The second interpretation is the correct one imho.
Edit:
Oops! that reads wrong. I mean "Car 12 illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking" is the correct interpretation.
The second interpretation is the correct one imho.
Edit:
Oops! that reads wrong. I mean "Car 12 illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking" is the correct interpretation.
But in this case Maldonado didn't finish, so he failed in his aim for the weekend. He was sitting pretty for some 6th (or 7th) placed points. You cannot control other people's actions, but you can control your own, and at T1, with Hamilton deciding to stick one up the inside, the only course of action available to Pastor that would result in him finishing the race would be to not turn in on Lewis. He took a gamble, turned in, and it ended up with him in the wall
But there was an equal chance that Hamilton's race could have ended from the contact, so if he was driving for points he should have backed out. The argument works both ways, and in the heat of the moment I suspect neither were thinking like that, and rightfully so.
"If you stop defending your position, then you are no longer a racing driver"
"If you stop defending your position, then you are no longer a racing driver"
Maldanado wasn't defending his position, that was half the problem. He left a gaping big whole then cut up Hamilton who exploited the lack of defence. And that lack of defence, lack of awareness, meant Maldanado failed to finish. Had I been his engineer I would have explicitly said that he must defend properly into T1 because Hamilton will have a go. I think only maybe Alonso and a couple of other drivers possess the same threat. (Alonso has stated he expected to crash into vettel trying to take the lead which no one has criticised interestingly)
When the yellow popped up the first thing I told my own man was Hamilton's collided with Maldanado. I knew he was gonna have a pop and that Maldanado would turn in, why didn't Maldanado's engineer? Just don't leave a gap... it's the restart ffs! Maybe Hamilton should have taken that into account too. But Sam Michaels has even come out and said it was a 'racing incident'.
But the issue itself isn't the crash, because in racing these things happen. We all agree there? It's the penalty they awarded to Hamilton as it effectively outlaws a quite normal risk that motor racing drivers are supposed to take. Even the FIA make it clear they wanted drivers to overtake into T1... hence the DRS activation zone prior to the corner.
I think back to the insane penalty on Alonso in Malaysia as well.... it's getting silly.
Martin Brundle
Where's Juzaa? 
Also, footage of the hamilton vs Massa shenanigans in the tunnel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVDLBqdpwg
Also, footage of the hamilton vs Massa shenanigans in the tunnel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVDLBqdpwg
And how to pass and be passed at Loews Hairpin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEq7tJVcFfU
Hmm - spot the difference?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEq7tJVcFfU
Hmm - spot the difference?
A driver accepting that someone is attempting to pass him and that it's too late to defend. Massa's stupid diagonal squeeze was the move of someone that is under serious pressure to do better than he is doing, and did not want to get mugged.
Yeah, Lewis realising he lost the position and leaving Schumi space.
Well I hope for Hamiltons sake that that is just a standard BS Daily Mail headline, because otherwise I can't think of anything that sounds more petulent and childish. Like a kid being told he can't play a bit rough with the other kids at school then getting all pouty and complaining to moma about it.
I highly doubt Hamilton did say it in such terms but who knows.
I'll put my hand up and state openly that I don't like the guy. To me he's just too rash on the track and too arrogant off it. He's forever opening his mouth and saying things that smell like he believes people should just move out of his way and let him win championships because clearly he's the best driver out there. Which doesn't engender any sympathy in me.
I'll give dues where deserved though and having seen the pictures of the Maldanado incident, it does look like quite a bit of inexperience / stupidity on Maldanados part in this case.
But I will restate what I said before, (and echo other comments made in the media), Hamilton needs to do a bit of self reflection regarding him always being called to task on incidents he's involved in. To my mind, good drivers just don't end up in such situations as often as Hamilton does. He has pace, (there's no denying he's about as fast as they come), but he lacks practically any patience, and unfortunately, (to my mind at least), good drivers need both. Fairly or not, he always brings up memories of LFS Demo where fast guys start spamming you "blue flag get out the way" if you don't just let them passed. Like the fact that they are quicker means they have a god given right to just be allowed passed.
I did make a comment about not writing here again. Found something that you might find interesting though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... RgTEk&feature=related
This is what Hamilton had to say:
"I took the corner normally and Felipe came back very aggressively and hit me. I think that was pretty much as deliberate as can be."
This is about the same as what hamilton did with Maldonado. Came too fast from the inside while the other took the corner ''normally''. In both situations the one in outside turned in normally and crashed. If Hamilton had said that ''that was a racing incident'' or something else I might feel that it's just his way to race. Apparently he just feels he has other rules than everyone else.
When you're racing you don't watch for other drivers unless they've earned it by coming side by side with you. You can translate this Senna's message that if you stop fighting for your position you're no racing driver. If you leave room for everyone you're not racing anymore. Overtakes must be earned, not given as a present.
I feel that Hamilton's crashes in Monaco (except Petrov) was caused by Hamilton's poorly estimated situation. With Massa Hamilton saw Webber, knew that Massa had to turn in to keep from hitting and still pushed himself there and cut the corner way too much. With Maldonado when he saw that he couldn't overtake he just pushed forward. I also feel that Hamilton's right in this ''example of mine'' but supposedly you all feel Massa did everything right. Assuming you're not just Hamilton fans and we only have a disagreement about how the rules should be followed. Right?
