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I don't think I'll be doing anything about that. It's probably one of a thousand things I could do but I just want to finish what I'm doing and release the patch, not add more to the list.

Forgive me for being out of touch, but what exactly is the button clutch exploit? Please only reply if you really know exactly what it is, not a vague idea.

Is it...

1) using external software to simulate a clutch action that is faster than humanly possible, while LFS is set to AXIS clutch?

Or...

2) something to do with LFS's button clutch?
I think this is the method.

Quote from NickC :Ok, i'll try to explain. The same as i got it explained i while ago.

Go to LFS. Set clutch to manual clutch. Assign your clutch to a button on your wheel.

Go to profiler --> go to your shifter pedals --> go to select assignment (? english?) and press NEW assignment. Call it whatever you want, i recommend shift down and shift up .

Go to options and tick the box with Pauses. Press ok. Press record and press your buttonclutch and shifterpedal together. Press ok. Make sure the clutch is the first one.

Start LFS and it's done. You are now doing an automatic manual shift :P (wtf).

Doing button clutch slower could avoid the exploit I guess.
There is various things that people use...
1) You start your hotlap with AC enabled, once you start the lap you click it off, and you can use the clutch (which will be on a button) and LFSW still thinks your using AC.
2) A setting in logitech profiler, its somthing very simple, works the same way as button clutch...EDIT: like explained in the post above.
3) An external program which does a very similar job that the logitech profiler.

EDIT: All these methods are faster than AC, its makes it so that there is minimal time on the clutch (also with the external programs i think you can set it so that it only uses a certain % of the clutch? Not fully sure on that
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(Deutschland2007) DELETED by Deutschland2007
Quote from Scawen :I don't think I'll be doing anything about that. It's probably one of a thousand things I could do but I just want to finish what I'm doing and release the patch, not add more to the list.

Forgive me for being out of touch, but what exactly is the button clutch exploit? Please only reply if you really know exactly what it is, not a vague idea.

Is it...

1) using external software to simulate a clutch action that is faster than humanly possible, while LFS is set to AXIS clutch?

Or...

2) something to do with LFS's button clutch?

It's just the fact that LFS's button clutch is way faster than autoclutch. So people use software like the logitech profiler to make it really easy to go faster by button clutching (and then making it faster again by controlling how fast the button clutch 'button/key' is pressed). pdf of a simple way of how it's done linked below.. There are ways to make it even faster ofc

E - got beat by like 20 people.. win.
Attached files
bcs.pdf - 423.9 KB - 907 views
Another external software is xpadder.
(www.xpadder.com)

All these ways makes the car faster than autoclutch and us -that we dont use it- unhappy.
Button clutch can be used even with AC on and without setting the profiler.
For example, for FOX to shift down it takes a slight throttle release normally. However it can be avoided by simply pressing & holding shift down button and then pressing the clutch button fast.
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=30197 around 2:30 time of the replay.
We can't change gear if the engine/roadwheel speeds are too different, and the clutch isn't disengaged above a certain threshold. The clutch-button exploit takes advantage of this on the clutch axis, and allows seamless changes where they simply shouldn't be possible. Some simulated gearbox inertia might prevent this, but hey.
It's not such a big issue to make it priority at the moment, in my opinion.
Better let Scawen get back to work on physics than bother with this now. There would be plenty of time for tuning up once the physics is out, so button clutch can wait until then.
Also agree. Better when the patch will be released with the new physics
Short and Simple
Button clutch exploit (although these are cheats, not exploits):

Two purposes:
a) ease of use
- normally two key presses at same time are needed for gear change (shift) to be successful: upshift/downshift key + clutch key. This is not easy when multiple fast downshifts are necessary (braking). But, by using 3rd party application to create a macro that emulates two presses into a single key... becomes easy. There's absolutely no way of getting rid of this exploit, and detecting it is nearly impossible. Not all is golden for these cheaters as there are some problems with it.

b) faster clutching
- max button rate is 10, right? Wrong.
There's a hack that raises button rate to whatever... and causes no OOS errors. This is potentially detectable.

And apparently exploit that kart-36 mentioned above:
1) You start your hotlap with AC enabled, once you start the lap you click it off, and you can use the clutch (which will be on a button) and LFSW still thinks your using AC.

And that's that.


