I lol'd
I lol'd
Tires easily go to LFS. Overall car physics go to LFS. Sure, iRacing has all those cool little features in the garage, but sadly half of them work correctly. On the oval side we are actually having to run things opposite to the normal just to go fast. I'll take quality over quantity any day.
Agreed, however I think the useful features that actually change the quality of the racing are in LFS, and not iRacing, atleast moreso.
But the features LFS have as far as physics, hosting, league racing, etc are much more useful than any in iRacing. iRacing might have the graphics, but to quote the mighty Scawen "This is a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator."
I think BBT is referring to the fact that low funded simulators (LFS and nkp) are out performing heavily funded simulators like rFactor and iRacing. Either tire data is free, or the tire data the top sims pay for faulty data.
he didnt say that lfs has more features he said that it has a lot less fudged features
with the physics model in lfs you can use tweak to build any number of ridiculous cars (or bikes for that matter) and they all behave more or less like youd expect them to
in iracing even black ford gts cant jump
Well the oval side with the high power stock cars seems to be most broken part of iracing so sure the best cars of lfs can beat the worst cars of iracing.
In my opinion cars like the skippy or solskie are excellent cars with much better "feel of correctness" than any car in lfs. I don't agree that lfs does less but what it does it does better than iracing.
Tbh I think that is just that lfs just looks very nice in motion.
I think they both have strengths and weaknesses. They are different. I wouldn't say iracing is just a screenshot simulator.
I don't think low funded simulations are out performing the more costly ones. Sure each sim still has their own strengths that other sims do not have but overall I don't see there being a real competitor for iracing. Lfs is going nowhere, rf2 isn't out and its quality is still mystery, rfactor has some nice mods but doesn't really drive as well as iracing. Nkpro is very much just wip while not being worked on. Forza and gt, well fun games but that's it.
I think I got that but I disagree. Just the aero model alone is far more advanced than the one in lfs without being fudged at all. Same with tire model. Lfs has issues too. At most those issues cancel each out instead of making lfs any kind of clear winner.
every aero model is utterly fudged these days since were decades away from simulating aero in real time
I don't think you need to simulate everything in real time to get it right or close. Just because we can not run fem, adams, cfd, engine simulation in real time does not mean we couldn't get really close with a lot simpled models.
We can not even simulate springs in real time. Do you think springs are utterly fudged too in all sims?
er what?
springs are perfeclty easy to simulate in real time
it only become an issue hen you get to the super stiff springs you need to simulate car bodies rigs of rods style
Well iracing does support coil binding setups which is effectively fully compressed spring. Are you saying iracing has fudged their "spring model"?
Too bad that it is completely broken. Coil binding is impossible without knowing where the bumpstops and stuff are. iRacing will not release it, and after further investigating with running many different oval setups, I'm starting to think it is terribly fudged.
Front springs:
350-350
350-300
850-850
850-600
850-700
1200-1200
600-2000
Guess what? They all practically run the same... If that is realism, well... I would rather race arcade games.
after seeing that ford gt jump video i wouldnt be surprised to find out that trackmania has better core physics
Well honestly if couple of funny vids will make a sim have "bad core physics" I'll tell you there is not one single decent sim out there.
Was it with the otm too? I thought coil binding setups were working...
All simulation is approximation. Classic physics has unlimited resolution. Computers don't.
So a computer can only ever simulate to a certain decimal point of accuracy percentage ("fudge factor"). Depending on what is being simulated, a couple of decimal points in accuracy and simulation detail can have extreme impacts on the results, and the computing requirements.
That's where the art lies.
theres vids that show stange behaviour that still follows some inherent logic (eg most collision detection mishaps) and then theres vids that get the most basic bits of rigid body physics wrong
you clearly dont know what fudging means
OTM: 350 - 350
BetaTM: 350 - 350 or 400 - 350
NTM: Anything
The "feel" might be there, but that's just fudge fudge fudge. I'm starting to think it might still be a spreadsheet sim. They didn't even create a live tire model. Surely. Or did they really destory something that bad?
They are creating "features" like coil binding with no proof of it. It's just a fudge addition to a limited engine that keeps digging their own grave. I might not be some real engineer, but I've been following oval racing since I was a little kid. Use to race myself. Been sim racing on ovals since 96. I've read enough to see how the cars should react with certain components, but iRacing doesn't always follow those components, and sometimes do the complete opposite.
