I'm just out pof words terrible just terrible.
Just shows how much one lunatic can hurt and kill allot of people for his crazy ideals.

While diversity may be growing, the idea that someday all cultures will live together in peace, equality and harmony is demonstrably untrue. It is more likely (and is the current trend) that cultures will separate themselves and live in places where their minority culture becomes the majority in a certain town or district of a city, purposefully living apart from western culture. If they want to live in areas where they are more isolated from white people, they should live in their own countries instead of expecting us to accommodate them both culturally and economically.

DWB cannot accept that complete and total cultural relativism as an ideology is flawed. Some cultures systematically practice things like martyrdom, underage forced marriage, rape, genital mutilation, honor killings, cruelty to animals, women and children, yet he will argue that all of these practices are equal to Western society which practices rule of law and has the most complete and humane justice system yet devised that allows none of those incompatible practices for example in the West, a child's hands will not be severed for theft, whereas this is considered normal in parts of the world. That is just one example.

All people are created equal in Western society's rule of law, yet minority groups are now considered extra equal and get special protections from the law and legislation that non-immigrants don't get. Look at London, which gives everything and then some to immigrants for free, yet is known for high levels of Islamic extremism. No matter how much you want to live peacefully and equally with diverse cultures, they must want it more than you. The fact that many immigrants refuse to even learn the language of the land proves that they have no desire to integrate with the people of their host country.

DWB made a point that people must respect the law of the country they live in, yet turns a blind eye to 12,000,000+ people in America for whom their first act upon entering the country is to break its laws. That shows a lack of respect in my eyes.

Psych, I'm back in

Quote from flymike91 :

While diversity may be growing, the idea that someday all cultures will live together in peace, equality and harmony is demonstrably untrue. It is more likely (and is the current trend) that cultures will separate themselves and live in places where their minority culture becomes the majority in a certain town or district of a city, purposefully living apart from western culture.

That has not been the trend whatsoever over the past few centuries.

Quote :

DWB cannot accept that complete and total cultural relativism as an ideology is flawed. Some cultures systematically practice things like martyrdom, underage forced marriage, rape, genital mutilation, honor killings, cruelty to animals, women and children, yet he will argue that all of these practices are equal to Western society which practices rule of law and has the most complete and humane justice system yet devised that allows none of those incompatible practices for example in the West, a child's hands will not be severed for theft, whereas this is considered normal in parts of the world. That is just one example.

I will do no such thing. What are you talking about?

(Pretty funny leaving cruelty to animals in there like we don't practice that one, though.)

But really how often do you hear minorities performing their cultural practice of such extreme (which might not be entirely accept in their own modernized version of the culture) after they have migrated to a new country?

And again, culture evolves with time, cannibalism was accepted in many tribal culture and even that is almost extinct now. Your theory entirely rejects the idea of culture as a changing entity and that is the biggest flaw.

Second what you is holding against other culture is just what you heard from the media, and you probably think because I am Chinese I eat dogs, shark fins, and sell my kidneys? Try seeing people as individuals, people don't blindly follow their traditions, especially with the exposure to the outside world - that's the merit of multiculturalism.

I think it is very ironic that The forefather of USA was indeed immigrants, they came, they kill everything, claim it is their land and now accuse the later comers for much lesser annoyances?

When you hold such high regard about the law of USA, I will remind you it is just a very glorified system of bullying common people into submission not by the use of force, but by economical and political domination by a selected few.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

That has not been the trend whatsoever over the past few centuries.

It's a trend that happens here.

If you go to certain areas here (north west) you really will struggle to see a white face, the shops are all asian, there's a few mosques and what i've notcied recently lots and lots of injury lawyers!!! Then you go two minutes down the road and you'll struggle not to see a white face. I actually went to a school in the middle of a divide which was interesting to see, the cultures don't mix, at all, they (mostly pakistani, some bangladeshi) Sit together in class, have their own games in P.E, don't mix in the playground and were always in one big group, we never tended to go into the predominantly asian area and they never went into the predominantly white area, that's just the way it is, the cultures are too different and you also get the attitude towards each other that's been passed down generations, i don't think i've ever spoken to anyone about the subject that isn't somewhat racist towards asian communities.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

It's a trend that happens here.

So it's your assertion that England is less heterogenous now than it was a few centuries ago?

Quote from JJ72 :

But really how often do you hear minorities performing their cultural practice of such extreme (which might not be entirely accept in their own modernized version of the culture) after they have migrated to a new country?

Not every day, but when it does happen, it chips away a little more at the trust and acceptance people have for those cultures. Cases of genital mutilation and honor killings in the US make headlines, as do events like the Ft. Hood shooting, underwear bomber etc. It doesn't take the entire immigrant population to undermine the trust of the majority, a few horrible events can make people not want to accept any more.