I suppose I don't need to remind you about Hamilton's ''tricks'' with Petrov in Malaysia 2010 or his crash with Räikkönen in Canada 2008 to prove that he's done many mistakes and yet refused to take blame of most of them.
That video of Hamilton is conclusive proof this lad isn't a dirty arrogant driver. He conceded a position he knew he had lost. His only mistake at Monaco was having faith in other drivers and believing they are as aware as he is. Wouldn't an arrogant selfish driver concede a position like that?
On a more grand point I am glad this race has happened and the penalties have been dished out because it's re-affirmed my belief that F1 racing is not the be all and end all. And thankfully the people I race with are of the same belief.... because if there's one thing i can't stand is people turning-in constantly
So Intrepid:
Are your lips chapped yet from sucking Hamilton's dick every night?
Are your lips chapped yet from sucking Hamilton's dick every night?
You're wrong. The guy infront can't expect a guy whos travelling faster up the inside (of any kind of overlap) to just disappear. If it turned out the guy overtaking outbraked and then takes off the guy on the outside of the corner anyway then he would receive a penalty (and rightly so).
Racing is about damage limitation. You don't turn in on a guy who's up the inside unless you know he's not underneath you by any ammount. The reason you give other cars room when they're overtaking is because you don't want your OWN race to be compromised and Maldonado is a prime example of a failure of this simple rule. Whether Hamilton was right or wrong, Maldonado should of gotten out of it. Or defended the inside properly. You don't defend a corner after or during the apex, you defend it BEFORE. There's no two ways to interpret that.
Overtaking is a responsibility for BOTH drivers not to make contact. Ultimately the car behind has more responsibility because it's easier to get an overtake wrong from behind, rather than from infront but the driver infront being overtaken has to be accountable for. If you're not accounting for the driver being overtaken then why was Schumacher DQ'd in 1997 for turning in on JV?
Turning in on another driver when they've gone for an open gap to me, is just an act of desperation. To be honest, The Hamilton Massa incident is one that you COULD place more blame on Hamilton for as he DID come from a longway back, but the fact Massa turned in a good 25m early negates any blame on Hamilton.
Holding your line and turning in on another driver are two different things Tristan. Once they are up the inside by ANY account, if you turn in on them and they wreck you it's your own fault as you knew (or should know) that they were there.
TL;DR : the general opinion is that Hamilton HAS been wrongly penalised. His comments were extreme, but when you ARE black and your being treated like that, in the heat of the moment any one of us would say a similar comment. For someone to blow out fire like that shows they are passionate and to be honest, I applaud that.
It annoys me that people think you have to be side-by-side for it to be a valid overtake. Well if you turn in on a guy side-by-side to you, you're not gonna wreck your own race ironically, but if you turn into a corner when the guys front quarter is on your rear quarter, you're going to wreck your own race, and BECAUSE of this dynamic, yes, getting along side by ANY ammount is a valid overtake because to get alongside by ANY ammount you can't automatically get wheel to wheel with them, you HAVE to start coming along side them from somewhere.
Not the first time Lewis has hinted/spoken about quitting. 
He should shut up and do it then. Would be good to see new faces in the sport!
he should go do nascar with jpm and raikkonen
That would be the most retarded move ever. If he was to leave F1, I would love to see him in sports cars/endurance racing.
yeah I forgot the smiley on the end of that that made that sarcastic. oops
personally, I think he's got the driving personality for touring cars. unfortunately, this isn't the 90's or we'd see him in BTCC
Well he would hate indy more, indys no blocking rule is simply the most retarded rule in history.
The generally accepted rule is that the overtaker has to be at least halfway alongside by the turn-in point. So whilst yes, turning in on a car that has its front wheel against your rear wheel is only going to end badly for you, there is definitely an element of making a stand and not being bullied out of a position you shouldn't have to concede.
I think it was Brundle that said that Senna wanted to have this reckless image, he wanted you to think that he wouldn't do anything to avoid the crash, and that you would have to be the one to back out of any given situation. This meant that unless you were prepared to be bullied out of the way every time, eventually you would simply have to make a stand, turn in and have the crash.
I'm neither pro nor anti Hamilton, I only want to see good racing in F1, and these two incidents with their subsequent penalties will do that no good at all. Both drivers turned in early, which meant that at the point of collision Hamilton's overlap was far less than it would have been (he's braking already so can't do much about it himself). They both saw him coming. Neither thought he was going too fast or wouldn't make the corner, else they would have let him sail across to the outside barrier. It was simply desperate clinging on to their position at all costs.
There is a fine line between stuffing it up the inside and maintaining control, and a cynical banzai lunge and relying on the car in front as a cornering aide. It gets difficult to distinguish however, when the car in front turns in mid corner to block the move, or turn so early as to run the passing driver off the road. It really is both drivers responsibilities to keep it clean, and while I'm no football (soccer) fan, an analogy can be made to professional fouls and diving on the edge of the box, both of which are poor sportsmanship.
