For anyone who just watched the Moto2 race. I don't think there was a more fitting way for Gresini Racing to finish their season... a perfect win as a tribute to a wonderful rider.

Quote from oscarhardwick :

For anyone who just watched the Moto2 race. I don't think there was a more fitting way for Gresini Racing to finish their season... a perfect win as a tribute to a wonderful rider.

Goddamn Stoner.

I was cheering for Spies, was glad he took Stoner over as it started raining. Brilliant drive there. Too bad about the speed of the Honda, too fast in the straight...

Quote from oscarhardwick :

For anyone who just watched the Moto2 race. I don't think there was a more fitting way for Gresini Racing to finish their season... a perfect win as a tribute to a wonderful rider.

Shame that Takahashi binned it, would've probably been a Gresini 1-2 otherwise

stoner pretty much showed he is the best rider on the grid this season, made pedrosa look second rate and dominated vettel style.

I bet ducati are missing him badly.

Quote from Mustafur :

stoner pretty much showed he is the best rider on the grid this season, made pedrosa look second rate and dominated vettel style.

I bet ducati are missing him badly.

Funny how he went from falling off in every race to winning the moment we got smaller engines and electronics messing up the action. If he can cope on the 1000cc bikes against the likes of Rossi and Spies then he can truely be called a great rider. Until then he is just the best of the 800cc class, and considering he has always been on the best bike that's still up for debate.

Mind you if he kept his mouth shut and stopped complaining about other riders, and how unfair it is that he's not as popular as Rossi then I might already consider him a great rider. Or if he went to Suzuki instead of Honda, and won the championship with them in the first season there. Also best rider of the season was Simoncelli for me, considering the bike he was on and comparing his results to his team mates.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Funny how he went from falling off in every race to winning the moment we got smaller engines and electronics messing up the action. If he can cope on the 1000cc bikes against the likes of Rossi and Spies then he can truely be called a great rider. Until then he is just the best of the 800cc class, and considering he has always been on the best bike that's still up for debate.

Mind you if he kept his mouth shut and stopped complaining about other riders, and how unfair it is that he's not as popular as Rossi then I might already consider him a great rider. Or if he went to Suzuki instead of Honda, and won the championship with them in the first season there. Also best rider of the season was Simoncelli for me, considering the bike he was on and comparing his results to his team mates.

I don't think ducati ever had the best bike, they always had the most power but the handling was way off, stoner managed to adapt he's riding style to the handling to provide the best combo, hence he is the only rider in ducatis history to do anything worthwhile with their bikes.

I think the Honda was the best this season though but stoners blowout over pedrosa asks questions over how good he could be.

Besides stoner made easy work of Hayden at ducati, yet rossi Is only slighty faster.

Simonchelli was using the factory Honda though, and he's team mate wasn't.

Allthough he would of lost out a bit by not having factory setups, he did have the best bike on the grid as a template.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Funny how he went from falling off in every race to winning the moment we got smaller engines and electronics messing up the action. If he can cope on the 1000cc bikes against the likes of Rossi and Spies then he can truely be called a great rider. Until then he is just the best of the 800cc class, and considering he has always been on the best bike that's still up for debate.

Mind you if he kept his mouth shut and stopped complaining about other riders, and how unfair it is that he's not as popular as Rossi then I might already consider him a great rider. Or if he went to Suzuki instead of Honda, and won the championship with them in the first season there. Also best rider of the season was Simoncelli for me, considering the bike he was on and comparing his results to his team mates.

Agreed 100%

Quote from Mustafur :

Simonchelli was using the factory Honda though, and he's team mate wasn't.

Allthough he would of lost out a bit by not having factory setups, he did have the best bike on the grid as a template.

That's true, I just wish we had the chance to see him have a long career and win multiple championships.

Stoner seems to have a unique riding style that really works with these rubbish 800cc bikes, that's why I want to see him do well on the 1000cc bikes before I judge him to be a great rider, because I'm convinced that without the electronics he would fall off on every corner like he used to. I'm ready to be proved wrong though. One thing is for certain though, he won't ever be a popular champion, he complains too much and if he needed to finish 5th to win a championship then that's exactly what he would aim to do.

Stoner needs the electronics to keep him on the limit, he doesn't have the natural ability that Rossi has, stick Stoner on one of those old 500cc bikes and he wouldn't make it out of the pitlane.

