The 2012 engines are supposed to provide between 550-750 bhp, obviously less for ovals. Will this fix anything?
2011 IZOD IndyCar Series - Season over, RIP Dan Wheldon
(542 posts, started )
We'll have to see I guess. I certainly hope so.
That's a huge range...
EDIT: Oh duh, they change it based on the course..
That was the first part of the incident, the second part was a car trying to drop down to avoid and they spun and then Wheldon hit the gaggle of cars that collided with said car trying to drop down.
Watch the replay, you'll see it, the contact between car X and car Y in the beginning wasn't the main body of the incident it was a secondary spinner that caused most of teh cars to wreck.
With more downforce the car trying to go on the inside wouldn't of spun.
You can't possibly be this dumb.
If a car had ultimate downforce, it wouldn't slide at all. Redbull X1 for example..
The point is, people are saying reducing downforce is the way to go, but if cars already spin with the downforce they have then change track or change power output.
doubt it, dan had been telling radio lemans last week that he expected the new car to be pushing 400 kph / 250 mph at the faster ovals as it's so slippery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... lfOeo&feature=related
A fitting video to watch given the circumstance... RIP
A fitting video to watch given the circumstance... RIP
You are being way too one-dimensional. You can have all the downforce in the world, but cars will stick get together. Maximizing downforce causes the cars to get closer, and create this pack racing. With misjudgment, you have what happened today. Just because you make the downforce as high as F1 cars or higher (good luck building that suspension) doesn't instantly equal safety.
Less power doesn't really help it either. They will still be doing 215mph around the track flat out, and the inevitable touch will cause this day all over again.
There's many other tracks to go to: Iowa, Richmond, Phoenix, Gateway, Indy, Milwaukee, NHMS. Heck, I'd even rather see IRP or Martinsville over the tracks like Michigan, Texas, Atlanta, Charlotte, Las Vegas, Fontana, Kentucky, Chicagoland, and even Pocono.
Sometimes it isn't about fixing the car, it's about fixing where you race at. F1 has got much safer due to where they race. And eventhough we are talking about ovals, it doesn't make much difference. If a driver wants to keep racing those superspeedways, go jump into NASCAR. That is honestly the only place they belong.
This accident is all over news, and with good reason, it's a shocking accident. Several cars airborne and huge devestations.
R.I.P
R.I.P
Well put, I can't argue with this and I don't think anyone else can either.
Wrong on so many levels how the media's replaying it over and over and over. How can the TV networks/sites justify it? Ratings?
IMO, Randy Bernard/Indycar should be held responsible for causing Dan's death. They had a choice to go to another track, they didn't. Instead....they pretty much did the equivalent of putting 43 NASCAR on Daytona unrestricrred and thought everyone'd be safe.
IMO, Randy Bernard/Indycar should be held responsible for causing Dan's death. They had a choice to go to another track, they didn't. Instead....they pretty much did the equivalent of putting 43 NASCAR on Daytona unrestricrred and thought everyone'd be safe.
Well the way I see it, a crash is a crash, it doesn't matter if it's fatal or not. People will watch crashes over and over again, but as soon as somebody dies it's taboo to watch or replay the crash? Odd, some cases I'd rather not the replay be shown but in most cases you don't see the damage on the human being inside the car so it makes no difference to the naked eye.
Sorry, but I don't buy the "blame the organisation whatever happens" mentality, which seem to be the mainstream way of thinking nowadays - and seem to apply to this very situation aswell.
No one forced the drivers to go out there. No one forced Dan to take up that silly 5$M challenge. They are all professional drivers and responsible adults. They knew the risks. The most successful ones are earning a small fortune for doing their job - the passion of their life - and facing those risks. For the record ESPN reported that several drivers wanted to go back and finish the race despite the announcement of Dan's death. Some might take this as a disrespectuous and senseless way to act in such situation. But this also shows the full commitement and the professionalism those people have.