Maldonado defended poorly before the corner, and must have known firstly that Hamilton was there and all over him, and secondly, that turning in would have resulted in himself being pushed wide. I simply don't think he considered this and it was a rookie mistake that neither driver deserved punishment for, and if anything, Pastor should have had a warning.
The really difficult decision for me, is the Hamilton Massa incident. Massa looked like he was going to try to pass Webber, but his angle and speed would have probably resulted in contact with Webber anyhow. Whether or not he saw Hamilton will remain unknown, but he did move across early, and could have quite easily have been trying to run Hamilton into the barrier. Hamilton on the other hand could have possibly backed off, I'm not sure he had anywhere to go if the pass had pulled off, and it was for this reason he got the penalty. Massa was not the innocent party by any means, and if was able to carry on, it would have been interesting to see if he too was penalised for what was a dirty move either way.
I can fully understand Hamilton feeling hard done by, but his outbursts haven't done him any favours. I'm no fan, but unfortunately there are some people that simply hate him no matter what, and I suspect some of those are within the FIA. His Ali G comment I believe was a poor taste joke I suspect, but there may be an element of truth behind it. The situation is made worse by the inconsistent application of penalties. Kamui - another exciting driver - hit Sutil while passing, and while a racing incident too, was not penalised even though it was a very similar incident. Given these types of scenarios, its no wonder Lewis feels singled out.
Good racing will always be controversial with regard to incidents on the track, but I feel that sometimes off track politics are influencing the "fair" application of rulings, and where huge amounts of money are involved, need to be independently arbitrated. Any other business would have to answer for its actions if questioned after all.
Maldonado defended poorly before the corner, and must have known firstly that Hamilton was there and all over him, and secondly, that turning in would have resulted in himself being pushed wide. I simply don't think he considered this and it was a rookie mistake that neither driver deserved punishment for, and if anything, Pastor should have had a warning.
The really difficult decision for me, is the Hamilton Massa incident. Massa looked like he was going to try to pass Webber, but his angle and speed would have probably resulted in contact with Webber anyhow. Whether or not he saw Hamilton will remain unknown, but he did move across early, and could have quite easily have been trying to run Hamilton into the barrier. Hamilton on the other hand could have possibly backed off, I'm not sure he had anywhere to go if the pass had pulled off, and it was for this reason he got the penalty. Massa was not the innocent party by any means, and if was able to carry on, it would have been interesting to see if he too was penalised for what was a dirty move either way.
I can fully understand Hamilton feeling hard done by, but his outbursts haven't done him any favours. I'm no fan, but unfortunately there are some people that simply hate him no matter what, and I suspect some of those are within the FIA. His Ali G comment I believe was a poor taste joke I suspect, but there may be an element of truth behind it. The situation is made worse by the inconsistent application of penalties. Kamui - another exciting driver - hit Sutil while passing, and while a racing incident too, was not penalised even though it was a very similar incident. Given these types of scenarios, its no wonder Lewis feels singled out.
Good racing will always be controversial with regard to incidents on the track, but I feel that sometimes off track politics are influencing the "fair" application of rulings, and where huge amounts of money are involved, need to be independently arbitrated. Any other business would have to answer for its actions if questioned after all.
For me the Massa incident is much more clear cut. He never had a chance at passing Webber, he's way too far back. He elected not to defend on the approach, and it's a squeeze to the inside as soon as he sees Hamilton coming imo. It all happens very slowly. Look at the overlap Hamilton has. More than enough even with the diagonal from Massa.
The only reason he goes on to the kerb is to avoid contact, something which Massa clearly isn't so bothered about.
At least the Maldo one happens quickly enough for him to be given the benefit of the doubt (although I still don't think a penalty is warranted because Maldo is basically responsible for his own accident).
The only reason he goes on to the kerb is to avoid contact, something which Massa clearly isn't so bothered about.
At least the Maldo one happens quickly enough for him to be given the benefit of the doubt (although I still don't think a penalty is warranted because Maldo is basically responsible for his own accident).
Look at the reverse angle in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... s5PRY&feature=related
That tyre wall sticking out would have made it very hard for maldonado to leave room - I doubt you could get two cars through there.
Maldonado should have defended the apex earlier, Hamilton probably shouldn't have tried the pass there.
Same with the massa move. Even at full lock hamilton went too wide after the apex for two cars to fit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVDLBqdpwg
In both cases for hamilton to make the pass, the other guy had to let him get in front before the corner...wasn't going to happen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... s5PRY&feature=related
That tyre wall sticking out would have made it very hard for maldonado to leave room - I doubt you could get two cars through there.
Maldonado should have defended the apex earlier, Hamilton probably shouldn't have tried the pass there.
Same with the massa move. Even at full lock hamilton went too wide after the apex for two cars to fit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVDLBqdpwg
In both cases for hamilton to make the pass, the other guy had to let him get in front before the corner...wasn't going to happen!
Formula 1 Grand Prix De Monaco 2011
(542 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG