Hey,

I just noticed in the UF1 I can do 43 Mph before the shift indicator comes on, I use a flotch setup and its quick. This seems a bit unrealistic to me. In my peugeot 306 diesel I can get to about 18 Mph before I have to change to second.

Also it seems to me that in all of the cars (except the race ones) you can got too quick in first gear. What is going on here?

Does anyone agree with me?

your car is designed for optimum in top gear of about ~80 Mph, the racing setup for the mini is not!

Quote from dave81983 :

Hey,

I just noticed in the UF1 I can do 43 Mph before the shift indicator comes on, I use a flotch setup and its quick. This seems a bit unrealistic to me. In my peugeot 306 diesel I can get to about 18 Mph before I have to change to second.

Also it seems to me that in all of the cars (except the race ones) you can got too quick in first gear. What is going on here?

Does anyone agree with me?

43mph is nothing in first gear for the uf1 i have had upto 70/80 mph in first gear with the uf1 when i was messing about on the oval the other day trying to get wr but got bored after 30sec

It's the final drive setting, the UF1 in the default setups, and indeed most race setups, will have a much bigger spur gear to drive the wheels than a street car.

you can make it go longer i think (never tried) but the longer the gear is the slower the car will speed up (uf1). get what i mean? You can make it longer, but since the car is not very powerfull, after a point, a longer gear will bring nothing good ( i was gonna use some other word, but forgot )

Well it's sensible to start in second in most cars that pull away in it easilly as it saves a gear change and increases economy.

In a Mini it is possivle to pull away in third gear, although very slowly which would be geared to at least 43mph on full chat, why you'd want to is beyond me though and I'm sure if you really wanted to you could pull away in fourth.

In the UF1 you've got a standard(ish) A series engine with what is effectively a full race sequential 4 speed 'box (due to LFS's lack of gearbox simulation) so using close ratios to keep the engine in the power band is best.

Slightly OT - when in a car with a broad power band it's often best to let the engine pull than constantly change gear. A couple of examples are:

1. The Peugeot 307 WRC car with a 4 speed 'box
2. The Ultima GTR only used the first two gears to do it's record breaking 0-100-0 run, and Autocar went on about the Bugatti
http://www.ultimacars.com/video/UltimaRecord2006.wmv

Quote from dave81983 :

Hey,

In my peugeot 306 diesel I can get to about 18 Mph before I have to change to second.

Remember that you can't compare a petrol engine with a diesel engine. The diesel engines has a much shorter rev range than the petrol engines.

ajp: There are no sequential gearboxes in LFS. All gearboxes in LFS are normal H-gate gearboxes.

Vain

So are we saying that 43 MPh in 1st hear as the optimum for racing (it must be becaues flotches set uses it) is realistic or is not?

Quote from _rod_ :

...after a point, a longer gear will bring nothing good ( i was gonna use some other word, but forgot )

Maybe you were looking for the phrase "diminishing returns"? But "nothing good" works fine, and your English is excellent already.

Quote from Vain :

ajp: There are no sequential gearboxes in LFS. All gearboxes in LFS are normal H-gate gearboxes.

To be precise there are no gearboxes in LFS as far as I can gather from what Scawen said the gearbox simulation magically changes the car to the selected gear via neutral (so like an H gate in that sense) with absolutley no consequences, IRL a car would not survive more than a couple of laps changing down gear on full throttle to slow it down.

Quote :

So are we saying that 43 MPh in 1st hear as the optimum for racing (it must be becaues flotches set uses it) is realistic or is not?

Depends on the track, on a track with no slow corners it maybe

Quote from dave81983 :

So are we saying that 43 MPh in 1st hear as the optimum for racing (it must be becaues flotches set uses it) is realistic or is not?

I think road cars have a low first gear because you often need to drive slowly, like in traffic and in the supermarket car park. Or you may need to climb a steep slope (to park somewhere or whatever) and when you are on a slope it's much easier to start moving in a low gear.

With racing cars though, you don't need to do a hill start or drive slowly (except to drive out of the pits or whatever). So you can benefit from having a higher first gear, and it will be useful in a hairpin bend, when you may be down to 40 mph or so (but never anything as low as 10 mph). Having a higher first gear allows all the gears to be closer together and that's good for racing because with more gears available, you can choose one that's more optimal for whatever corner.

So yes I'm sure it's realistic if you have the ability to change your gear ratios, to have a higher first gear in a racing setup. But it's not realistic for an unmodified road car to be like that.

BTW My bike goes up to 60 mph in first gear. But sports bikes have something like a real racing gearbox (sequential) and the gears MUST be close together because they clunk straight in from one gear to the next (no going in via neutral and a synchromesh to synchronise the gears, just CRUNCH minimised by throttle control).

Quote from ajp71 :

Well it's sensible to start in second in most cars that pull away in it easilly as it saves a gear change and increases economy.