Sure, IndyCar's official made it more dangerous than usual, by picking that track, and making everything to have the biggest possible grid. However, I can't recall of anyone protesting, or expressing real concerns about those decisions(Apart maybe from that original 5$M challenge that was supposed to bring in one timers, some with almost no oval experience. Glad they were forced to abandon it in the end). If the drivers belived it was too dangerous, they had plenty of time to express themselves, and even put pressure on the officials if they thought they went too far. There are many cases of driver strikes in the motorsports history(although of course strikes aren't quite in the American mentality). Like for the Montjuich 1975 F1 race, everyone knew that Las Vegas 2011 would be one of the most dangerous race for quite a while, everyone knew there was a risk for a tragedy there. But unlike Montjuich 1975, no one protested strongly, and by their silence, approved the situation. Therefore, unlike Montjuich 1975, I personally do not think full responsability can be put on the officials' hands. Just a personal opionion though.
The strongest reactions are coming from the fans, as often. I haven't read any driver, owner, or anyone closely involved in the sport critising the officials yet on this Las Vegas disaster. But perhaps it is just in respect of Dan, perhaps this will come later, I don't know. We will see.
A long winter is now coming up, with plenty of time to decide of IndyCar's future on the 1 1/5 mile tracks - or perhaps on oval tracks in general. Plenty of time to put everyone around the table, and decide of what to do, depending of everyone's wills and concerns... But looking back at the past and making up history with "ifs" might not be very constructive.
PS1: Any news on Will, Pippa and JR?
PS2: Kinda agree on BlueFlame's view about replays. But the idea of having the replays shown on mainstream media networks, mostly viewed by people who probably do not know the sport well, and never heard about Dan Wheldon before yesterday, well... Feels a bit awkward for some reason.
No one forced the drivers to go out there. No one forced Dan to take up that silly 5$M challenge. They are all professional drivers and responsible adults. They knew the risks. The most successful ones are earning a small fortune for doing their job - the passion of their life - and facing those risks. For the record ESPN reported that several drivers wanted to go back and finish the race despite the announcement of Dan's death. Some might take this as a disrespectuous and senseless way to act in such situation. But this also shows the full commitement and the professionalism those people have.
Sure, IndyCar's official made it more dangerous than usual, by picking that track, and making everything to have the biggest possible grid. However, I can't recall of anyone protesting, or expressing real concerns about those decisions(Apart maybe from that original 5$M challenge that was supposed to bring in one timers, some with almost no oval experience. Glad they were forced to abandon it in the end). If the drivers belived it was too dangerous, they had plenty of time to express themselves, and even put pressure on the officials if they thought they went too far. There are many cases of driver strikes in the motorsports history(although of course strikes aren't quite in the American mentality). Like for the Montjuich 1975 F1 race, everyone knew that Las Vegas 2011 would be one of the most dangerous race for quite a while, everyone knew there was a risk for a tragedy there. But unlike Montjuich 1975, no one protested strongly, and by their silence, approved the situation. Therefore, unlike Montjuich 1975, I personally do not think full responsability can be put on the officials' hands. Just a personal opionion though.
The strongest reactions are coming from the fans, as often. I haven't read any driver, owner, or anyone closely involved in the sport critising the officials yet on this Las Vegas disaster. But perhaps it is just in respect of Dan, perhaps this will come later, I don't know. We will see.
A long winter is now coming up, with plenty of time to decide of IndyCar's future on the 1 1/5 mile tracks - or perhaps on oval tracks in general. Plenty of time to put everyone around the table, and decide of what to do, depending of everyone's wills and concerns... But looking back at the past and making up history with "ifs" might not be very constructive.
PS1: Any news on Will, Pippa and JR?
PS2: Kinda agree on BlueFlame's view about replays. But the idea of having the replays shown on mainstream media networks, mostly viewed by people who probably do not know the sport well, and never heard about Dan Wheldon before yesterday, well... Feels a bit awkward for some reason.
Excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't IndyCar having a hard time getting oval races in general? I'm sure if Bernard had his way he would have the cars at (or back at) New Hampshire, Phoenix, Milwaukee Mile and smaller ovals like those. But unfortunately (as we've seen from ticket sales and the recent removal of NHS) tracks like those no longer want IndyCar there as the attendance is atrocious.
I think at this point it's either accept the ovals that are still willing to have IndyCar (ironically many of them SuperSpeedways by IndyCar's definition) or just have no ovals at all... I was once adamantly against the removal of ovals from the IndyCar schedule but Wheldon's death forced me to rethink my position.
At the same time it would be a terrible shame to see IndyCar become an all road course series... I use to think having most of the ovals as superspeedway was a small sacrifice to maintain a nice 50/50 schedule but it seems that probably isn't a very realistic ideal to follow...
Either way, I think IndyCar is done when it comes to ovals (not necessarily because they want to avoid them but because they can't really afford to be picky with whatever ovals they can get...)
Just throwing this out there, I'm seeing 'have Indycar use restrictor plates' being thrown around.
No. Indy is not NASCAR. That if anything will make the pack racing worse, not better. If you got 34 cars strung out in clumps of two or three, any wreck will involve less cars than having a huge pack restrictor plate style.
I hate to say it, but it's only a matter of time before it happens again with the current style of racing, the pack NEEDS to be spread out more. Get rid of the spec formula, hopefully the 2012 package will allow for performance differences.
No. Indy is not NASCAR. That if anything will make the pack racing worse, not better. If you got 34 cars strung out in clumps of two or three, any wreck will involve less cars than having a huge pack restrictor plate style.
I hate to say it, but it's only a matter of time before it happens again with the current style of racing, the pack NEEDS to be spread out more. Get rid of the spec formula, hopefully the 2012 package will allow for performance differences.
PMD hit it on the nose when he said they need to be running on different tracks but the tracks that are most optimal for IndyCar safety do not want IndyCar anymore.... NHS was at one point glad to have IndyCar but they've only managed to get 28k spectators (which is a joke btw... NASCAR gets around 98k). Now NHS couldn't stay farther away from IndyCar.
I hear they are building a 1.5m oval in China for 2013... I guess foreign ovals are the only place left... But Eurospeedway can be just as dangerous (Zanardi).
Honestly I'm personally distressed at the fact that IndyCar might become just a road racing series with maybe 1 or 2 ovals but Dan Wheldon's death can't be ignored i guess. Just wish there was more interest in the IndyCar oval races... If IndyCar just started running on shorter, slower, ovals this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place but unfortunately (and strangely) the only ovals that wants IndyCar are the superspeedways....
Ofc, drivers chose, that they will race there, that applies to every race, but it's also up to organisation to choose safe venue, where they will risk their lives for their fame and our entertainment.
In this, Indy is 100 years behind F1. You see so many safety improvements on F1 cars over the years there, which were barely done in Indy. Racing on 8 year old chassis is something they cannot be proud of.
It's hard to compare super safe F1 tracks to ovals though, but as i said, that's the part, where organisation should step in and don't go blindly after the show and bling only.
Any reason why Indy couldn't run places like Martinsville or even some of the Canadian short ovals? I wouldn't mind seeing Indy at a .750 mile oval if they drew the crowds and made it safe.
Indy won't totally abandon ovals, they wouldn't be so nuts as to ditch the 500 would they?
Indy won't totally abandon ovals, they wouldn't be so nuts as to ditch the 500 would they?
In this situation, more downforce would probably have been worse. The cars would have been lower to the ground, when the cars scrape this is what causes this "instability", so less would probably have been the way to go.
I still think Indy needs to limit ride height, downforce, and maybe even horsepower if worst comes to worst. We only see these issues on tracks that are flat out and have a rather flat racing surface.
Onto the catch fence issue, I think they did their job. If they weren't there cars would've flown into the grass and more drivers would have died. Look at Will Power, he quite literally flew.
