comment under a convenient thick layer of dros.

I wonder what they're planning for next year's 10th, I think we can be confident that it isn't likely to be answers to the outstanding questions.

I'm not interested in reopening any discussions re 9/11, I just can't help smiling at the way people nearly always do what their told to do by the 'media'.

"Thats good little sheeple, wake up, be outraged till after 9/11, now please go back to sleep, CNN/ Fox/ BBC etc are telling you to.
Nothing to see here."

QFT

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Can anyone say diversion theory.

Get all the sheeple arguing over this convenient redneck and that prevents anyone actually thinking or asking awkward questions re 9/11.

It certainly buries any intellegent comment under a convenient thick layer of dros.

I wonder what they're planning for next year's 10th, I think we can be confident that it isn't likely to be answers to the outstanding questions.

I'm not interested in reopening any discussions re 9/11, I just can't help smiling at the way people nearly always do what their told to do by the 'media'.

"Thats good little sheeple, wake up, be outraged till after 9/11, now please go back to sleep, CNN/ Fox/ BBC etc are telling you to.
Nothing to see here."

You talk as if you want to convert everyone to believe the 'truth', but what would you do if everyone did start believing? You'd have no one to sarcastically tell to carry on believing the lies in a really patronising and uneccessarily hostile manner. Sort your attitude out and maybe more people will listen, although I wonder whether thats what you really want? Essentially most of the time you're preaching to the already converted, and it really grates to be called a stupid sheep even when you're quite aware of how untrustworthy the state and how selective mainstream media reporting is.

Like the moon landings 9/11 would be one hell of a job to fake although I don't doubt for one second our government's capacity to lie, just whether they're good enough to keep it all covered up, after all if our secret service is liable to leaving laptops full of classified information on trains, then what hope have they got in helping cover up the alleged staging of a international terrorism event on such a spectacular scale?

And so I believe there is the outside chance that 9/11 may well not have been a conspiracy, not because a politician or news reader told me so, but because I applied basic common sense and came to my own simple conclusion, am I still a sheep? Or has 'sheep' become just another pejorative term for somebody who thinks differently to you? In a similar way to how the term 'socialist' is used in America.

And that concludes my nightly rant.

I see this boiling down to "the west should be more tolerant of islam because Islam is so intolerant of everyone who isn't Muslim." It would be nice if that was a realistic way of ending the threat of radical islam but I disagree. They would abuse our tolerance and find more underhanded and political ways of crippling western society (atheist/christian/ jew doesn't matter to them, you are the infidel and the enemy). This mosque is an abuse of our tolerance.

We should only give them as much tolerance as we would expect as guests of their countries, which is to say next to none. I don't see it as stooping to their level. Even at our weakest western civilization is so much more powerful than the Middle East. If it weren't for oil, we could forget them entirely and let them play "stone the adulteress" in their little sandbox.

btw give racer x a break. Its not like he lives in a country that matters and things happen, so he has to entertain himself by making up fantastical stories.

ROFL - Calm down

I'm not restarting this discussion as it only ends up being a rant fest with no one listening to anyone else.

For all the US fanatics out there,

Your Govt would never lie to you.
They would never test nuclear weapons on US citizens in America.
They would never create an event to get the US into a war.
They would never have a plan to crash airliners into buildings in America.
They would never lie about WMD's.

Please go back to sleep and, whatever you do, please never actually investigate anything, the tv will tell you exactly what you should believe.

Have a happy life.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Bush Family Business Partner ( No, not the Bin Laden's, though they are ... )

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Your Govt would never lie to you.
They would never test nuclear weapons on US citizens in America.
They would never create an event to get the US into a war.
They would never have a plan to crash airliners into buildings in America.
They would never lie about WMD's.

Please go back to sleep and whatever you do please never actually investigate anything, the tv will tell you exactly what you should believe.

Quote from flymike91 :

I see this boiling down to "the west should be more tolerant of islam because Islam is so intolerant of everyone who isn't Muslim." It would be nice if that was a realistic way of ending the threat of radical islam but I disagree. They would abuse our tolerance and find more underhanded and political ways of crippling western society (atheist/christian/ jew doesn't matter to them, you are the infidel and the enemy).

You're talking about a handful of people here. It's like talking about "The Irish" instead of "The Irish republican paramilitaries", it makes you sound credulous and xenophobic.

The suggestion that governments lie therefor the American government flew a plane into a building to start a war several years later (that did require the government to lie about WMDs to achieve) is a bit ridiculous.

Who did they get to hijack/fly the plane? An ex airman with a history of militant abortion clinic protest?