Oh and I'm currently 2nd in A class points to qualifying into Pro. :banana:
This is a massive cop out though when it comes to the known limits of computation and simple physics(tm).
Shot is right, looking at certain videos, and driving iRacing the last little while and see the bizarre effects of their "advanced tire model" on a handful of cars REALLY shows me that something is missing. Before the NTM I used to attritbute deficiency to the OTM but now that so much is supposedly taken care of; things are anywhere from marginally better to just as bad and their whole presentation of physicality has taken a convoluted turn that I did not anticipate. If anything, iRacing should be MORE predictable now but it is actually less so on the cars with NTM which shows me something is really, REALLY wrong with their entire approach.
Use you brains and think about this: if all their cars were actually processed and calculated in physical terms like LFS's cars are, then the whole business of "releasing the NTM on separate cars" should strike anyone with presence of mind as inherantly dodgy. That GT video, sporadic releases of "physics updates" here and there for certain cars, "tweaks of tires" to certain cars - the whole thing is just blindingly disappointing when you read between the lines.
The thing with LFS is that even though there is lots of shit wrong with it, when you treat individual vehicles similarly you achieve similar results because the fundamental mathematical approach to vehicular dynamics is still correct - or not just correct; it ACTUALLY FECKING EXISTS. As Hyper kind of alluded to iR's approach works with lower speed cars with no downforce. The Solstice is great even with the OTM and the skippy is good. But when you add more power, and more downforce, iRacing shit falls apart faster than a turd with no glutamine.
Don't get me wrong, I actually PREFER iRacing's low speed cars. But after that it's all downhill in a shocking way.
The LFS GTR cars are FAR more believable than the C6R or the FGT because they still feel like cars, not strange galactic organisms that have their own mind.
No it isn't. No existing computer could ever simulate a tire molecule by molecule in real time. Sometimes that lack of perfection doesn't matter. Sometimes it makes all the difference. That's the art, which clearly iRacing isn't adept at, or has got wrong in some way.
Do you think I'm defending the new model? Because I'm not. It's not what I hoped it would be, in fact I may stop playing if it doesn't start engaging me (didn't race this week). The Skippy now behaves like the real thing (which I've driven quite a bit). Things are still wrong. It still doesn't feel like a real car at all. The HPD and GT feel dead. More like hovecrafts with car-like behavior.
I still prefer LFS's and NetKar Pro's physics, and especially their feel.
But trying to dig into a simulation none of us understands is quite useless. We can observe various effects but, as you must know, in the computer world sometimes the issue is at first glance completely unrelated.
Thought I'd posted this before but obviously not - iRacing Breakdance Party
Cool username there. Tags are hilarious, not to talk about the video...
There is quite a lot of bitching about iracing lately but I must say I am still enjoying it a lot.
I drive skipies most of the time and the NTM feels good to me in this car. (apart from the total absence of tire wear).
However, the necesity for having bought all cars to compete in multiclass racing is clearly commercially driven, not technically. If they can prevent people with run out subscriptions to take part in races, there is no doubt they could keep people from racing cars they have on their hard drive but did not pay for. It's just a commercial decision that is defended poorly by the marketing department.
I drive skipies most of the time and the NTM feels good to me in this car. (apart from the total absence of tire wear).
However, the necesity for having bought all cars to compete in multiclass racing is clearly commercially driven, not technically. If they can prevent people with run out subscriptions to take part in races, there is no doubt they could keep people from racing cars they have on their hard drive but did not pay for. It's just a commercial decision that is defended poorly by the marketing department.
thx
Fast Lap at Road America
Posted one hour ago.
Well all I know is I came back home for holidays and paid a 1 month subscription for iRacing. My month of holidays is almost over and I just played iRacing one day and LFS the rest of them.
I feel kinda dissappointed with iRacing, feels like Toyota in F1, they have more money than every one else but they don't spend it properly so they don't win.
I feel kinda dissappointed with iRacing, feels like Toyota in F1, they have more money than every one else but they don't spend it properly so they don't win.
Doesn't always take money to produce a good physics model though. I think we all agree that it is because they are Americans.
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