Doubt it, though they may take precautions. Indy was much safer than Las Vegas due to the longer straight aways and the smaller turns (90 degrees versus 180, which spaces between them). They definately won't abandon tradition. I think the main problem is caused when cars wheels touch eachother and they literally get vaulted into the air. The new car seems to have more protection on the wheels and hopefully that'll fix it.
You can see that the rear fender is guarded, but the front probably will be changed. Even drivers may need to be further down, maybe have a "u" that they can look down the front of the car that is bent into the nose like some of the f1 cars do. This way the helmet is out of the way of debris.
Well, I'm sure when we talk about abandoning ovals weean everything except Indy.
No I'm pretty sure (short of the 500 that is) IndyCar Oval racing is already doomed. I mean IndyCar was already having a hard time getting ovals to agree to sign them on because the oval promoters just lost too much money hosting indycar races. Thats why the milkwaukee mile and NHS have pulled out after this season...
Again, the only ovals interested in them are places like Texas, Fontana, and Las Vegas... and we've already seen what happens at superspeedways. IndyCar either can keep the current schedule but be blamed for ignoring Wheldon's death... or they will become an all road course series... which would suck cause we already have enough road course open wheel series everywhere... But that's where they are heading unfortunately
Again, the only ovals interested in them are places like Texas, Fontana, and Las Vegas... and we've already seen what happens at superspeedways. IndyCar either can keep the current schedule but be blamed for ignoring Wheldon's death... or they will become an all road course series... which would suck cause we already have enough road course open wheel series everywhere... But that's where they are heading unfortunately
There are some tracks that are fine for Indy racing. Vegas is definately not one of them. IMO if they wanted to try a new(er) venue, shouldve stuck with Motegi oval and done Las Vegas road course.
I thought it was Motegi that ended the deal not IndyCar? I mean IndyCar can't be picky with their ovals cause they are barely getting any buyers as it is already. Bernard has already said that his perfect schedule would see IndyCar at Phoenix, New Hampshire, and Milwaukee Mile so I highly doubt the officials really wanted an all superspeedway line up for their schedule.
Sorry but you just have to face the facts that no oval wants indycar anymore save for maybe a few superspeedways and one or two foreign ovals (they are possibly building one in China for 2013)
They'll never leave Indy. They'd have to change the series name 
Really, I'd like to see Indy cars forget about ovals other than flat tracks or tracks longer than a mile. (Indy is basically flat, not entirely of course with 12 degrees, but relatively).
When you look at the saftey of the cars and the fact that they will pack race on these ovals like this. It's just not possable to expect them to race on a medium to high banked track without bumps.
Ovals are for bumping and grinding (to an extent due to the close quarters racing), and I don't think that open wheel cars are really suitable for these big, aerodynamic races like Las Vegas or Texas (Open wheel cars on a track like Charlotte? I never thought of it, but are they crazy? Look at the incident where the catch fence was utterly destroyed on the back stright at Texas).
Naw Hampshire, Richmond (Bristol! :razz
would be fun and safe tracks to see them on. Not Texas or Vegas. (Even the Kentucky race was dangerous, but the bumps there I think make it a good bit safer )
Really, I'd like to see Indy cars forget about ovals other than flat tracks or tracks longer than a mile. (Indy is basically flat, not entirely of course with 12 degrees, but relatively).
When you look at the saftey of the cars and the fact that they will pack race on these ovals like this. It's just not possable to expect them to race on a medium to high banked track without bumps.
Ovals are for bumping and grinding (to an extent due to the close quarters racing), and I don't think that open wheel cars are really suitable for these big, aerodynamic races like Las Vegas or Texas (Open wheel cars on a track like Charlotte? I never thought of it, but are they crazy? Look at the incident where the catch fence was utterly destroyed on the back stright at Texas).
Naw Hampshire, Richmond (Bristol! :razz
would be fun and safe tracks to see them on. Not Texas or Vegas. (Even the Kentucky race was dangerous, but the bumps there I think make it a good bit safer )
2011 IZOD IndyCar Series - Season over, RIP Dan Wheldon
(542 posts, started )
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