I'll agree stoner is basically the Alonso of motoGP but to write him off because you don't like him isn't really fair.

Remember though when he fell off he's bike alot last season it was on a bike made so Hayden could ride it better the ironic compromise was stoner couldn't ride it properly, (notice how the slidy rear end was replaced by the understeery front end).

We will see next year though I guess, but if the bike is good I think he will win again.

I meant before the 800cc class, he was back of the grid and falling off constantly. Ducati must have seen something in him though, otherwise it was a fluke that they managed to sign the one rider who could really master these bikes. Next years Ducati should be a blinder though, we know that Rossi can take his team and turn around even the worst of bikes, and Ducati are throwing all the money they have at them, so I predict that Rossi will be champion next season.

Just watched the Moto2 race too, couldn't hold back the tears watching Fausto ball his eyes out when Pirro took the win, the most amazing tribute you could ever have imagined.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

I meant before the 800cc class, he was back of the grid and falling off constantly. Ducati must have seen something in him though, otherwise it was a fluke that they managed to sign the one rider who could really master these bikes. Next years Ducati should be a blinder though, we know that Rossi can take his team and turn around even the worst of bikes, and Ducati are throwing all the money they have at them, so I predict that Rossi will be champion next season.

Just watched the Moto2 race too, couldn't hold back the tears watching Fausto ball his eyes out when Pirro took the win, the most amazing tribute you could ever have imagined.

Ok think about this, in 2006 it was he's debut season riding the most underfunded bike on the grid he consistently scores points made alot of mistakes yes, but he even managed a pole, infact he's debut season looks identical to simonchellis season this year. Only one massive difference simonchelli had a works Honda.

He's performance in 06 was deffinely outstanding given the bike that's for sure.

I think speculating about how drivers would do without driving aids is a bit of a fruitless conversation. The driving aids are tools of how to drive or ride faster and the sport is about going faster. Taking the benefit of all the things to the fullest is what wins races and championships. Not being fast on equipment that is not used in the races.

As a whole it is a bit of strange thing when people seem to think when talking about race cars that having more loose setup or preferring more oversteer is a sign of being better driver. I don't think that (prefering oversteery) proves anything about driving skill. It is after all just one tiny thing about the car setup and looking at the total scale of various skills required to go quicker and win the driving style does not have anything more than a curiosity value. And the same thing about driving aids. Those who are the quickest are the quickest.

In a way to have driving aids or not is the same thing that happens when the tire manufacturer changes for the series. Some people adjust quicker and go faster while others don't. Maybe Rossi is quicker than Stoner without the driving aids? Maybe Webber is quicker than Vettel with Bridgestones? Maybe Alonso is quicker on understeery car than Kimi on oversteery car? Does it make one more skillful than the other or is it just an argument about totally imaginery situation?

The 1000s are going to be clicked back a fair chunk though because they still are limited by 21 litres of race fuel. So they won't differ too much from the 800s in race spec.

I think Stoner will win next year without too much fuss. I don't subscribe to the the idea his style is just suited to the 800s. Reports from his early tests on the 1000 Honda suggest he's as quick as ever. I think Rossi was around 1.5-2 seconds off Stoner's pace... allegedly. Even taking into consideration track condition, tyres etc... that's a fair chunk of time. They are testing yet another new bike on Tuesday (Ali twin-spar) so that probably confirms previous GP12 designs were slow.

However Bridgestone are bringing a new tyre with a completely different construction for Tues & Wed, so maybe that'll be the more defining factor in the 2012 season.

Will Rossi and Ducati get near the front? Doubt it. The Ducati is just too far behind. Tuesday's test wil be telling. Within a second consistently and they have a chance, if not, no hope. Stoner is the fastest rider, on the fastest bike. it'll take a miracle next year to stop him.

Shame about Abraham, he always fails. He could've been 4th, meh.

Quote from Flame CZE :

Shame about Abraham, he always fails. He could've been 4th, meh.

Abraham has had a cracking season IMO. Okay, he was quick to fall during the races, but he often topped the other private Ducati entries on the timing sheets - not quite what you would've expected considering his record in lower categories.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I think speculating about how drivers would do without driving aids is a bit of a fruitless conversation. The driving aids are tools of how to drive or ride faster and the sport is about going faster. Taking the benefit of all the things to the fullest is what wins races and championships. Not being fast on equipment that is not used in the races.