I've never heard of anyone in the habit of pulling away in second gear, unless they are aiming down a hill.

Anyone who likes to pull away in second, must not mind changing their clutch - which is surprising because that's a big job.

I doubt it's good for economy because slipping the clutch is not economical, a lot of the energy goes to heating the clutch due to friction, rather than motion of the car. Economical is to minimise clutch slip, pull away gently in first gear then an early change to second before the revs are high, at a point where the engine will pull reasonably in second gear with no clutch slipping.

It depends on the car but most modern cars have more gears than they actually need, most cars with a 5 speed 'box would used to have a 4 speed 'box, likewise for everyday cars with a six speed 'box. Pulling away in second is unlikely to add to wear in a Ford Galaxy with a 2.0 Zetec because the engine has plenty of torque and it saves a gear change and another chance for wear on the clutch. The arguement for increasing economy is that it saves the energy required to make up for the gear change, whether it actually makes that much of a difference is debatable because in a modern car that's driven with care you shouldn't be going through clutches.

Quote from Scawen :

Anyone who likes to pull away in second, must not mind changing their clutch - which is surprising because that's a big job.

A large number of drivers sit in traffic jams with the clutch in in first rather than putting it in neutral :doh: which must account for much more clutch wear.

mmmm, how does the cluth wear if nothing is moving? :P oh wait, I think I maybe got it, dunno.

Agreed most cars have more gears than they NEED, but 1st is usually designed for starting. It's the middle gears that are unrequired, like 3rd and 4th (they could be replaced with a single 3rd gear of a ratio in between them.

Leaving the clutch pressed shouldn't cause it to wear much (it WILL wear, but only very very very slightly).

I can't see how starting in 2nd and labouring the engine will improve economy. Wasn't it proven that fast acceleration to a cruise speed is more economic that sticking it in top and taking ages to get to the same cruise speed like grannies do?

Quote from dave81983 :

Hey,

I just noticed in the UF1 I can do 43 Mph before the shift indicator comes on, I use a flotch setup and its quick. This seems a bit unrealistic to me. In my peugeot 306 diesel I can get to about 18 Mph before I have to change to second.

Also it seems to me that in all of the cars (except the race ones) you can got too quick in first gear. What is going on here?

Does anyone agree with me?

I can do ~34mph in my ~60 VW Polo in first gear before the limiter kicks in. Another thing: You drive a diesel, the UF1 is a petrol-powered vehicle; I don't know about it, but I think diesels use different gear ratios than petrol-powered cars

Quote from Blackout :

mmmm, how does the cluth wear if nothing is moving? :P oh wait, I think I maybe got it, dunno.

AFAIK the clutch-release bearing doesnt get lubricated when the cluch is 'in', that wears out

Thx for replies guys - especially Scawen (I love the interactivity of this dev team).

Anyway, just to clarify, by saying what my car could i wasnt suggesting that the UF1 should only be able to do 18 Mph in 1st I was just a bit suprised at the defference thats all.

I always wondered why I could do stupid mph in a low gear in LFS. Thanks for the answer guys

Seeing as the gearing in LFS is near infinitely adjustable with complete freedom (ooh yeah, baby ), first gear can be however long you like.

Quote from Scawen :

I've never heard of anyone in the habit of pulling away in second gear, unless they are aiming down a hill.

Anyone who likes to pull away in second, must not mind changing their clutch - which is surprising because that's a big job.

Hmm, my dad often pulls away from a standing start in second gear, quite easily. But then that's in a large turbodiesel 4x4 with quite low, close gears. First is almost redundant on a level or downhill road - no sooner has the heavy, slow gearbox engaged and you've got to change again to second.

My turbo Ibiza also has close gears and is fairly low geared (i.e. not good on the motorway with the engine turning over at @3300-4000rpm! Although that's depending on the speed too of course, officer...), but I can't pull away in second without having to slip the clutch way too much.

Quote from ajp71 :

A large number of drivers sit in traffic jams with the clutch in in first rather than putting it in neutral :doh: which must account for much more clutch wear.

uh ... no ?
besides the bits of the clutch that might get worn by that are totally different parts than the ones that get worn in a high gear start

Quote from Shotglass :

uh ... no ?
besides the bits of the clutch that might get worn by that are totally different parts than the ones that get worn in a high gear start

What actually goes in the clutch is irrelevant the parts for a clutch repair job are peanuts compared to the labour itself. As for wear though my Dad hasn't had any problems with any of his clutches despite starting in second in most cars he drives in my memory. There are others who I've known to sit in first who have and apparantley according to a mechanic I know most of his clutch jobs are a result of that rather than from clutch slip.

My Dad has pulled away in third by accident several times, and it's just pulled away like normal (although a bit sluggish compared to normal). I suppose that's what you get with a 5.0 litre V8 in 1050kg of car.

Depends a lot on the car, the gear ratios and the conditions IMO.