Quote :

Your theory entirely rejects the idea of culture as a changing entity and that is the biggest flaw.

Those especially egregious acts are for the most part eradicated, you're right. But hatred towards the West is ingrained and especially tenacious.

Quote :

I think it is very ironic that The forefather of USA was indeed immigrants, they came, they kill everything, claim it is their land and now accuse the later comers for much lesser annoyances?

One of the first things those immigrants did was pass several laws to limit future immigration. California tried to pass laws restricting interstate immigration during the Dust Bowl. And believe me, if the Native Americans had known that Europeans would take over the entire continent, they would have slaughtered them when they had the chance. Native Americans were not as peaceful as they are portrayed today, often going into mortal combat between tribes more than once a month over stolen horses, stolen wives, and messages interpreted from nature and psychedelic drugs, taking back scalps each time, but thats another story. The point is that the US has not been as welcoming of immigrants as you want us to be.

Quote :

When you hold such high regard about the law of USA, I will remind you it is just a very glorified system of bullying common people into submission not by the use of force, but by economical and political domination by a selected few.

Are you really from China?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

So it's your assertion that England is less heterogenous now than it was a few centuries ago?

If what your saying is, is it less divided than a few centuries ago then no, it's more.

Quote from flymike91 :

Those especially egregious acts are for the most part eradicated, you're right. But hatred towards the West is ingrained and especially tenacious.

That is because of some extreme advocates from both culture has been fueling the fire instead of trying to get some understanding......which is exactly the mentality you are presenting.

And if you were raised in their community, you would probably act the same, even if people inherits bad practices from the past it does not mean they are in nature anti-western, it takes time for tradition to be reflected, reconnected with contemporary relevance and evolve.

BTW look from their angle, your adultery and prostitution is just as sickening from their angle, try to stand in other people's shoes.

Quote from flymike91 :

ne of the first things those immigrants did was pass several laws to limit future immigration. California tried to pass laws restricting interstate immigration during the Dust Bowl. And believe me, if the Native Americans had known that Europeans would take over the entire continent, they would have slaughtered them when they had the chance. Native Americans were not as peaceful as they are portrayed today, often going into mortal combat between tribes more than once a month over stolen horses, stolen wives, and messages interpreted from nature and psychedelic drugs, taking back scalps each time, but thats another story. The point is that the US has not been as welcoming of immigrants as you want us to be.

Again you are citing petty crimes at a very distance age which has no relevance today. It doesn't change your forefather were the immigrants and has very obvious double standard about what happened, they put down the indigenous culture and substituted with their own, so how are you, their desendent in a position to protect say local culture, if that is your cultural roots? It is hypocritical.[/QUOTE]

Quote from flymike91 :

Are you really from China?

I am from Hong Kong and I can voice my opinion against any regime, even China's, I suppose with your biased media you would assume we are slave to the party and lives under constant oppression.

Shows how much you know about other cultures on a personal level.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

If what your saying is, is it less divided than a few centuries ago then no, it's more.

That's not what I was asking.

Well ask again without the big words i can't be arsed to look up.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Well ask again without the big words i can't be arsed to look up.

That's how Ben likes to confuse his prey.

Some fun reading from the wiki page on Immigration to the US:

Quote :

Benjamin Franklin opposed German immigration, stating that they would not assimilate into the culture. Irish immigration was opposed in the 1850s by the nativist Know Nothing movement, originating in New York in 1843. It was engendered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants. In 1891, a lynch mob stormed a local jail and hanged several Italians following the acquittal of several Sicilian immigrants alleged to be involved in the murder of New Orleans police chief David Hennessy.

Quote :

The ambivalent feeling of Americans toward immigrants is shown by a positive attitude toward groups that have been visible for a century or more, and much more negative attitude toward recent arrivals. For example a 1982 national poll by the Roper Center at the University of Connecticut showed respondents a card listing a number of groups and asked, "Thinking both of what they have contributed to this country and have gotten from this country, for each one tell me whether you think, on balance, they've been a good or a bad thing for this country," which produced the results shown in the table. "By high margins, Americans are telling pollsters it was a very good thing that Poles, Italians, and Jews emigrated to America. Once again, it's the newcomers who are viewed with suspicion. This time, it's the Mexicans, the Filipinos, and the people from the Caribbean who make Americans nervous."

Quote :

Public attitudes about immigration in the U.S. have been heavily influenced by the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks. After the attacks, 52% of Americans believed that immigration was a good thing overall for the U.S., down from 62% the year before, according to a Gallup poll.[49] Half of Americans say tighter controls on immigration would do "a great deal" to enhance U.S. national security, according to a Public Agenda survey.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Well ask again without the big words i can't be arsed to look up.

Which word confused you? Heterogenous?