As a whole it is a bit of strange thing when people seem to think when talking about race cars that having more loose setup or preferring more oversteer is a sign of being better driver. I don't think that (prefering oversteery) proves anything about driving skill. It is after all just one tiny thing about the car setup and looking at the total scale of various skills required to go quicker and win the driving style does not have anything more than a curiosity value. And the same thing about driving aids. Those who are the quickest are the quickest.

In a way to have driving aids or not is the same thing that happens when the tire manufacturer changes for the series. Some people adjust quicker and go faster while others don't. Maybe Rossi is quicker than Stoner without the driving aids? Maybe Webber is quicker than Vettel with Bridgestones? Maybe Alonso is quicker on understeery car than Kimi on oversteery car? Does it make one more skillful than the other or is it just an argument about totally imaginery situation?

I don't think comparing driving aids with driving style, (and prefered handling setup etc), is valid. Agreed that there is no one setup/style that proves one driver/rider is better than another, i.e. having an agressive/tail happy style doesn't make a rider intrinsically better than one with a smooth more progressive style.

However, driving aids are different because if they mean a bike needs less feel/sensitivity/finesse to be quick on then it does mean it reduces the talent required to ride it. Why? because it levels the playing field. Taken to it's extreme conclusion it would result in just needing to sit on the seat and open the throttle and hit the brakes on/off style and all the aids work out how much actuall power/braking force gets put down on the contact patch. Any monkey could do that.

The skill in being a good rider is exactly about the ability to ride around the faults / limits of the bike and being able to judge exactly how much throttle / brake / lean angle etc can be applied at any given time without going over the limit, and doing so by being able to feel when that limit is being reached for themselves not having an on board processor doing it for them.

The old (pre big bang) 500cc two strokes were far harder bikes to ride than todays machines, (because they took more finesse to control - the "limit" was harder and sharper), and the guys that rode them had to use a lot more skill than todays riders do to ride them fast. That's not to say that some of todays riders don't have the talent also.

Quote from gezmoor :

However, driving aids are different because if they mean a bike needs less feel/sensitivity/finesse to be quick on then it does mean it reduces the talent required to ride it. Why? because it levels the playing field.

But it can be also said that level playing field promotes talent. It is the same for everybody. Driving aid can also be one thing you need to master. Stoner has mastered it. Rossi hasn't and this comes from Rossi himself saying that:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/ ... newscriticismofrideraids/

Quote from gezmoor :

Taken to it's extreme conclusion it would result in just needing to sit on the seat and open the throttle and hit the brakes on/off style and all the aids work out how much actuall power/braking force gets put down on the contact patch. Any monkey could do that.

I don't think that extreme conclusion provides any kind of argument for this discussion. There is still a lot of driver and rider skill involved regardless of the comparatively small amount of electronics. Of course I'd prefer where there were none but it does not mean the current situation is in any way comparable to your example with monkeys.

The future may be worse but I don't think the current situation is as bad as you make it seem.

Testing so far today

Pedrosa - 1.32.939.
Stoner - 1.33.513
Spies - 1.33.561
Rossi 1.34.291

So no dramatic improvement from Ducati Vs the Hondas

Emmett is reporting that Hector Barbera says the new Ducati chassis is a big improvement. Much more front end feel.

1Stoner C.Repsol Honda Team1:32.385
2Pedrosa D.Repsol Honda Team+0.476
3Spies B.Yamaha Factory Racing+0.841
4Rossi V.Ducati Team+1.472

Fuel loads? Tyre choice? Test programme? Time of day the laps were set?

Can't draw any meaningful conclusions from those times.

Very true, and Emmett has just said Rossi looks like the old Rossi on the bike again so maybe the Ducati will be better for 2012.

1Pedrosa D.Repsol Honda Team1:31.807
2Stoner C.Repsol Honda Team+0.161
3Spies B.Yamaha Factory Racing+0.723
4Crutchlow C.Monster Yamaha Tech 3+1.626
5Barbera H.Pramac Racing Team+1.841
6Dovizioso A.Monster Yamaha Tech3+1.919
7Rossi V.Ducati Team+1.981
8Abraham K.Cardion AB Motoracing+2.235

safe to say Honda has built a rocket ship regardless of track conditions, fuel configurations etc...