Quote from Sticky-Micky :

not sure how this all fare sin the rand scheme of things as i have not been racing on the s2 servers long (although i had my licence for ages )
but i now use the pitspotter program, instead of using the DFP d button to view, if the pitspotter bloke tells me its clear, i turn in and go for it, if he does not, then i tend to brake later but harder, then while the driver on the inside flys up at a rate just a little to fast, i turn in hard and power past them on the exit

i love doing this

thanks for letting know about that insim. It looks really good. I used to do that thing but it sometimes turned out bit funny due to blind spots - when I waited for someone to show in mirrors. And, pity I havent done any countercounter overtaking (S1 corners were too short for something like that).

Back to topic - I witnessed the problem with hotlappers (who tried to stay on best line whatever it takes) or fairly noobs who knew racing line but didnt know braking points and lines of inside overtaking (letting me counter overtake them ). Practice with AIs is educational - they just dont see you.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I was there - Piquet braked and ended up on the grass in front of me, and demolished an Agip sign. Piccione braked (well, lifted, but that's almost the same as braking) and had to move to the left a LOT to avoid him.

I couldnt have your point of view, but from mine (couple of replays) it looked like Hamilton took the overtaking line giving room both of them. I wont argue, just will try to get heli replay.
btw: today the same surprise in Barcelona - Dovi was passing from 3rd Loca(1th) and Loca thought "ok, thats it, lets turn", but no, there came deAngelis - which costed Loca 1st place (finished 4th). And I think it was quite resembling surprise.

I find it so annoying when i overtake people fairly then on the next corner they ram me off the road, cucking funts!

Do the rules not depend on the league/race that you are in!

did u see rosberb staying on the outside of monty? thats what happens when u stay on the outside!!
many LFSers do this and them blame me for hitting them...

I've had a spate of people just religiously holding their line like Rosberg did today in the GP. I'm completely along side them into corners like the right hander after the straight at Blackwood and they just won't yield. It's not like I understeer into them or anything....just a textbook overtake and they blame it on me! I also had some idiot the other day who I overtook into the first corner at Blackwood...to be fair I outbraked myself a bit and ran wide and nudged him, but he tried to steer me off the road and when he spun he tried to vote me off saying I'd made him crash when I was accelerating.

I'm far from the cleanest of overtakers and I admit that I'm pretty ambitious when it comes to where I overtake (but then racing in a karting series with some really good drivers in...they expect it) but I certainly never punt people off on purpose. I think people just need to learn to conceed a corner and then take advantage of the overtakers compromised line. It works nearly every time IRL and online Many racers have some phobia to having a good battle over a number of laps and think that once that person is past there is no chance of getting them back.

Quote :

I've had a spate of people just religiously holding their line like Rosberg did today in the GP. I'm completely along side them into corners like the right hander after the straight at Blackwood and they just won't yield

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Hi Mike
Are you on the inside at this point, in what way should they yield, and why? would you concede the corner if the roles were reversed.

Interesting subject

John

As in totally along side. In every race I've ever driven for real, or seen, if a driver is totally alongside....on the inside...then yes the person being overtaken should yield...or at least not take their normal line. There's nothing wrong with carrying on round the outside if you really want to risk running out of road, but just turning in on the person is really silly as it just causes an unecessary accident. If I'm being fairly overtaken up the inside then I'll concede the corner and try the old double back into the next corner

I think the majority of people turning in is down to them not looking. If you check your mirrors and realise that if someone is less than .3s behind you their very likely to try and overtake then it shouldn't happen.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

did u see rosberb staying on the outside of monty? thats what happens when u stay on the outside!!
many LFSers do this and them blame me for hitting them...

Well, Monty was kinda stupid there. You know what he said to a Dutch reporter; "Rosberg was being stupid, because my car was faster".
That's the most funny thing I've heard an F1 driver say. Come one, there's not much space in that corner, Rosberg tried to stay on the outside, and didn't gave up (good mentality imo), but Montoya was stupid enough to put his car there anyway. If his car was really faster he would have catched Rosberg later anyway. Montoya is really a child...