Now some personal opinions if i may:
This is a pretty big issue that's caused by only a handful of personas and since there is no official statement of what the hell a cheat is community is only barking at the sky and no action can be taken. Hence my reluctance to speak before. My concern is that you try to fix the issue of cheating before you know all the facts because it could lead to some bad decisions.

So i recommend you drop this for now and open a new topic later, when or if you feel ready. Where cheat can be defined, where the terminology could be standardized (is important cause members have been calling the same thing many different names) so that legit stuff don't become a cheat two posts after. Where community could contribute on a solid foundations.
I should also tell you i'm talking about subtle cheats that bring 0.1 sec/1 min, it's up to you to decide if that's worthy of the time. I remember we had Victor's announcement here on the forum to report any cheaters if we see them; that was about those blatant supersonic cheaters. They pretty harmless ever since ban button was invented tho. That 0.1 sec are killing it, not those that we can see.
Quote from Nilex :...

I fully support those sentiments, and also believe this needs revisiting at a later date.
Quote from arco :Who takes hotlapping seriously now anyways, as long as people are allowed to use exploits like button clutch scripts and what not. Looking at most of the wr's set in the last 6 months or so sure is a sad sight. Just thought I'd mention it while we're on the subject on fixing hotlapping stuff...

Have last 6 months worth of WRs had a higher rate of exploits over the last few years? Maybe it has but that stuff has been around forever. If that's not it, what do you mean by "a sad sight"?
Yes, it's been around for a long time. The thing is, since the physics has been the same for years now, the wr's set by using the normal methods have been pushed to the absolute limit. So to beat them without using unfair methods is really really hard. But by exploiting this button clutch thing, you can easily beat most wr's with up to 0.3 seconds. I'm counting at least 20 wr's set just last month, that's not using auto clutch, so I would definitely say it's happening more now than before. I guess respect and fair play is not so important in LFS anymore. That's what's so sad.
Quote from arco :Yes, it's been around for a long time. The thing is, since the physics has been the same for years now, the wr's set by using the normal methods have been pushed to the absolute limit. So to beat them without using unfair methods is really really hard. But by exploiting this button clutch thing, you can easily beat most wr's with up to 0.3 seconds. I'm counting at least 20 wr's set just last month, that's not using auto clutch, so I would definitely say it's happening more now than before. I guess respect and fair play is not so important in LFS anymore. That's what's so sad.

Yeah i agree. When you compare a AC lap with sombody using button clutch, down the straight when they shift its actually visible to see on the LFS data thing. The difference in speed from 1 shift is just incredible.
Just make button clutch as quick as auto clutch. Problem solved.
If you disable autoclutch now, the fact you have button clutch is now correctly reported via insim - previously you could switch between manual/button on track without it being detected. So hopefully lfsw will now be able to detect button clutch, and disallow it if Victor wishes.
Quote from boothy :If you disable autoclutch now, the fact you have button clutch is now correctly reported via insim - previously you could switch between manual/button on track without it being detected. So hopefully lfsw will now be able to detect button clutch, and disallow it if Victor wishes.

That was how I understood it, and why I linked to the subject. Those packets would only be available for the new patches I think, so therefore are not backward compatible perhaps?
Quote from Alien_CZ :Just make button clutch as quick as auto clutch. Problem solved.

No. That doesn't solve the problem at all.
Scawen, look at these two repeat. In 1 a repetition of the automatic clutch, 2 a repetition clutch the button (automatic clutch disengaged). Scawen, you see the difference?
Attached files
[Audi TT]_SO6R_FXR_05963.spr - 43.4 KB - 501 views
[Audi TT]_SO6R_FXR.spr - 60.5 KB - 467 views
Quote from [Audi TT] :Scawen, look at these two repeat. In 1 a repetition of the automatic clutch, 2 a repetition clutch the button (automatic clutch disengaged). Scawen, you see the difference?

I'm sorry, but I've had enough. STOP POSTING. Your every post was utterly useless. Either it was your general lack of knowledge about a variety of subjects you've commented on, or in this case, it was posting a replay of a car with a sequential ignition cut gearbox to demonstrate a clutch "problem". The fact that you don't even see where the issue is with this was the straw that broke my back. Please stop trying to help.
ну ладно, решайте сами.
Now you are posting in Russian, how is that solving the problem?
Quote from Kristi :Now you are posting in Russian, how is that solving the problem?

Showing his posts could get more useless.

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