@JJ
I have Choctaw indian blood in me. My ancestors immigrated over the Bering strait during the last ice age, how far back do you want to go? You're right that events over 100 years ago should have little bearing on life today. White people are the current majority group of North America and Europe for as long as anyone or their great grandfathers have been alive. Groups before us like the Native Americans failed to protect their culture and their sovereign land with disastrous results. If they had been able to, they would have killed every last European to defend themselves from what was to come, and in my eyes that would have been justified. We have a chance now to succeed where they failed, using laws instead of arrows.

I know that Hong Kong is a free capitalist zone within China, created because of a long-lasting treaty with the British Empire which ended in 1997. The people there live considerably better than in the mainland, which is why immigration from the mainland is strictly limited. I would argue that I know a lot more about immigration than you, seeing how Hong Kong is 95% ethnic Chinese. It is nothing like London or New York where there are entire districts where almost no non-immigrants live.

In fact, I think Hong Kong has a very sensible immigration system.

Quote :

Capital investment
Under this category, investors from outside must have net assets of no less than HK$10 million (US$1,300,000) to which he/she is entitled throughout the 2 years before submitting his or her application.

Skilled immigrants
This is a quota-based program that seeks to attract highly-skilled persons to settle in Hong Kong. An applicant does not need to obtain a job offer in advance before entering into Hong Kong on a "skilled immigrants" transfer. Two sets of points system are used to evaluate applicants. These are the Achievement Based Points Test and the General Points Test.

Family class
Permanent residents can sponsor family members to immigrate to Hong Kong. The family member sponsored by the Permanent Resident must be either "their spouse, or an unmarried dependent child under the age of 18, or a parent aged 60 years or above".

If the US or England was so stringent with immigrants, there would be no problems associated with multiculturalism as every immigrant would need to prove that they want to belong in the host country, either with money, skills, or family ties.

Quote from flymike91 :

every immigrant would need to prove that they want to belong in the host country, either with money, skills, or family ties.

http://reason.com/assets/db/07 ... d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

huh. so how's that different than what it is now?

Once again you're ignoring the fact that "white people" in the USA are inherently a multicultural group.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

http://reason.com/assets/db/07 ... d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

huh. so how's that different than what it is now?

God I love flowcharts.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

http://reason.com/assets/db/07 ... d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

huh. so how's that different than what it is now?

The difference is that few people actually go through that process, and thus have not proven themselves as I said before. If US citizenship or the right to work in the US is not worth waiting for, then it must have not been worth that much to them anyway.

uh this is a weird post order but you're right RA in your post below, I'll try to keep things straight. I don't know about Hong Kong, but US immigration in the 21st century is not exactly defined by legal immigrants, as you well know.

Quote from flymike91 :

Rise against
I was talking about illegal immigrants, including those who overstay temporary visas and green cards. No one said the path to US citizenship should be quick or easy, it is a privilege that millions of people want but few are qualified to get. Illegal immigrants can ignore your flow chart.

Ah well, since we were talking about Hong Kong's legal immigration laws, I thought we'd parallel them with the legal immigration laws in the US...

Illegal immigration is another matter entirely, it's important to not mix the two issues.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Once again you're ignoring the fact that "white people" in the USA are inherently a multicultural group.

Therefore they were not bothered with rethinking of problem of multiculturality. In fact they were in a way - first pilgrims fled from religious wars and their wish was to create a country for religious people that wouldnt have religious wars. Thus the strictly liberal state with big attention to all religions - they were christian religions dealing with minor differences in practice not on base values so consent was easier to achieve.

With different cultures from all around world it is very hard and complex. There is a hindu approach - let it all be: ie. peaceful HareKrishnas with Kali murderers and Shiva meditating observers.
Marxist approach is quite similar: lets decompose every group into minority with no majority opressing other (and then we, marxists, will be telling what is good or bad).

In modern, western world there are other ways: in South Africa, Philippines people want to preserve organizational solutions of the west - there is conception of arch of values (greetz to dr J.J.S in Sydney) as constitutional values of given society. But...
I think in Texas nowadays spanish language could be outvoted as main language of the state I dont think Texans would approve that

Quote from wien :

Oh you're allowed. You just look like a drooling idiot, because it's not true.

When you care more about your own people than others coming in you are branded a bigot, racist and every other one in the book and you are attacked for your opinion.

Quote from -NightFly- :

http://itnurk.com/urod/22370

Not only does this video have absolutely 0 relevance to anything we've been talking about, there is little to no context of the events preceding the arrest. My guess is that the officers standing right next to them told them several times nicely to cut it out and they were arrested for disobeying a police officer.

On a lighter note, it would appear they've arrested Racer X

Quote from AndRand :

I dont think Texans would approve that

this and everything else, well said.