Quote from Darkone55 :

Well, Monty was kinda stupid there. You know what he said to a Dutch reporter; "Rosberg was being stupid, because my car was faster".
That's the most funny thing I've heard an F1 driver say. Come one, there's not much space in that corner, Rosberg tried to stay on the outside, and didn't gave up (good mentality imo), but Montoya was stupid enough to put his car there anyway. If his car was really faster he would have catched Rosberg later anyway. Montoya is really a child...

anyone got a video i could have a look at? as ive heard the "im-faster-so-you-should-jump-into-a-hedge-and-park" argument all to often!

u look at all the replies from the rosberg thing, the real racers say 'yea rosberb was stupid' and the simmers say 'monty was stupid'

everytime in this thread i say that if sum1 is on the outside i normally end up hitting them, i get flamed, but yesterday was a perfect example.

when i raced karts, someone stayed on the outside of me, took me off and wrote his own kart off...
also, i have videos of people not yielding when being overtaken, which allowed TWO people past (i had just been done and the faster guy overtook the guy infront, and i followed him through)

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

u look at all the replies from the rosberg thing, the real racers say 'yea rosberb was stupid' and the simmers say 'monty was stupid'

Monty is just stupid in general anyway. :P

But really, I haven't heard anyone of the racers say it was Rosbergs fault..

Quote from ArosaMike :

I've had a spate of people just religiously holding their line like Rosberg did today in the GP. I'm completely along side them into corners like the right hander after the straight at Blackwood and they just won't yield. It's not like I understeer into them or anything....just a textbook overtake and they blame it on me! I also had some idiot the other day who I overtook into the first corner at Blackwood...to be fair I outbraked myself a bit and ran wide and nudged him, but he tried to steer me off the road and when he spun he tried to vote me off saying I'd made him crash when I was accelerating.
.

i do belive i witnessed most of this TBH
i had somebody put a back wheel on the grass and spin out and blame it on me illepall
i actually hit the brakes hard/locked up so i did not smash into him as he span in front of me, letting the person behind me past, cant help wonder if i should have just kept it floored and just sent him into outerspace

also had a good race when somebody told me i was not aloud to overtake on the corners, even though he had run wide and i was clean up the inside past his door, he then turned into me illepall

i started haveing a crap start on purpose so i could cruise down to T1 and watch what happend, and a few people from supposed "teams" were guilty of barrelling down up the inside and bargeing people out the way.

i was getting stressed so i logegd of and have not played it scince

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

u look at all the replies from the rosberg thing, the real racers say 'yea rosberb was stupid' and the simmers say 'monty was stupid'...

Which real racers are you talking about ?
LFS 'pros' lol, semi amature karting enthusiasts, or highly experienced and respected F1 drivers ?

In the itv highlights programme, there was an interview with Coulthard - they asked him if is was Rosbergs fault, he said (paraphrasing) that it was a difficult call, but that Montoya was being very optimistic with his attempted pass.
IIRC he also implied that it would have been difficult for Rosberg to yeild in that situation without crashing out due to the dreaded 'marbles'.

I guess you know better though - I mean, you're the guy who never shunts other drivers by accident, only on purpose right?

Personally, I thought that it was naive of Rosberg to try to hold his line for reasons of self preservation - let Monty past, he will crash out later anyway .
If what Coulthard said about the marbles is true, most of the blame lies with Montoya.

Coulthard was definitely not the only one who put the blame on Montoya. In German TV they also said that Montoya was way to optimistic in attempting the pass there and going a little too fast into the turn. And the way I witnessed it, Rosberg actually did not even close the door on Montoya but instead stayed further to the outside than he normally would have. But Montoya rumbled over the curb and apparently "hopped" into Rosberg.

Rosberg himself btw said, that it was maybe 15% his fault and 85% Montoya's. The German commentator however didn't agree, he said it was very nice of Rosberg to take part of the blame, but he felt it was 100% Montoya's fault. Of course, one has to take into account that Montoya does not have the best reputation and therefore ppl are likely to blame him.

Quote :

Rosberg actually did not even close the door on Montoya but instead stayed further to the outside than he normally would have. But Montoya rumbled over the curb and apparently "hopped" into Rosberg.

That's the way I saw it as well, MOY's in-car cam showed quite well how he went a bit wide instead of turning in as he went over the curb. I think the accident could have been avoided though by both drivers, once MOY was going over the curb.

Quote from col :

Personally, I thought that it was naive of Rosberg to try to hold his line for reasons of self preservation - let Monty past, he will crash out later anyway .
If what Coulthard said about the marbles is true, most of the blame lies with Montoya.

Why should it be Montoya's fault for the marbles ? illepall

Rosberg should have realised the conditions of the outside line and taken to the grass but he tried to hang on in there and ended up causing a collision. Montoya had the inside line on the brakes, Rosberg obviously saw him as he wasn't going to hit the apex, at this point Montoya had Rosberg but Rosberg didn't yield like he should have and in the end put himself out of the GP.

My stance on overtaking throughout my years in karting is that you are only responsible for the move to the point where you have the line into the corner. After that the guy being passed is responsible for any contact as he has now lost the racing line. I learnt this the hard way when in my first year of cadets I tried to hang in around the outside and had a good run but the person squeezed me until I was on the grass and I had to back out of it, sending me right down the order as I struggled to get over to the inside to defend.

Rosberg has tough competition and if he wants to stay in F1 he needs to stop making silly errors, two in one weekend isn't going to help his cause.

Keiran

lol nice one

Quote from keiran :

Why should it be Montoya's fault for the marbles ? illepall

I dunno, you tell me? seems like an odd question though, and has no relevance to anything I have said

Well that article doesn't help at all. Cars are different to karts (no offense) and IRL you cannot push cars anywhere near as close as karts before it gets dangerous. Remember IRL single seaters really take one touch to end a race, add up how many times you have contact with other cars in the average FOX race and you'll soon get the idea.

That was Rosberg's fault he didn't have to move onto the grass at all, at that point he should have accepted that he had left the door open rather than force Montoya to hit him. As for Montoya he has to at least accept that he had some involvement by going for a move that was so risky so early in the race in the hope that the other driver would use their brain.

Quote from col :

If what Coulthard said about the marbles is true, most of the blame lies with Montoya.

erm ...

Quote from col :

Which real racers are you talking about ?
LFS 'pros' lol, semi amature karting enthusiasts, or highly experienced and respected F1 drivers ?

Normally some of the differing views on what is acceptable can be partly put down to the karting/racing divide, as their are few(er) consequences for contact in karting. On this ocassion though I don't see how this would have effected the situation.

Quote :

IIRC he also implied that it would have been difficult for Rosberg to yeild in that situation without crashing out due to the dreaded 'marbles'.

Easy enough Rosberg could simply have braked harder and turned in later without running onto the marbles. The way I see it anybody who really doesn't want to have contact (that excludes karters/F1 drivers) would have taken to the wide line/grass even if it meant loosing a load of places. The way I see it Rosberg saw Montoya making a daft move and decided he'd rather turn in and take both cars out than simply through it off into the gravel himself.

Quote from ajp71 :

Normally some of the differing views on what is acceptable can be partly put down to the karting/racing divide, as their are few(er) consequences for contact in karting. On this ocassion though I don't see how this would have effected the situation.

Not really sure what you're experience with karting is mate...but in any full race spec kart, if you contact someone it gets very nasty. I've seen people get flipped simply through a wheel touch and also from someone inducing a spin which caused a massive rollover for the guy in front and I've been punted off the track many times by people. Yes...you can get away with the odd nudge, but in generally if you have anything more than a tiny nudge it WILL end up with one or both people in the wall or off the track. A mate of mine who raced a season in British GT and has raced at LeMans twice has said to me that in rolling starts they are literally bumping the person behind, and regular contact is expected you certainly can't do this in karting.

Quote from ArosaMike :

Not really sure what you're experience with karting is mate...

Mainly this forum which has had many threads in the past with karters bullshitting on about how they take risks and are prepared to hosptialise themselves and others (not all by any means).

Quote :

A mate of mine who raced a season in British GT and has raced at LeMans twice has said to me that in rolling starts they are literally bumping the person behind, and regular contact is expected you certainly can't do this in karting.

I also know someone who races in British GT and I have a feeling he'd strongly disagree with that statement.

LOL. Well.....each to their own! He repeatedly told me the he honestly didn't spin Gabriele Tarquini off once

I can't honestly believe a professional karter said they would risk hospitalising themselves or another driver for an position, but yes, karting is fairly aggressive. It doesn't mean you ram the other person. I think this boils down to the whole point Will was trying to make. For some reason people seem to confuse aggressive overtaking with trying to ram someone off the road. IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with forcing someone wide with an agressive maneuver. People are so unwilling to yield though that for some reason they'd rather crash than just let the person get on with things and try and overtake. A slight nudge or tap is not an intentional attempt to make someone crash. If you're rubbing doors through a corner that's just close racing. Will was trying to make the point in the first place that you have to be aggressive to make a move stick. There is no point in fannying around for 3 laps tentitavely putting a wheel infront into a hairpin! It's all about going balls out and doing what I did yesterday at Aston Club Rev and going round the outside of someone under braking

I've attatched said overtaking meneuver for your veiwing pleasure :P